why believe?

[spartan]

why believe in god/s? where is the proof that these god/s exist? why cant people who believe understand that religions and god/s were created by humans to satisfy our own desires. but now we as a majority have moved on. we dont need to be held back by imagionary supreme beings. any leftist who proposes an alliance of sorts with religious extremists is a reactionary.

[Raúl Duke]

I've never seen a leftist fight alongside reactionary extremists....

However, I do understand your point: leftists & left groups who support the extremist resistence movement in Iraq and Afghanistan.

This is just the old "the enemy of my enemy is my friend thing" and some groups in the left actually support it.

When it comes to me, personally, I don't support it (religious fundamentalism) but I'm absolutely oppossed to imperialism and hope they lose so that the defeat "sends shockwaves" to the people in the imperialist country which might lead to an opening for more radical ideas to the public there.

When it comes to religion I'm also opposed to it because fundamentally it is mostly reactionary. It might seem progressive at one moment, but they could easily show "their true colors" when the time is right for them.

[STI]

but now we as a majority have moved on.

If you're referring to "we" as "the revolutionary left", then you're probably right... but make no mistake, even here in the advanced capitalist world Godsuckers make up a big chunk of the population and have a lot of sway over the political process.

Underestimate them at your peril! :angry:

[RedCeltic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2007 02:46 pm
why believe in god/s? where is the proof that these god/s exist? why cant people who believe understand that religions and god/s were created by humans to satisfy our own desires. but now we as a majority have moved on. we dont need to be held back by imagionary supreme beings. any leftist who proposes an alliance of sorts with religious extremists is a reactionary.
Because it makes it easier when you want to impose your will, or construct new laws, or declare yourself King or enslave an entire race of people... just to declare that "God Said so.." Otherwise, there is no other rational explanation for such things. <_<

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Originally posted by spartan+August 17, 2007 09:46 pm--> (spartan @ August 17, 2007 09:46 pm) why believe in god/s? [/b]
To resolve the is-ought problem. The natural world can provide us with a wealth of information about what is, but there is nothing to indicate what should be. A belief in something supernatural (such as a God) can provide a vision of what should be, and it can therefore grant a direction and a purpose to a human life.

Of course, as many atheists point out, humans are quite capable of inventing their own purposes in life - but in the absence of religious belief, any purpose you choose for your life is arbitrary. I see no good secular reason why one should dedicate one&#39;s life to revolutionary struggle as opposed to, say, baking cookies.


Originally posted by [email protected]
where is the proof that these god/s exist?
In the case of monotheistic gods (such as the Christian God), the existence of God is by definition unprovable. See this topic (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=68173).


spartan
any leftist who proposes an alliance of sorts with religious extremists is a reactionary.
I absolutely agree, but you would do well to emphasize the word "extremists". Generally speaking, the term "religious extremists" or "fundamentalists" is used to refer to people who cling to feudalist interpretations of religion, and are therefore reactionary. Obviously we have nothing in common with these people and they are our enemies.

But you would also do well to remember that the majority of the working class holds religious beliefs. Unless you expect to be able to persuade them to change those beliefs - which would not only be difficult but would also suck up a lot of time and energy that would be better spent in revolutionary struggles - you will have to build some form of solidarity with religious workers.

[RHIZOMES]

Originally posted by Edric O+August 18, 2007 07:26 am--> (Edric O @ August 18, 2007 07:26 am)
Originally posted by spartan+August 17, 2007 09:46 pm--> (spartan &#064; August 17, 2007 09:46 pm) why believe in god/s? [/b]
To resolve the is-ought problem. The natural world can provide us with a wealth of information about what is, but there is nothing to indicate what should be. A belief in something supernatural (such as a God) can provide a vision of what should be, and it can therefore grant a direction and a purpose to a human life.

Of course, as many atheists point out, humans are quite capable of inventing their own purposes in life - but in the absence of religious belief, any purpose you choose for your life is arbitrary. I see no good secular reason why one should dedicate one&#39;s life to revolutionary struggle as opposed to, say, baking cookies.


[email protected]
where is the proof that these god/s exist?
In the case of monotheistic gods (such as the Christian God), the existence of God is by definition unprovable. See this topic (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=68173).


spartan
any leftist who proposes an alliance of sorts with religious extremists is a reactionary.
I absolutely agree, but you would do well to emphasize the word "extremists". Generally speaking, the term "religious extremists" or "fundamentalists" is used to refer to people who cling to feudalist interpretations of religion, and are therefore reactionary. Obviously we have nothing in common with these people and they are our enemies.

But you would also do well to remember that the majority of the working class holds religious beliefs. Unless you expect to be able to persuade them to change those beliefs - which would not only be difficult but would also suck up a lot of time and energy that would be better spent in revolutionary struggles - you will have to build some form of solidarity with religious workers. [/b]
Couldn&#39;t have said it better myself.

[RevMARKSman]

To resolve the is-ought problem. The natural world can provide us with a wealth of information about what is, but there is nothing to indicate what should be. A belief in something supernatural (such as a God) can provide a vision of what should be, and it can therefore grant a direction and a purpose to a human life.

...because "ought" and "should" are undefinable beyond "what I want." So you&#39;re taking an undefined term, making up a supernatural being to justify it, and pretending either of them are relevant to real life.


Of course, as many atheists point out, humans are quite capable of inventing their own purposes in life - but in the absence of religious belief, any purpose you choose for your life is arbitrary.

No shit.

...but it&#39;s fun, isn&#39;t it? There is no objective purpose in life. So you can do whatever you want with it, be as happy as you want, do the things you really want to do without worrying about some "purpose" you need to fulfill.


I see no good secular reason why one should dedicate one&#39;s life to revolutionary struggle as opposed to, say, baking cookies.

a) Why can&#39;t you do both?
b) It&#39;s in your material interests to live in a communist society. It&#39;s therefore in your material interests to create a communist society. So you try to create one.



In the case of monotheistic gods (such as the Christian God), the existence of God is by definition unprovable. See this topic.

So, why do you believe in something that by definition does not exist?

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Originally posted by RevMARKSman+August 18, 2007 01:13 pm--> (RevMARKSman &#064; August 18, 2007 01:13 pm) ...because "ought" and "should" are undefinable beyond "what I want." So you&#39;re taking an undefined term, making up a supernatural being to justify it, and pretending either of them are relevant to real life. [/b]
Really? Then tell me, what do you want, and why do you want it?


Originally posted by RevMARKSman+--> (RevMARKSman)...but it&#39;s fun, isn&#39;t it? There is no objective purpose in life. So you can do whatever you want with it, be as happy as you want, do the things you really want to do without worrying about some "purpose" you need to fulfill.[/b]
But it&#39;s irrational. If I want to do something, I must have a good reason for it beyond simply "I feel like doing this." And why do you want to do things, anyway? What is the motivation for your actions? If your actions are to be motivated by personal enjoyment, then answer me this: Why should you enjoy yourself? Surely, if there is no objective purpose of life and if ethics is meaningless, then your happiness has no value whatsoever. Why should you care about your own happiness?

It&#39;s ironic, isn&#39;t it? My desire to be guided by reason alone (and not arbitrary desire, emotion or instinct) motivated me to seek an objective, universal purpose of life, which in turn drove me to embrace religion.

All rational arguments must begin from some premises - ultimately all reason must proceed from a set of axioms. If we are to use reason alone to guide our actions, we need axioms to start from. Only religion can provide those axioms.


[email protected]

I see no good secular reason why one should dedicate one&#39;s life to revolutionary struggle as opposed to, say, baking cookies.

a) Why can&#39;t you do both?
b) It&#39;s in your material interests to live in a communist society. It&#39;s therefore in your material interests to create a communist society. So you try to create one.
a) By "baking cookies," I meant "baking cookies in the time that would otherwise be spent engaging in revolutionary struggle." In any case, you understand the question.
b) Yes, communism is in your material interests, but why should you follow your material interests? Or, in other words, why should you seek happiness, if happiness has no objective value?


RevMARKSman
So, why do you believe in something that by definition does not exist?
See above for my reasons. As for the definition, the reason why God is unprovable is because there is no conceivable way that one could prove oneself to be omnipotent, omniscient or the creator of the universe. If God existed and appeared in your living room, he could not prove that he was in fact, God - as opposed to merely being some technologically advanced alien.

In other words, God is unprovable not in the sense that he is "invisible, intangible and imperceptible," but in the sense that he has some infinite attributes (such as, say, omniscience) which would require an infinite amount of proof. For example, to prove that you know everything, you have to sit down and tell me everything. Otherwise I could suspect that you merely know a lot.

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2007 07:46 pm
why believe in god/s? where is the proof that these god/s exist? why cant people who believe understand that religions and god/s were created by humans to satisfy our own desires. but now we as a majority have moved on. we dont need to be held back by imagionary supreme beings. any leftist who proposes an alliance of sorts with religious extremists is a reactionary.
i think people find comfort in the thought they will be re united with their loved ones after death, which is fair enough. I find it pretty difficult to construe anything reactionary from that.

[RevMARKSman]

Really? Then tell me, what do you want, and why do you want it?

What I want is irrelevant. I want it because it makes me happy.


But it&#39;s irrational.

Ah, no.

Axiom: Humans want what makes them happy.
Provable Premise: I am a human.
Therefore, I want what makes me happy.
Provable Premise: X makes me happy.
Therefore, I want X.


And why do you want to do things, anyway? What is the motivation for your actions? If your actions are to be motivated by personal enjoyment, then answer me this: Why should you enjoy yourself?

There is no "should." That&#39;s an undefined word so any statement containing the word is automatically undefined.

I want to be happy because all humans want to be happy.


It&#39;s ironic, isn&#39;t it? My desire to be guided by reason alone (and not arbitrary desire, emotion or instinct) motivated me to seek an objective, universal purpose of life, which in turn drove me to embrace religion.

No. Your desire to reconcile undefined words and observable fact, along with either upbringing or several environmental factors, drives you to embrace religion.


Yes, communism is in your material interests, but why should you follow your material interests? Or, in other words, why should you seek happiness, if happiness has no objective value?

Watch your language. Happiness has no objective value, but I seek subjective happiness as a base instinct that no human can overcome.


In other words, God is unprovable not in the sense that he is "invisible, intangible and imperceptible," but in the sense that he has some infinite attributes (such as, say, omniscience) which would require an infinite amount of proof. For example, to prove that you know everything, you have to sit down and tell me everything. Otherwise I could suspect that you merely know a lot.

Exactly. Infinite proof is impossible. Infinite knowledge is impossible. Counting to infinity is impossible. Plus, I can prove that if God is omniscient, he is not all-powerful and also has no free will.

[jasmine]

Axiom: Humans want what makes them happy.
Provable Premise: I am a human.
Therefore, I want what makes me happy.
Provable Premise: X makes me happy.
Therefore, I want X.

The axiom is highly dubious. Have you never met a congenitally miserable bastard who does his/her utmost to keep life as miserable as possible?

Humans want the familiar, what makes them feel safe, may be a better starting point (in general). Of course there are also those who crave excitement via fear. Or those who get off on the suffering of others.

Did Doctor Mengeles feel "happy" as he sliced into his victims. Or how did the Boston Strangler feel as his hands closed around the throat of a young woman? Happy?

Almost nobody is motivated by the pursuit of happiness.

[Ol' Dirty]

A belief in something supernatural (such as a God) can provide a vision of what should be, and it can therefore grant a direction and a purpose to a human life.


Of course, as many atheists point out, humans are quite capable of inventing their own purposes in life - but in the absence of religious belief, any purpose you choose for your life is arbitrary.