Life Without the Bourgeosie

[OrderedAnarchy]

The vast majority of, at least American, citizens depend on the molding entertainments provided to keep them silent by the exploitive classes. They eat fast food, drive big cars, and fill their spare time with unproductive television, gaming, and masturbation. In a society with no bourgeosie, what will happen to the people who depend on the habits that it now supports? Will the proletariat itself learn to manage this McDonaldized society, or will they have to learn to live without the mind-numbing pleasures that the system once provided them with?

[Faux Real]

I think everyone will be able to enjoy entertainment and even some of the 'consumer culture' from today, however on a smaller scale and as I said before everyone will be able to participate in it. Due to new technology and robots making humans work human labour will become less needed and freer time to spend with friends, family, the community, etc.


masturbation

What's wrong with that?! :lol:

Edit: halfheartedly wrote a shitful paragraph and corrected a few things

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 09:35 pm
The vast majority of, at least American, citizens depend on the molding entertainments provided to keep them silent by the exploitive classes. They eat fast food, drive big cars, and fill their spare time with unproductive television, gaming, and masturbation. In a society with no bourgeosie, what will happen to the people who depend on the habits that it now supports? Will the proletariat itself learn to manage this McDonaldized society, or will they have to learn to live without the mind-numbing pleasures that the system once provided them with?
the beourgiouse are the ones who sustain the social and political alienation that motivates people to indulge in the culture you speak of.
In a society without a beourgiouse, each member of society will have equal incentive and opportunity to partake a fulfilling, constructive ,enlightening and healthy role that is divorced from the indulgencies of capitalist corner cutting and high cholestrol food.

[Tatarin]

In a society with no bourgeosie, what will happen to the people who depend on the habits that it now supports?

This probably depends on how society will look like at the time of the revolution. Fewer and fewer people have money to buy big cars and big homes.

As for fast food, it depends. There is much talk about the fat food, and how it causes deceases later in life, at least here in Europe.

After the revolution, I believe people will have more motivation to do something else than just "porn, fast-food and TV".

[Schrödinger's Cat]

I can't speak on the quality of masturbation, but television will most certainly take on more artistic value without all the commercials and corrupt media outlets shoving their products down our throats.

Fast food is not inherently bad, but the major chains have used their money to shove the names down our throats, quite literally. Those most likely to purchase fast food on a frequent basis [the poor] would be able to enjoy the finer foods in life.

I don't know if there would be a generation gap or not...

[The-Spark]

Isnt one of the goals of communism to make the new man? A new generation of humans brought up thinking not in a capitalist way, not addicted to fast food and porn, but a generation brought up in a communist society will simply not be addicted to such things.

[OrderedAnarchy]

So, once the bourgeosie is no more, the demand for fast food etc. will dwindle. But there are certain helthy hobbies, too, that are kept afloat only by national capitalism. Boating, diving, rowing, and skiing are all physically healthy, allow for socialization, and promote relationships. What will happen to these activities when their is no more system to provide them? Will demand for them, like for porn, simply go away?

[RedHal]

Let me ask you guys this, anarchists and communists all agree that they want to emancipate the human race and bring equality to all, correct? All these vices you list are 1st world decadent vices, the vast majority of the world's population is in the 3rd world where they live in squalor. In a fair and equal society the Earth's resources have to be shared equally, if Americans will not give up their Mcdonald's and SUVs then they'll be forced to.

When has healthy hobbies, that promote good mental and physical health, ever been considered "outlawed" in a classless society. A communist society will promote such activities. Although the beorgeous does create institions to profit out of healthy physical activities, they didn't invent nor own it. Anyone can go diving, boating, skiing, hiking, swimming etc.. without having to pay an outfitter. Why would they disappear if there were no system? In fact systems hinder these activies more, ex. laws on tresspassing.

[bcbm]

When has healthy hobbies, that promote good mental and physical health, ever been considered "outlawed" in a classless society. A communist society will promote such activities.

How will they be promoted, and who is going to care? I imagine human beings, classless society or no, are going to continue liking the things they've always liked: drinking to excess, eating to excess, fucking to excess, etc.

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by black coffee black [email protected] 24, 2007 01:57 pm

When has healthy hobbies, that promote good mental and physical health, ever been considered "outlawed" in a classless society. A communist society will promote such activities.

How will they be promoted, and who is going to care? I imagine human beings, classless society or no, are going to continue liking the things they've always liked: drinking to excess, eating to excess, fucking to excess, etc.
yes this.

beer, as a social symbol, precedes class society by many years.

be careful to not fall on the puritian trap of some sectors of the liberal left.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

A society without the capitalist class does not neccesarily mean a DoP or communism.

[RevMARKSman]

Isnt one of the goals of communism to make the new man? A new generation of humans brought up ... not addicted to fast food and porn, but a generation brought up in a communist society will simply not be addicted to such things.

Get this through your head: We're not trying to make a "world without sin." We are not trying to make humans fundamentally "better." We are not puritans.

"Sure as I know anything I know this, they will try again. Maybe on another world, maybe on this very ground swept clean. A year from now, ten, they'll swing back to the belief that they can make people... better."

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Every working person in the world could have a car. Granted, not every vehichle could be powered by oil, but the only reason we haven't moved on to better energy alternatives is because the capitalists in the car industry have become complacent and the oil entrepreneurs have bought out the bureaucrats. Allowing for solar energy to take off means less demand, and less demand means smaller profits and a competitor that will [eventually] overtake their monopoly.

I see a life without the bourgeoisie having the common person in every nation of the world in a better place, both socially and financially. When the richest 1% in the world own half the wealth...

[Kropotkin Has a Posse]

We could make drugs and alchohol so socially acceptable they are considered unexciting.

[Janus]

What will happen to these activities when their is no more system to provide them?
There is still a system which provides for demand and produces products necessary for such activities. The only difference is that they are now under the control and management of the working class.

[OrderedAnarchy]

Anyone can go diving, boating, skiing, hiking, swimming etc.I'm sure that you can ski without clothes, helmets, or skis..but try to understand that most people...cannot. :unsure:

[Raúl Duke]

Will the proletariat itself learn to manage this McDonaldized society, or will they have to learn to live without the mind-numbing pleasures that the system once provided them with?

While maybe part of these pleasures might be gone (most likely the false/Spectacle kind of pleasures) many of them will be maintain if the people want to.

The don't really need "to learn" how to manage it...they have been running and keeping this system going since it's existence. What they will learn one day is that they truly don't need any parasitic bosses anymore to keep society running.


I'm sure that you can ski without clothes, helmets, or skis..but try to understand that most people...cannot.

IF this equipment is necessary than people will organize collecitves/councils in charge of making this stuff.

You seem skeptical of the people having the power to run things without a boss/supervisor/etc...that kind of view is normally not an anarchist/left communist one...kinda like impying that the bourgeoisie is "needed" to keep things running.

[praxicoide]

I think that it's kind of a moot question, because a dramatic change in the method of production will change society's superstructure to the point that many of the superfluous market driven luxuries will not "have to be taken away", but will simply be gone, just like gladiator arenas were simply gone with the roman empire.

The same applies to art. There will be no need to censor anything, because once society changes, new art that reflects these changes will arise and the old will go to museums.

Philosophy provides a good example of this. No one needs to refute scholastics, the material conditions that allowed this brand of metaphysics no longer exists, and so people are no longer convinced by/care about these theories.

Marxism is, to my view, the most historically advanced philosophy, but it is being held back for ideological reasons by bourgeois philosophies. Once socialism is in place, these philosophies will lose their relevance, except as history.

[OrderedAnarchy]

You seem skeptical of the people having the power to run things without a boss/supervisor/etc...that kind of view is normally not an anarchist/left communist one...kinda like impying that the bourgeoisie is "needed" to keep things running.
i am suggesting that the bourgeosie is needed only to keep society running as it is. in order for civilization to continue without them, the West must change until it is no longer even recognizable. Right as it is, we do need the bourgeosie. The burger-flipper needs a paycheck from the petty-bourgeos storeowner, and the storeowner needs his cut from the bourgeos stockholders who own the franchise. right now, if a Mcdonald's were to collectivize and the workers were to find a way to buy their freedom, their store would fail, both because it would be run out of business by bourgeos propaganda and because this is capitalism, and destroying the bourgeosie alone will solve nothing. See my post, "Smash the State."

[Red Scare]

get rid of all the fast food in the world, all I request is that we keep quiznos :P :) :ph34r: except it would be ruled by the worker

[Raúl Duke]

the West must change until it is no longer even recognizable.

That's the goal..... ;)

[Red Scare]

I think it will take a long time for the people of the west (america most of all) to evolve into a state of not requiring the fruits/burdens of capitalism used to control the proletariat. Even we are probably addicted to lots of that stuff, TV, fast food, etc.

[OrderedAnarchy]

Yes, it will take many, many years. My point is only that capitalism and statehood themselves must go before the stockholders may fall.

[Raúl Duke]

My point is only that capitalism and statehood themselves must go before the stockholders may fall.

??? :huh:

stockholders need capitalism for their job to exist...

unless we are talking about "socialist stock" or something weird like that.... :unsure:

[OrderedAnarchy]

Err...That was the wrong word; .i meant bourgeois, not stockholder. The system that the bourgeoisie (may or may not have) created to give themselves a monopoly of economic power must be destroyed before the proletariat may seize that power. McDonald's, or even my Father's tiny, sputtering printshop, can not be run in current for by unspecialized workers. In order to be collectivized, the industry must first be so simple that an economist is not necessary; so must any industry it interacts with, so that the workers can self-manage without needing six or more years of bourgeois education. The system doesn't need to be this complicated; there are many laws in economics that are obviously there only to make business less accessible.

[MarxSchmarx]

Ever heard of a nifty capitalist invention called "advertising"? It's why we think we want McDonald's and new TVs etc...

Now, why is there advertising? To convince people to want things they don't need. Look, if they needed McDonald's french fries, they wouldn't need some creepy clown or super-model telling them "Eat McDonald's french fries" in lowd, catchy, and obnoxious moments on television.

Why do the bourgeoisie need to convince people to buy crap they don't need. If we didn't buy their garbage they would have to do something productive like plant a tree or read to a senile person, something other than make ever more money.

We work our asses off so these jerks can make money. We are exhausted, so we surrender at the end of the day to the tube. We have been alert all day, serving the MAN. So we let our guards down. Then the television tells us, in our exhausted, defeated state, "BUY BUY BUY my product. Then your problems will go away and you will look happy and hip and ..."

And they said religion was the opiate of the masses.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

Marketing and the development of new marketing techniques is a massive business. And effective methods get exported quickly. So, there is always a new array of methods to dazzle and confuse.

[RevMARKSman]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29, 2007 01:26 am
Ever heard of a nifty capitalist invention called "advertising"? It's why we think we want McDonald's and new TVs etc...

Now, why is there advertising? To convince people to want things they don't need. Look, if they needed McDonald's french fries, they wouldn't need some creepy clown or super-model telling them "Eat McDonald's french fries" in loud, catchy, and obnoxious moments on television.

Why do the bourgeoisie need to convince people to buy crap they don't need. If we didn't buy their garbage they would have to do something productive like plant a tree or read to a senile person, something other than make ever more money.

We work our asses off so these jerks can make money. We are exhausted, so we surrender at the end of the day to the tube. We have been alert all day, serving the MAN. So we let our guards down. Then the television tells us, in our exhausted, defeated state, "BUY BUY BUY my product. Then your problems will go away and you will look happy and hip and ..."

And they said religion was the opiate of the masses.
Actually my family was thinking of getting a bigger TV and we don't even watch advertisements...because a bigger TV makes it easier to see what's on it. Yeah, breakaway concept, I know. It must really be because we were brainwashed by The MAN!

I'm not denying the effectiveness of advertising in getting people to buy stuff they'll never use. But that's not the only reason people buy things they don't absolutely need. Humans will always want things that make life easier, or faster, or more exciting. You can't change that.

[OrderedAnarchy]

We are exhausted, so we surrender at the end of the day to the tube. I would add that sometimes the reason we eat at McDonald's is because the system has beaten us to within an inch of our lives; we are exhausted, we don't have the energy to cook a healthy meal, and so we fill our bodies with this fatty, greasy poison becauwe it's quick, easy, and filling. At least, that is why I eat it. :lol:

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by OA
The vast majority of, at least American, citizens depend on the molding entertainments provided to keep them silent by the exploitive classes. They eat fast food, drive big cars, and fill their spare time with unproductive television, gaming, and masturbation

There is nothing more appealing to the masses then someone dictating what they must eat, how they entertain themselves and how often they can jerk off.

Anarchism and Communism does not want to remove facets of modern life, we simply want to remove the exploitive nature of Capitalism.

If you feel compelled to stop spanking the monkey, sell your television and boycott grub joints feel free to do so.

I on the other hand will stick with real life issues such as class antagonism, racism and capitalist exploitation of the masses.

[OrderedAnarchy]

There is nothing more appealing to the masses then someone dictating what they must eat, how they entertain themselves and how often they can jerk off. It is the path of least resistance to allow another to dictate. People love the path of least resistance, for only on that path can they safely relax. McDonald's, Honda, and the Adult Industry all provide an easy, accessible (well maybe not Honda), and pleasurable way to feed, drive, and get off. I, you, anyone who partakes in eating burgers, driving cars, and beating off is driven by the system to do so. Destroy the system, and those ridiculous activisties will go out of style.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29, 2007 08:15 pm
It is the path of least resistance to allow another to dictate.
I think you would have been more honest if you said "it's the path of least resistance to allow me to dictate".

Inclusive your your rather obviouse delusion of grandeur, "the path of least" resistance is not something that any one person would be able to dictate.

If it was even a premise that one could in fact dictate in the first place!


People love the path of least resistance, for only on that path can they safely relax. McDonald's, Honda, and the Adult Industry all provide an easy, accessible (well maybe not Honda), and pleasurable way to feed, drive, and get of

I'm glad to know that you feel you understand exactly what's on the minds of a few billion people.

You must have a crystal ball or something.


. Destroy the system, and those ridiculous activisties will go out of style.

I smell the stink of "primitivism" here.

Now it makes sense.

[antipopdude]

In humanistic psyhology there is alot of focus on the basic human needs, after a revolution everyone should be able to satisfy these basic needs, food, shelter etc. And when these needs are beeing satisfied, the people will start thinking about self-realization and other things than these basic needs. Without the big researching industries and the capitalist system making people want to invent things for money, there is a chance that things that will gain mankind will be invented instead.

When it comes to entertainment, TV can be so much more entertaining than today. Today most TV programs (and commercials) are made for a younger audience (around the age of 12) and when all these programs and commercials are trying to reach out to the 12year olds it will make people think like 12 year olds. If a newsstory is longer than 2 minutes, cut it, noone are able to focus for that long. TV has to become more intelligent and has to be used in another way than it it is beeing today. I'll feel alot better without Paris Hilton on all my channels...

[Schrödinger's Cat]

I'm in total agreement with Vinny. The existance of fast food is completely different than having it shoved down our throats through our own public airwaves, schools, and highways. There's nothing wrong with TV, ipods, computers, fancy cars, burgers.

[OrderedAnarchy]

Now it makes sense.What the hell is your problem with me? Quit making snide remarks and tell us what you think will happen to McDonald's!

[Raúl Duke]

What you think will happen to McDonald's

McDonald's, in its current form, will most likely no longer exist.

It would be either a)abandoned (many of them would) or b) turned into a worker-controlled collective/council.

I can only speculate, but I think most franchises will be abandoned while resturants, diners, etc (the former properties of the petit-bourgeoisie) would remain but under worker's control. This is likely due to the design of the MD's workplace (built for mass-production of shoddy foods) versus those of most resturants, diners, etc. (which, while they might have some varying element of "mass production", they aren't as much as MD.)

Is that a good enough answer?

[MarxSchmarx]

turned into a worker-controlled collective/council.


Amen.


I can only speculate, but I think most franchises will be abandoned while resturants, diners, etc (the former properties of the petit-bourgeoisie) would remain but under worker's control. This is likely due to the design of the MD's workplace (built for mass-production of shoddy foods) versus those of most resturants, diners, etc. (which, while they might have some varying element of "mass production", they aren't as much as MD.)


Well, assuming People's Fast Food will in some sense be "cheaper" than sit-down top of the line restaurants in the Red Utopia, I hope they stay around.

There are days when all I want to do is stand in line, get my food, and go on a picnic with my loved ones. I don't always want to hear the GARÇON blabber about champagne.


But that's not the only reason people buy things they don't absolutely need. Humans will always want things that make life easier, or faster, or more exciting. You can't change that.

But people can get all this without partaking in a consumo-materialist feeding frenzy. I mean sky-diving lessons are well-within the means of even minimal wage employees in most developed countries.

So why are people so obsessed with the latest trinkets? Indeed, I doubt very, very seriously that consumerism will exist at the magnitude it does today without marketing.

It is amazing how much people can, and would rather, do without. I mean, c'mon, what difference does it really make if you have a 2005 or a 2007 ferari, or a 20 GB or 40 GB mp3 player?

Look at crap like Microsoft Office. Why do companies and people pay billions of dollars to get licensing when things like open office do the trick?

It boils down to branding. Ditto with mp3 players and fast cars. Demand is artificially manufactured. Any sane capitalist will tell you that's the surest way to profit. I hate to sound preachy, but marketing's centrality, ubiquity and pernicious scope should be axiomatic to any analysis of capitalist complacency by now.

[La Comédie Noire]

I'm so tired of it being asserted I like tv and alcohol because I was "told" to. Look I like watching 2 hours of Tv a day and drinking on weekends it helps me relax. Sometimes I'll read and write or go outside and play a sport. My goal is to make sure everyone on the face of the earth has these options. It's not inherentley evil or anything. Once again it's the ruling class using elements of society to it's advantage, not the elements themselves.

[Raúl Duke]

Well, assuming People's Fast Food will in some sense be "cheaper" than sit-down top of the line restaurants in the Red Utopia, I hope they stay around.

There are days when all I want to do is stand in line, get my food, and go on a picnic with my loved ones. I don't always want to hear the GARÇON blabber about champagne.

:) ;)

DO not worry. There will still be places just like those you described. However, I don't think these "fast food" places' workplaces will look like a McDonalds workplace.

About it being "cheaper", well in the communist version of this "Red Utopia" ( :P ) there will be no money.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by OrderedAnarchy+August 31, 2007 07:13 pm--> (OrderedAnarchy @ August 31, 2007 07:13 pm) What the hell is your problem with me? [/b]
My "problem" with you is simple, there is no room for primitivism in the modern era and it's our job as leftists to see that it remains where it belongs - in the stone age.

That means that whenever reactionary viewpoints are expressed, I will instinctively expose them for what they are:

Crapola!


Quit making snide remarks and tell us what you think will happen to McDonald's!

I would suspect that they would probably begin serving better food.

Food that we will enjoy dangling in front of your cave only to snatch it back again while you grunt, scream and toss around feces.


Originally posted by [email protected]
There will still be places just like those you described. However, I don't think these "fast food" places' workplaces will look like a McDonalds workplace.

Why do think the workplaces would be changed? Short of tossing out the "manager" I don't think it would be necessary to make any changes at all.

Capitalism has a great history of being incredibly efficient; after all "time is money".

I've always been amazed at how good the teamwork in my local McDonald's is. They are efficient, fast and friendly. The only thing that's unnecessary is the silly whip cracker.


Marx Shmarx
But people can get all this without partaking in a consumo-materialist feeding frenzy.

The problem with telling people what they can or can't have and what they should or shouldn't do is knowing when and where to "draw the line".

Considering the track record society has so far in this area, I think that we should simply let every individual judge for themselves what they feel is in their best interests.

If that means if someone chooses to geek out on a lab top over sky diving with you then so be it!

After all, the cure for cancer sure as hell ain't going to be found falling from 10,000 feet; it's going to be found by some nerd that's afraid of heights and has pet insects.

You dig?

[Kropotkin Has a Posse]

I can only speculate, but I think most franchises will be abandoned while resturants, diners, etc (the former properties of the petit-bourgeoisie) would remain but under worker's control. This is likely due to the design of the MD's workplace (built for mass-production of shoddy foods) versus those of most resturants, diners, etc. (which, while they might have some varying element of "mass production", they aren't as much as MD.)

I worked in a restaurant this summer and I think it's safe to say that probably none of them actually produce quality food. And none of them are pleasant places to work either.

After capitalism people who don't eat at home could share a large kitchen somewhere and they all would help to prepare it and clean up after.

Restaurants are money-makers and they are organised without any thought for the workers.

[Vinny Rafarino]

After capitalism people who don't eat at home could share a large kitchen somewhere and they all would help to prepare it and clean up after.

No thanks.

We outgrew hippy style communalism in the 70s.

[Comrade Rage]

McDonald's rules. They have those 42oz sodas for 89 cents each summer. They also have those double cheeseburgers for a buck. I hardly ever eat at home, so I go for the good food.

Mc Donald&#39;s corporate structure will have to be done away with, resulting in larger incomes for the workers, and lower prices for people who eat there. Other than that they run FOXNEWS all day, which can get annoying. <_<

BTW Burger King does have better food, though.
So long as these places are unionized they should stay.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

After capitalism people who don&#39;t eat at home could share a large kitchen somewhere and they all would help to prepare it and clean up after.

That&#39;s not realistic at all. It&#39;s a nice thought, grant you, but even I&#39;d get lazy once in awhile and leave my gum wrapper on the table.

Capitalism has many flaws, but an abundance of good services and wants is not one of them. Concern for the environment and public health, yeah. The notion of it being bad to intervene in "private business" would be obsolete since business would operate under the fingers of the community. But attacking ipods, McDonalds, fancy computers, video games, and the other advancements made since Adam Smith croaked -- humanity has always strived to better itself. We aren&#39;t going to be better off limiting our potential just to determined NEEDS.

[OrderedAnarchy]

My "problem" with you is simple, there is no room for primitivism in the modern era and it&#39;s our job as leftists to see that it remains where it belongs - in the stone age.I dunno what the fuck "primitivism" is. I will assume that it is an ideology advocating a return to "primitive" society, an ideology that I do not follow. I believe that Adam Smith&#39;s world will one day wash away, leaving only the framework that once held it up. One is capitalism, in which the bourgeoisie has made a foul den for itself, and the other is anarchism, communism, and autonomy.