early christian communities

[spartan]

I have read and heard many a time that early Christian communities practiced a form of Socialism is this true?

I have also heard that these communoties were self sufficient and that an appointed council of religious elders took everything produced and split it into equal shares for everyone who lived in the community.

So minus the religion could this be, if true, a good working model of a Socialist utopia for us in the future?

[freakazoid]

1 Samuels 8

So all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah. 5 They said to him, "You are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways; now appoint a king to lead [a] us, such as all the other nations have."

6 But when they said, "Give us a king to lead us," this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the LORD. 7 And the LORD told him: "Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. 8 As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. 9 Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will do."

10 Samuel told all the words of the LORD to the people who were asking him for a king. 11 He said, "This is what the king who will reign over you will do: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. 12 Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. 15 He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. 16 Your menservants and maidservants and the best of your cattle [b] and donkeys he will take for his own use. 17 He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. 18 When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, and the LORD will not answer you in that day."

1 Timothy 6



9People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. 10For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.


Matthew 6,


19"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.





24"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.


Levitivus 25


35 " 'If one of your countrymen becomes poor and is unable to support himself among you, help him as you would an alien or a temporary resident, so he can continue to live among you. 36 Do not take interest of any kind [a] from him, but fear your God, so that your countryman may continue to live among you. 37 You must not lend him money at interest or sell him food at a profit. 38 I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt to give you the land of Canaan and to be your God.

39 " 'If one of your countrymen becomes poor among you and sells himself to you, do not make him work as a slave. 40 He is to be treated as a hired worker or a temporary resident among you; he is to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 41 Then he and his children are to be released, and he will go back to his own clan and to the property of his forefathers. 42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. 43 Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God.


Mark 4,


17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 19You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.'[d]"

20"Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy."

21Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

22At this the man's face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!"

24The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, "Children, how hard it is[e] to enter the kingdom of God! 25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."


Acts 4,


32All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. 33With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. 34There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.

[spartan]

Wow!

These bits from the Bible are great!

I didnt know certain parts like this existed because you usually only here the bad parts, and rightfully so i might add, but still this is great.

Heres a question: Why do you think the Christians eventually stopped the sharing equally in their communities?

Could it be that the elders got corrupt taking more then was needed then using God as an excuse saying the lord demands it? (Much like Kings say they rule as Gods representatives on earth as an excuse for them having so much power and to do what ever they want).

[Saint Street Revolution]

The ideology of Christian Communism indicates that in bibilical times, they practiced Communism. I think this is true.

[spartan]

Does modern day Liberation Theology advocate this early Christian Socialism as the ideal which people should strive for?

[freakazoid]

Forgot to mention some things, www.jesusradicals.com A Christian anarchist site. Two Christian anarchist authors Leo Tolstoy and Jacques Ellul

[gilhyle]

Worth noting this:
http://www.marxists.org/archive/kautsky/19...ist/ch09.htm#s3 (http://www.marxists.org/archive/kautsky/1908/christ/ch09.htm#s3)

His conclusion was:

"Today communism in the primitive Christian sense, that is sharing, is irreconcilable with the progress of production, with the existence of society. "

While studies of early Christian communities have developed immeasurably since then, the basic line of his argument has not, I think, been overturned.

[Axel1917]

This is also a good read on the subject at hand:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works...anity/index.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894/early-christianity/index.htm)

[spartan]

Thank you all for your responses!

I am starting to change my mind on religion and Socialism as i now think that they could work well together.

Dont you think left wing parties in elections should be using this to try and get religious people who otherwise wouldnt vote for us to do just that and vote?

[gilhyle]

I was gonna write 'I don't see how you can think that'....but actually I do see how you can think that and the way to think that is to take appearances for realities. Ignore Christianity for a moment, and just look up Axel1917's link where Engels writes as follows about Islam:

"A peculiar antithesis to this was the religious risings in the Mohammedan world, particularly in Africa. Islam is a religion adapted to Orientals, especially Arabs, i.e., on one hand to townsmen engaged in trade and industry, on the other to nomadic Bedouins. Therein lies, however, the embryo of a periodically recurring collision. The townspeople grow rich, luxurious and lax in the observation of the "law." The Bedouins, poor and hence of strict morals, contemplate with envy and covetousness these riches and pleasures. Then they unite under a prophet, a Mahdi, to chastise the apostates and restore the observation of the ritual and the true faith and to appropriate in recompense the treasures of the renegades. In a hundred years they are naturally in the same position as the renegades were: a new purge of the faith is required, a new Mahdi arises and the game starts again from the beginning. That is what happened from the conquest campaigns of the African Almoravids and Almohads in Spain to the last Mahdi of Khartoum who so successfully thwarted the English. It happened in the same way or similarly with the risings in Persia and other Mohammedan countries. All these movements are clothed in religion but they have their source in economic causes; and yet, even when they are victorious, they allow the old economic conditions to persist untouched. So the old situation remains unchanged and the collision recurs periodically. In the popular risings of the Christian West, on the contrary, the religious disguise is only a flag and a mask for attacks on an economic order which is becoming antiquated. This is finally overthrown, a new one arises and the world progresses."

Now consider this incredibly succesful islamic movement described at the attached link about the Qarmatians as an example of this.

http://i-cias.com/e.o/qarmatians.htm

The point is religion produces (i.e. gives form to) communist sentiment of redistribution in many societies - but that is no basis for the establishment of a socialist movement.

In this society, not only do we see communes and liberation theologians and well meaning religious people protesting against the Iraq war etc, but we do occasionally see more seriously left wing religious people.

We must ask ourselves not what does this 'appear' to be, but what is it REALLY.

By the same token do we really think that we can use quotes from the bible to turn people into communists ? Firstly, it is clear that all religions are selective in their use of their own founding documents. The fact that you can find a quote to contradict them from their own religious text rarely disturbs them and rarely convinces them BECAUSE all major religions necessarily have a critical relationship to their founding texts. We as Marxists know that that is because, as Engels says, 'they have their source in economic causes'. As a result we know that religions have socio-economic roles in their societies and those determine whether and how the religion influences people's politics, not the presence or absence of a communist sentiment in their founding texts.

Of course its useful to embarras them by quoting these, but its wrong to turn that into a political strategy. Quoting them uses their founding texts against the false self-consciousness that makes them think they 'follow' their founding texts. Building a strategy on thinking their founding texts really justify communism is entering into collusion with that false self consciousness, rather than undermining it.

[luxemburg89]

ive read and heard many a time that early christian communities practiced a form of communism is this true? i also heard that they were self sufficient and that an appointed council of religious elders took everything produced and split it into equal shares for everyone in the community. im guessing also that early christianity was not or could not afford to be racist. so minus the religion could this be if true a good working model of communist utopia for us in the future?


No this is utter nonesense. Communism is against all forms of heirarchy and religion (be it worshipping an emperor or a tree or a God) is the highest form of religion. It makes an idol of that which you worship, you perceive it to be higher than you, and higher than others. Religion and leftism CANNOT coincide - religion is, like capitalism, something we must fight.

Christianity is racist. For example:


The Lord said to me [Moses], ‘See, I have begun to give Sihon and his land over to you. Begin now to take possession of his land.’ 32 So when Sihon came out against us, he and all his people for battle at Jahaz, 33 the Lord our God gave him over to us; and we struck him down, along with his offspring and all his people. 34 At that time we captured all his towns, and in each town we utterly destroyed men, women, and children. We left not a single survivor. 35 Only the livestock we kept as spoil for ourselves, as well as the plunder of the towns that we had captured. 36 From Aroer on the edge of the Wadi Arnon (including the town that is in the wadi itself) as far as Gilead, there was no citadel too high for us. The Lord our God gave everything to us
Deuteronomy 2, The Bible

It also praises enslaving people for 6 years:


If a member of your community, whether a Hebrew man or a Hebrew woman, is sold* to you and works for you for six years, in the seventh year you shall set that person free. 13 And when you send a male slave* out from you a free person, you shall not send him out empty-handed. 14 Provide liberally out of your flock, your threshing-floor, and your wine press, thus giving to him some of the bounty with which the Lord your God has blessed you. 15 Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God redeemed you; for this reason I lay this command upon you today
Deuteronomy 14

And Killing Homosexuals.


If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them.

So, no we cannot use christianity as a model - particularly as looking so far back for models can be borderline primitivism... Christianity is a belief in the bible (or God if you want), a belief in the bible (Or God) is a belief in heirarchy, a belief in heirarchy is fascism (Feudalism).

Despite what idiots like Freakazoid say, the bible and christianity is no friend of the left. It should remain what it has always been to freedom, one of its greatest enemies.

EDIT-


dont you think left wing parties in elections should be using this to try and get religious people who otherwise wouldnt vote for us to do just that and vote?


That's a good question. I think, as some members of the working-class are religious, we must be pragmatic and perhaps make concessions, at leats in our rhetoric for now. Once socialist society is established we have to work to destroy religion though, no matter how slowly. It is heirarchy against anti-heirarchy. it is religion against freedom when it comes down to it. While religion exists we will never see communism, we will be stuck in a deluded form of State-Capitalism

[Yardstick]

So do you not consider a christian communist a comrade then? And if not, how would you react if one were fighting against the same injustices as you?

[Genosse Kotze]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 10:46 pm
wow these bits from the bible are great! i didnt know certain parts like this existed because you usually only here the bad parts and rightfully so i might add but still this is great. heres a question why do you think they stopped the sharing equally? the elders got corrupt taking more then was needed then using god as an excuse saying the lord demands it? much like kings say they rule as gods representatives on earth as an excuse for them having so much power and to do what ever they want.
Well, once the Romans started getting into Christianity I think it was all down hill from there. There were a bunch of diffrent councils (in Carthege, and Nicea, etc.) where they tryed to stadardize Christianity and stamp out Arianism and a lot of Gnostic tendencies. But today you still have Menonites and Amish communities which try, to one degree or another, to recapture the simple, communalism of early Christianity.

And I guess some monastic orders are somewhat unique in this respect as well, but I don't really know enough about that to really comment on it, but I do find it very interesting. If I ever wanted to drop out of the rat race altogeather, running of to a monestary always seemed like a viable option. And if I had to take a vow of scilence, then they would never have much oportunity to see what a disbeilever I am :D

[NorthStarRepublicML]

(edit: in the late 1300's- early 1400'S) The Hussites (followers of Jan Hus) are generally recognized as proto-communists and many Marxists identify the Hussite movement as a economic and social struggle against feudal Europe, a movement that in turn inspired Martin Luther and the Reformation shortly after.

they demanded

1. Freedom to preach the Word of God.
2. Celebration of the Lord's Supper in both kinds (bread and wine to priests and laity alike).
3. No profane power for the clergy.
4. The same law for laity and priests.

their community at Tabor founded by Jan Zizka (their most prominent leader and warrior) is often looked at as an early example of socialism. Zizka was also one of the first generals that trained peasants and ignobles to be soldiers, a task generally considered to be the duty of knights and those of noble birth at that time.

this guy was a genius, pioneering the War Wagon, early firearms to destroy formations of Knights, and guerrilla warfare (the Beautiful rides).

you can read about the Hussites on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussite

and this is a paper that one of our members wrote about the Hussite Movement in Bohemia:

http://northstarrepublicml.googlepages.com/hussitewars

[freakazoid]

Communism is against all forms of heirarchy and religion

Communism is a form of economics, it has nothing to do with religion.


Christianity is racist. For example:

It wasn't about race. Do you know anything about the people that they fought against?


It also praises enslaving people for 6 years:

Not exactly a "slave".



Despite what idiots like Freakazoid say, the bible and christianity is no friend of the left.

So am I no friend of the left? I would very much like to stop the Minuteman, and the wall... violently if needed. Would you not allow me in your ranks? If I was part of some movement that you was a part of would you ostracize me from your ranks? All because I am religious? Sounds like it is people like you who are traitors to the movement. You would sacrifice reaching communism/anarchy if it meant sticking it to a religious person, <_<


And Killing Homosexuals.

I&#39;ve already talked about this.


it is religion against freedom when it comes down to it.

Even if I was for anarchy?

I noticed that you didn&#39;t actually respond to the passages that I posted...