Shere Hite: Male and Female sexuality

[Herman]

One of the people I admire is Shere Hite for her outstanding work on sexuality, for both genders.

In one of her books she answers questions posed by normal people who email her or write letters and she talks about how the patriarchal way of engaging on sexual intercourse (penetration) was an unsatisfactory way for both partners to enjoy sex, concluding that because of this there is a certain disillusion with our partner.

For example, men tend to worry too much about the size of their penis or if they're doing something wrong during sexual intercourse. Usually penetration is thought to be the way for women to have an orgasm. This leaves the man asking himself why she doesn't enjoy or why she pretends to have an orgasm. He is unsure of what to do.

According to Hite, 99% of the women get an orgasm through clitoral stimulation and at an early age many are told by their parents that it is wrong to masturbate and that sex is about him simply 'doing her' the old fashioned way.

Thoughts?

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by Red Herman+--> (Red Herman)and she talks about how the patriarchal way of engaging on sexual intercourse (penetration)...[/b]

I don't accept that penetrative sex is innately patriarchal, or reinforces patriarchy.


Red Herman
usually penetration is thought to be the way for women to have an orgasm.

Is this really the case though? I think these days there's a greater awareness amongst hetero men of the importance of clitoral stimulation during sex and of the key role it plays in the female orgasm... but whether said men choose to act on this awareness is another matter entirely!


and at an early age many are told by their parents that it is wrong to masturbate and that sex is about him simply 'doing her' the old fashioned way.

Sure, i don't think that's a controversial point to make - society is full of social conservatives (something orthodox religion and other systems of superstition foster).

[Mujer Libre]

Originally posted by bgm
I don't accept that penetrative sex is innately patriarchal, or reinforces patriarchy.

I think RedHerman needs to clarify the point- i.e. whether this author thinks that penetrative sex is inherently patriarchal (i.e. the loony position) or that the way penetrative sex is reified and treated as the only kind of "valid" sex is the problem- which makes perfect sense.

I think the point about women's orgasms is a bit outdated though. These days there's a huge focus on getting women to orgasm (I have a friend who wrote a thesis about this) but that it's less about the woman than it is about allowing the guy to prove himself (see threads in chitchat for examples of this!) and is thus a continuation of the old "how big is your cock?" thing. Of course this isn't the case all the time- it just seems to be a general trend.

[Freigemachten]

Originally posted by bleeding gums malatesta+August 22, 2007 03:50 pm--> (bleeding gums malatesta @ August 22, 2007 03:50 pm)
Red Herman
and she talks about how the patriarchal way of engaging on sexual intercourse (penetration)...

I don't accept that penetrative sex is innately patriarchal, or reinforces patriarchy.

[/b]
Interestingly, I have found in personal experience and in talking to friends that many girls who can have an orgasm through sexual intercourse do so when 'on top' or 'in control'. Also, again from the same sources, I've found that guys are cool with that, and rather enjoy it.

So it is arguable in fact, that good and effective sexual intercourse is actually matriarchal and creates a passive male character in the sexual experience.

edit
This has the potential to be a really good and interesting discussion, as long as it stays factual and we don't get any of the cosmo "stick your finger up his ass" bullshit.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by Freigemachten+September 02, 2007 11:53 am--> (Freigemachten @ September 02, 2007 11:53 am)
Originally posted by bleeding gums [email protected] 22, 2007 03:50 pm

Red Herman
and she talks about how the patriarchal way of engaging on sexual intercourse (penetration)...

I don't accept that penetrative sex is innately patriarchal, or reinforces patriarchy.


Interestingly, I have found in personal experience and in talking to friends that many girls who can have an orgasm through sexual intercourse do so when 'on top' or 'in control'. Also, again from the same sources, I've found that guys are cool with that, and rather enjoy it.

So it is arguable in fact, that good and effective sexual intercourse is actually matriarchal and creates a passive male character in the sexual experience. [/b]
It is arguable, but without a bit more evidence than "a few of my mates say so" I would say that all you can really claim, given empirical evidence, is that good and effective* sexual intercourse is actually matriarchal when done with these mates of yours. I on the other hand would argue that how people have sex, unless force is involved, is neither one nor the other and it is odd to me that people would ask you otherwise.


Either that or you could stick your finger up his arse.


*Whatever that means.

[Bilan]

In one of her books she answers questions posed by normal people who email her or write letters and she talks about how the patriarchal way of engaging on sexual intercourse (penetration)

I don't fully understand this point.
How?

[Freigemachten]

Originally posted by Jazzratt+September 02, 2007 01:04 pm--> (Jazzratt @ September 02, 2007 01:04 pm)
Originally posted by Freigemachten+September 02, 2007 11:53 am--> (Freigemachten @ September 02, 2007 11:53 am)
bleeding gums [email protected] 22, 2007 03:50 pm

Red Herman
and she talks about how the patriarchal way of engaging on sexual intercourse (penetration)...

I don't accept that penetrative sex is innately patriarchal, or reinforces patriarchy.


Interestingly, I have found in personal experience and in talking to friends that many girls who can have an orgasm through sexual intercourse do so when 'on top' or 'in control'. Also, again from the same sources, I've found that guys are cool with that, and rather enjoy it.

So it is arguable in fact, that good and effective sexual intercourse is actually matriarchal and creates a passive male character in the sexual experience. [/b]
It is arguable, but without a bit more evidence than "a few of my mates say so" I would say that all you can really claim, given empirical evidence, is that good and effective* sexual intercourse is actually matriarchal when done with these mates of yours. I on the other hand would argue that how people have sex, unless force is involved, is neither one nor the other and it is odd to me that people would ask you otherwise.


Either that or you could stick your finger up his arse.


*Whatever that means. [/b]
Perhaps enjoyable is a better word, by effective I was implying that all participants reach climax, this being the intent of recreational sex. Some research would be required yes, perhaps some polling and surveys. Not that it widens my base of sample at all, but I will say I only took the females' word on the first bit. So it's not just my guy friends sayin "O she got on top and was totally into it".

As for the neutrality of sex, yes when it is concentual it is clearly not overtly male driven, however certain positions are more 'male-centric' for lack of a better descriptor i suppose. Missionary position for example, was taught by missionaries as the only "right way" to have sex, puts the male in control of the action, and again, in my experience and according to girls I have talked to, is less rewarding.

[guerilla E]

I think, for the good of science, everyone should go out and conduct some field experiments.

As for the debate about sex; I think the broad nature of human personality and character would make it very difficult, not to mention the taboo, about obtaining any empirical evidence. From first or second hand evidence, I would say that there is a diversity about how rewarding certain actions can be during the act of sex.

As for the positions, I have noticed that some positions do make the act more male driven and others give total control to the partner. Their symbolism or underlying psychological effects are simply up for debate.

[Freigemachten]

Originally posted by guerilla [email protected] 09, 2007 10:25 pm
I think, for the good of science, everyone should go out and conduct some field experiments.

As for the debate about sex; I think the broad nature of human personality and character would make it very difficult, not to mention the taboo, about obtaining any empirical evidence. From first or second hand evidence, I would say that there is a diversity about how rewarding certain actions can be during the act of sex.

As for the positions, I have noticed that some positions do make the act more male driven and others give total control to the partner. Their symbolism or underlying psychological effects are simply up for debate.
Field experimentation would not be as effective as say, interveiw in this situation. People can fake orgasms or pretend to enjoy the situation more if they suspect they are being judged on such standards.

[guerilla E]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 04:40 am
Field experimentation would not be as effective as say, interveiw in this situation. People can fake orgasms or pretend to enjoy the situation more if they suspect they are being judged on such standards.
That is true. Looks like we will have to get invasive on this one. Probes, heart rate monitors, cameras - the whole lot. Interviews may add to the data, remember diversity in data collection only enrichen the conclusion!

Speaking of which, interviews may be biased too, as there would be an element of reluctance to disclose answers with 100% honesty. I don't think many people would proudly say they faked most of their orgasms (further more, especially true if its with their current partner!)

[Freigemachten]

Originally posted by guerilla E+September 10, 2007 05:13 pm--> (guerilla E @ September 10, 2007 05:13 pm)
[email protected] 10, 2007 04:40 am
Field experimentation would not be as effective as say, interveiw in this situation. People can fake orgasms or pretend to enjoy the situation more if they suspect they are being judged on such standards.
That is true. Looks like we will have to get invasive on this one. Probes, heart rate monitors, cameras - the whole lot. Interviews may add to the data, remember diversity in data collection only enrichen the conclusion!

Speaking of which, interviews may be biased too, as there would be an element of reluctance to disclose answers with 100% honesty. I don't think many people would proudly say they faked most of their orgasms (further more, especially true if its with their current partner!) [/b]
Watch the movie Kinsey. Its about some one who did exactly this and got some shocking results. He found that people were actually more likely to be honest in one on one interveiws than with written questionaires, and he built in certain trips in his questions to expose lies and inconsistencies. Overall, people are more likely to relate to a person who guarentees confidentiality than a survey.