Communism in the Book of St. James? - "Liberation" not descr

[Comrade Gorley]

Usually, defenders of "liberation theology" cite Luke 6, Luke 18:18-25, and Acts 2:44-47 as evidence of communism in the Bible. However, listen to this passage:

1 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.
2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.
3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.
4 Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.
5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.
6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.
7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
-James 5

Very interesting- and written by Jesus' brother (or half brother, if one believes the Gospels) James, head of the church in Jerusalem, which was at that time being oppresed by the Romans.

The guy who runs http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com lists James as one of his favorite books, saying:


James is one of my favorite books in the bible. I don't know, maybe it's just the ex-Catholic in me, but James doesn't contain much that is objectionable, and includes some really good ideas.

BTW, what does everyone think of the claim that they recently found the ossurary (sp?) containing James' body?


And sorry for the rather lengthy absence, but I'm back :)

[redstar2000]

7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

That text looks a little garbled--"stablish"?--but the operative word is clearly patience.

The oppressed get a lot of sympathy and the oppressors are condemned in ringing tones...and that's it.

To rebel against the oppressors instead of "waiting for the Lord" is...unChristian.

How nice...for the oppressors.

:cool:

(Edited by redstar2000 at 7:34 pm on June 8, 2003)

[Umoja]

Most Marxist believe Communism is inevitable.....

[redstar2000]

Most Marxist believe Communism is inevitable.....

Do you mean "believe" as in "act of faith" or "believe" as in "reasonable conclusion from historical evidence"?

And what does that have to do with this thread?

:cool:

[Sensitive]

Where in the Bible did Jesus advise the oppressed to unite, rise up and overthrow their oppressors and then create a classless society? THAT is what a communist would advise, not "love your neighbor" or some other silly moralistic stuff.

If I recall correctly, Jesus even opposed Judas, and Judas wanted to form a liberation movement (to end Roman imperial occupation of Israel).

Clearly, Jesus' interests were reforming Judaism and he didn't want real political issues to get in the way of that (like Judas' politics). Also, everyone that has read the Bible knows that the "utopia" would only come into existence after Jesus and his dad come and destroy this Earth. That is talking about an afterlife, not about creating a classless society on This Earth (and that is what we communists want to do!)

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Funny, I thought comradeship and mutual love between all human beings was the whole point of having a classless society in the first place...

"Love thy neighbor" is exactly what defines the perfect Communist society.

[Umoja]

Sorry, I was using it as a subtle joke Redstar. Marx believed that Communism was eventually going to happen, based on his economic "rationale" (far better word), conversly (inversely? Reversely? :biggrin:) Christians believe that the "Kingdom of Heaven" is inevitable..... Waiting for a "good time for the revolution" seems to be common human way of thinking.

[Sensitive]

Quote: from Edric O on 2:57 pm on June 9, 2003
Funny, I thought comradeship and mutual love between all human beings was the whole point of having a classless society in the first place...

"Love thy neighbor" is exactly what defines the perfect Communist society.
Jesus was telling his followers to love their neighbors in the existing system. That would be like you telling me to love the bourgeoisie, and that would be outrageous (and counter-revolutionary). They are our class enemy, and it is our mission is to remove them from power. This is no time to love the bourgeoisie!

Furthermore, even if Jesus had wanted to create a different society, it would have been focused around worshipping Yahweh! As we found out in the Roman Empire when the Christians took power, they had no patience for dissenters (pagans) (and so much for all the "loving your neighbor" stuff, I guess you can only love them if they are Good Christians!) So basically, if you want to turn Jesus into a politician then he was advocating a reformed Judaism ("Christian" ) theocracy.

(Edited by Sensitive at 3:30 pm on June 9, 2003)

[Sandanista]

No ALL true marxists know communism is inevitable,

[Comrade Gorley]

That text looks a little garbled--"stablish"?

Well, you know, Olde Engelish and all that.



--but the operative word is clearly patience.

The oppressed get a lot of sympathy and the oppressors are condemned in ringing tones...and that's it.

Well, than, I suppose we should just toss "The Communist Manifesto" in the trash, since Marx certainly didn't do much to instititute a communist society, just introduced it as a political theory, threatened the government, and telling the proletarians to prepare for a revolution, led by (surprisingly) a revolutionary, such as, say, Che Guevara. Either way, someone adviced the oppressed to wait for freedom as delivered by someone else.

To rebel against the oppressors instead of "waiting for the Lord" is...unChristian.

How nice...for the oppressors.


Tell me, what happens when the oppressed lash back against their captors and destroy them- without leadership? Look at the French Revolution. Although the burgeoise will be eliminated all it will result in is a useless anarchy. In the same way, if the oppressed struck back at their oppressors, they wouldn't know what to do afterwards. Both James and Marx advised we wait for a leader, a Moses-figure, if you will. Of course, for the Bible it says to wait for God, whereas the secular Marx said to wait for a general spirit, but, to me, it's essentially looking at the same thing from fundamentally different angles, odd as it sounds.

[Blackberry]

Quote: from Comrade Gorley on 5:23 am on June 10, 2003

Marx advised we wait for a leader, a Moses-figure, if you will.

No. Marx said that the working class had to liberate themselves. He never said that the working class should wait for a leader.

[redstar2000]

...and telling the proletarians to prepare for a revolution, led by (surprisingly) a revolutionary, such as, say, Che Guevara. Either way, someone adviced the oppressed to wait for freedom as delivered by someone else.

What a bizarre interpretation of The Communist Manifesto.

Marx and Engels actually called upon the working class to unite and do it now! No "leader" is even mentioned at all.

The idea of "waiting for the leader" is the exact opposite of a communist approach...it is, in fact, a fascist approach, as can be seen from early pre-Nazi propaganda in Germany, 1918-1923. Even Hitler at first preached that he was only "preparing the way" for the "true leader" that would "save Germany".

In fact, I would go so far as to say that any theory that relies on a "great leader" to "redeem us"--in supernatural or earthly forms--shares a core value with fascism.

Perhaps this would partially explain why religion can get so cozy with right-wing politicians...they have certain ideas in common.

Tell me, what happens when the oppressed lash back against their captors and destroy them- without leadership? Look at the French Revolution. Although the burgeoise will be eliminated all it will result in is a useless anarchy. In the same way, if the oppressed struck back at their oppressors, they wouldn't know what to do afterwards.

Well they might know what to do afterwards, if we've spent a few decades explaining it to them.

But what you are really saying here is that "people need to be told what to do" or else everything will turn to shit, e.g., "useless anarchy".

That is a metaphysical argument...it has no scientific or historical justification whatsoever!

In all previous revolutionary eras (such as that of the French Revolution that you cite), what has happened is that one class has seized power from another...and this has always involved powerful leaders from the new class overthrowing the leaders of the old class.

But the point of proletarian revolution is the overthrow of class society altogether...which means the end of the "era of great leaders" and the beginning of the era of real power in the hands of ordinary working people.

No doubt there would still be what the Spanish anarcho-syndicalists called "influential militants" -- a "new Che" would be widely admired and his ideas would always receive a respectful hearing. Nevertheless it would be common understanding that no one is ever to be mindlessly obeyed under any circumstances.

"Obedience to authority" would be regarded as a sign of some form of mental retardation, as a public declaration that one is "less than fully human".

...whereas the secular Marx said to wait for a general spirit...

Marx never told anyone to wait for anything, not even a bus.

What can be inferred from the Manifesto is that communists cannot make a revolution "all by themselves"...revolutions are made by classes, not by "vanguards". What communists do is provide the class with the tools it needs both to overthrow the old order and make sure it stays overthrown.

In that sense, communists are "patient". But we do whatever we can to hasten the revolution, to encourage our class to rise up.

And that is the difference between us and all those who profess belief in "supernatural liberation".

:cool:

[Umoja]

Quote: from Sandanista on 2:10 am on June 10, 2003
No ALL true marxists know communism is inevitable,


Christians know Jesus' return is inevitable.

[Sandanista]

Thats nice but no religions have scientific proof that they are right, whereas many anthropologists and psycologists agree with marxist theorys

[Umoja]

Many scientist and anthropologist agree with Christianity.... oh wait, they are probubly biased, unlike the people who believe in Marxism eventually working.

[redstar2000]

Many scientist and anthropologist agree with Christianity....

About what, Umoja?

Sandanista's point is that there are some anthropologists and perhaps some other scientists that agree that Marxism presents an accurate or at least partially accurate representation of the real world.

What scientists of any kind would argue that Christianity presents any kind of accurate representation of the real world?

And on the basis of what evidence?

:cool:

[Umoja]

I've listened to conservative Christian radio, and they've managed to get biased scientist talking about pro-creationism views. Besides, I'm only being an ass when I'm responding to you Sadanista.

The Redstar Raptor has tried to scoop me up though. :biggrin: