Log in

View Full Version : Theists should go existentialist!



Genosse Kotze
18th August 2007, 10:04
I was watching a debate about religion on youtube which involved that scoundrel Christopher Hitchens, and since I loath him so much I felt that I just had to come up with an argument against what he was saying, even though he is, like it or not, a fellow atheist. So, there was a point where they were all discussing the history of the theism vs. atheism debate, where they brought up all the past attempts to prove God's existence (the Cartesian one, the 'logical proof' Leibnitz wrote down, etc.), how atheists have countered these and how theists now have finally given up trying to prove God's existence as an argument they can't ever win, and have retreated to "relying on faith" as a means of shutting down all debate on the matter. Even though this is a position which can't be disproved especially, since it doesn't even try and present any cogent argument for belief in God, Hitchens said that religion should be scrapped anyway since, at its core, it demands the sacrifice of people's reason. And it is here where I got the idea that religious people have a potentially great counter-argument in existentialism of all places, which I'm going to try and outline here.

First off, I have to give a brief run-down of Jean Paul Sartre's characterization of our existence. Sartre's central idea here is that, when it comes to humans, 'existence precedes essence'. So, there is no 'human nature' and we weren't designed for anything specific, as a stapler is created from an idea first, and only comes into being from this idea. Since there isn't any ideal for us to conform to in this already terrifying universe, that makes matters even more terrifying, because now there is absolutely nothing preventing other people from going on a killing spree or whatever, because it wouldn't even be wrong since it doesn't run counter to what being human means (it means nothing). So, in short, we are all totally free and it totally sucks!

This is usually the place where one of my left-wing atheist comrades would come in and say that this is why religion was invented: to control people from doing all sorts of crazy things like killing their bosses and making revolution. I think Sartre personally would have gone along with that, but he also said that reason is esentially no different, and, ironically, refers to it as 'bad faith'. The argument goes as follows: since we get cast into this dystopian existence without having any say in the matter, because people, once in existence, are totally free to do whatever and there is nothing stopping them from being as violent and as crazy as they want, we have good reason to be scared shitless! Since this freedom we are all condemned to experience is so horrible and frightening we need to feel comforted and want to believe it isn't so. The solution? We came up with the idea that people are reasonable. That way we can now walk down the street without fear of getting abducted and living through the plot of the next Texas Chainsaw Massacre movie because we have faith that people are reasonable and don't do that sort of thing, even in spite of countless examples of people's actions to the contrary.

So, when Christopher Hitchens says that religion demands the sacrifice of people's reason, a possible theistic way of rephrasing that could be that religion demands the sacrifice of an illusion :o . Certainly Christians, Muslims, etc. would have a tremendously difficult (down right impossible) time rectifying their beliefs about existence with those of Sartre's, but theism and existentialism aren't mutually exclusive. God may very well exist, but it just doesn't matter. We could even be certain of God's existence, but it wouldn't change our plight of freedom in the least because we still wouldn't know anything about the nature of God, of our own nature, more importantly, or what God would want from us.

If you're still not going for it, at least grant me that, during your next argument with a Christian, it would be refreshing to hear him/her quoting from Sartre than from the book of Revelations!

Rosa Lichtenstein
18th August 2007, 10:26
Well, quite apart from the fact that it is not a good idea to try to defend the incomprehensible (religious belief) by means of the obscure (anything by Sartre), this a priori social psychology of his (as you summarise it) is thoroUghly bourgeois, for it assumes that we enter the world as social atoms and appropriate our own individual view of it, of others, and of our place in it.

This is probably better off in the religion thread.

Genosse Kotze
18th August 2007, 10:35
Originally posted by Rosa [email protected] 18, 2007 09:26 am
Well, quite apart from the fact that it is not a good idea to try to defend the incomprehensible (religious belief) by means of the obscure (anything by Sartre), this a priori social psychology of his (as you summarise it) is thoroUghly bourgeois, for it assumes that we enter the world as social atoms and appropriate our own individual view of it, of others, and of our place in it.

This is probably better off in the religion thread.
...Does that mean you don't wike me, Wosa? :( Cuz I wike you.

Here's a wose I typed just for oo . :wub:

----{-----{[email protected]

Volderbeek
18th August 2007, 10:40
Originally posted by Genosse [email protected] 18, 2007 05:04 am
he also said that reason is esentially no different, and, ironically, refers to it as 'bad faith'.
It's the Unity of Opposites: you need to have faith in your reason and a reason to have faith. :lol:

Le People
19th August 2007, 04:03
Greatly put. The only way we can have reason is if we just agree on some absurd criterion for reason. Gotta love Ole Sartre!

Publius
19th August 2007, 04:26
I was watching a debate about religion on youtube which involved that scoundrel Christopher Hitchens, and since I loath him so much I felt that I just had to come up with an argument against what he was saying, even though he is, like it or not, a fellow atheist.

What Hitchens have you read?



First off, I have to give a brief run-down of Jean Paul Sartre's characterization of our existence. Sartre's central idea here is that, when it comes to humans, 'existence precedes essence'. So, there is no 'human nature' and we weren't designed for anything specific, as a stapler is created from an idea first, and only comes into being from this idea. Since there isn't any ideal for us to conform to in this already terrifying universe, that makes matters even more terrifying, because now there is absolutely nothing preventing other people from going on a killing spree or whatever, because it wouldn't even be wrong since it doesn't run counter to what being human means (it means nothing). So, in short, we are all totally free and it totally sucks!

I actually don't think most existentialists (Sartre and Camus) thought freedom sucked.



This is usually the place where one of my left-wing atheist comrades would come in and say that this is why religion was invented: to control people from doing all sorts of crazy things like killing their bosses and making revolution. I think Sartre personally would have gone along with that, but he also said that reason is esentially no different, and, ironically, refers to it as 'bad faith'. The argument goes as follows: since we get cast into this dystopian existence without having any say in the matter, because people, once in existence, are totally free to do whatever and there is nothing stopping them from being as violent and as crazy as they want, we have good reason to be scared shitless! Since this freedom we are all condemned to experience is so horrible and frightening we need to feel comforted and want to believe it isn't so. The solution? We came up with the idea that people are reasonable. That way we can now walk down the street without fear of getting abducted and living through the plot of the next Texas Chainsaw Massacre movie because we have faith that people are reasonable and don't do that sort of thing, even in spite of countless examples of people's actions to the contrary.

We don't have to have faith that it's true. If it weren't true, we'd all be dead. It's a simple fact that most people aren't psychopathic killers and wouldn't want to be. What you or I or anyone else wants has nothing to do with it.

And since we're on our existentialist kick let's not forget that we don't have free will anyway, so what's the fuss?



So, when Christopher Hitchens says that religion demands the sacrifice of people's reason, a possible theistic way of rephrasing that could be that religion demands the sacrifice of an illusion :o . Certainly Christians, Muslims, etc. would have a tremendously difficult (down right impossible) time rectifying their beliefs about existence with those of Sartre's, but theism and existentialism aren't mutually exclusive. God may very well exist, but it just doesn't matter. We could even be certain of God's existence, but it wouldn't change our plight of freedom in the least because we still wouldn't know anything about the nature of God, of our own nature, more importantly, or what God would want from us.

You've just now discovered the Christian existentialism that Kierkegaard and Dostoevsky created 150 years or so ago?

Don't look to Sartre, look to Dostoevsky. "If there is no God then everything is permitted." Dostoevsky made the exact point you're making about atheist morality in the Brothers Karamazov and, if you'll permit me, he did it with much more power and artistry. :lol:

Here's an important passage from the book, titled 'The Grand Inquisitor'. Tell me how you think this matches up with your ideas: http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist/dostgi.html

Genosse Kotze
19th August 2007, 06:07
Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 03:26 am


I was watching a debate about religion on youtube which involved that scoundrel Christopher Hitchens, and since I loath him so much I felt that I just had to come up with an argument against what he was saying, even though he is, like it or not, a fellow atheist.

What Hitchens have you read?



First off, I have to give a brief run-down of Jean Paul Sartre's characterization of our existence. Sartre's central idea here is that, when it comes to humans, 'existence precedes essence'. So, there is no 'human nature' and we weren't designed for anything specific, as a stapler is created from an idea first, and only comes into being from this idea. Since there isn't any ideal for us to conform to in this already terrifying universe, that makes matters even more terrifying, because now there is absolutely nothing preventing other people from going on a killing spree or whatever, because it wouldn't even be wrong since it doesn't run counter to what being human means (it means nothing). So, in short, we are all totally free and it totally sucks!

I actually don't think most existentialists (Sartre and Camus) thought freedom sucked.



This is usually the place where one of my left-wing atheist comrades would come in and say that this is why religion was invented: to control people from doing all sorts of crazy things like killing their bosses and making revolution. I think Sartre personally would have gone along with that, but he also said that reason is esentially no different, and, ironically, refers to it as 'bad faith'. The argument goes as follows: since we get cast into this dystopian existence without having any say in the matter, because people, once in existence, are totally free to do whatever and there is nothing stopping them from being as violent and as crazy as they want, we have good reason to be scared shitless! Since this freedom we are all condemned to experience is so horrible and frightening we need to feel comforted and want to believe it isn't so. The solution? We came up with the idea that people are reasonable. That way we can now walk down the street without fear of getting abducted and living through the plot of the next Texas Chainsaw Massacre movie because we have faith that people are reasonable and don't do that sort of thing, even in spite of countless examples of people's actions to the contrary.

We don't have to have faith that it's true. If it weren't true, we'd all be dead. It's a simple fact that most people aren't psychopathic killers and wouldn't want to be. What you or I or anyone else wants has nothing to do with it.

And since we're on our existentialist kick let's not forget that we don't have free will anyway, so what's the fuss?



So, when Christopher Hitchens says that religion demands the sacrifice of people's reason, a possible theistic way of rephrasing that could be that religion demands the sacrifice of an illusion :o . Certainly Christians, Muslims, etc. would have a tremendously difficult (down right impossible) time rectifying their beliefs about existence with those of Sartre's, but theism and existentialism aren't mutually exclusive. God may very well exist, but it just doesn't matter. We could even be certain of God's existence, but it wouldn't change our plight of freedom in the least because we still wouldn't know anything about the nature of God, of our own nature, more importantly, or what God would want from us.

You've just now discovered the Christian existentialism that Kierkegaard and Dostoevsky created 150 years or so ago?

Don't look to Sartre, look to Dostoevsky. "If there is no God then everything is permitted." Dostoevsky made the exact point you're making about atheist morality in the Brothers Karamazov and, if you'll permit me, he did it with much more power and artistry. :lol:

Here's an important passage from the book, titled 'The Grand Inquisitor'. Tell me how you think this matches up with your ideas: http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist/dostgi.html
lol. It's funny you should mention him because this summer I've been reading Crime and Punishment and The Idiot and actually have a thread discussing Dostoevsky and his relationship to theism in the literature and film forum, which I posted around the same time I started this thread. So, I guess he's starting to have an influence on my thinking. If you weren't restricted it would be cool if you could weigh in there, but oh well.

As for what Hitchens I've read, so far it's only been The Trial of Henry Kissinger, which I enjoyed actually. But why I called him a 'scoundrel' is because I don't see how he can condemn the crimes of that pig in his prime, yet at the same time find himself supporting America's crimes in Iraq such as those committed in Abu Ghraib prison and down playing the Haditha massacre. Another reason is because 'scoundrel' seems far superior to my ears than does 'dick weed' or 'douche bag', you know?


actually don't think most existentialists (Sartre and Camus) thought freedom sucked.
Right again, but that's what confuses me about existentialism. After Sartre makes our existence and freedom sound so terrifying in Existentialism and Human Emotions I don't quite understand why it is that we should all embrace existence for the terrifying nothingness it is, and suicide isn't something he was ambivalent towards.

Le People
20th August 2007, 03:28
Because that is how freedom is. In order to be free, one has to be entirely responsible, which when one thinks about it, is fucking terrifiying. The Existentialist embrace the freedom, but also grant it is scary. They're pretty realistic. And as Sartre believes in no real limits, it would be okay to shoot yourself.

midnight marauder
20th August 2007, 10:27
Here's a brilliant proto-existentialist piece written by Marquis de Sade titled "Dialogue between a Priest and a Dying Man". I read it a few years back it still stands out as one of the most personally influential fictional works on religion that I read when I was just getting into seriously assessing my place in the world. It really reaffirmed by stance as an anti-theist athiest.

Here's the link:

http://www.freethoughtfirefighters.org/SAD...a_dying_man.htm (http://www.freethoughtfirefighters.org/SADE_dialogue_between_a_priest_and_a_dying_man.htm )

Hegemonicretribution
21st August 2007, 16:09
Originally posted by Genosse [email protected] 19, 2007 05:07 am
Right again, but that's what confuses me about existentialism. After Sartre makes our existence and freedom sound so terrifying in Existentialism and Human Emotions I don't quite understand why it is that we should all embrace existence for the terrifying nothingness it is, and suicide isn't something he was ambivalent towards.
To the original post: Publius beat me to it more or less :P

As for making our existence sound terrifying, I disagree. As Sartre actually said himself in the speech in question : It is Zola's deterministic world without choice that is more terrifying. Although existentialist fiction may appear bleak, I personally find inevitable down fall (such as in L'assomoir (sp?)) far more depressing than one being unable to escape the responsibility one muct take for their choices, such as in anything by Camus.

As for Sartre saying it simply doesn't matter whether or not there is a od, ths is only partially true. At times he takes the abandonment of the individual in a godless world as a starting point for the absurd. Personally I don't like Sartre that much for the reason stated by Rosa: he can be vague as fuck.

Essentially though Sartre is only offering the chance to choose living responsibly in reality over blaming one's circumstance for downfall. The world suggested is just the world, completely free, without right or wrong as it naturally exists. His point is that you can choose to surround yourself with religious dogma, and/or state-formed morality, but by doing so you effectively choose to live in false hope of something "better", or in rejection of your own autonomy. You still, essentially, should be to blame even for these decisions. Existentialism and autonomy cross over quite a lot, I personally like a lot of the ideas involved.

Existentialism says: This is the world, deal with it!!! (or not, you know, it probably doesnt matter anyway ;))

As for issues regarding suicide, I think Camus is the man to look towards there.