Dostoevsky and Religion

[Genosse Kotze]

Ok, this summer I read Crime and Punishment for the first time and absolutely loved it! I love protagonists like Raskolnikov and the Underground Man as they are bitter and "flawed" but 100% cool and righteous (not necessarily in the religious sense, mind you). I can't list all the reasons why I loved C&P cuz there is just to much to like, but I liked how you had to wait till the very last page for, what I considered, a happy ending. However, I'm confused as to Dostoevsky's thoughts on religion.

I haven't read The Brothers Karamazov yet, but I did read the Grand Inquisitor story from it. It is the story of where Jesus comes back and starts preforming miracles and all that back in the days when the Spanish Inquisition were going at it, and the Bishop has Him arrested, as Jesus being there totally ruins what the Church has built, as Jesus gave people too much freedom. Only an atheist is capable of such delightful sinicism! right? However, in C&P, we see the main character Raskolnikov move away from an atheist position to a more theistic one throughout the book. And right now I'm reading The Idiot (after just having finished C&P I simply had to read more Dostoevsky before the semester started!) and I'm sensing that it is kind of ambivalent towards religion. The main character, Prince Myskin just said this in the last chapter I read:


the baby was about six weeks old. And the baby had smiled at her, as far as she'd noticed, for the first time since it was born. I saw her suddenly cross herself very, very piously. 'What is it, young woman?' I say...'It's just that a mother rejoices,' she says, 'when she notices her baby's first smile, the same as God rejoices each time he looks down from heaven and sees a sinner standing before him and praying with all his heart.'

He continues to say that this is the essence of religion and that it is precisely this essence which atheists are not taking into account in their arguments against belief in God. Now this is a pretty sentimental and sympathetic view on religious belief, but bear in mind that it is coming out of the mouth of 'the idiot' which the book is named after (although so far it would apear that the prince isn't as stupid as people make him out to be). And then again, in C&P I don't think the main character ever really does genuinely come around to religion or to regret his crime even. Sure he goes to prison in the end but only because he feels he has to. At one point it is said that he had 2 choices: he could either turn himself in, or kill himself. And while in prison he really regrets not having killed himself.

I'm now starting to think he believed in God but only thought the Church was the fraud, seeing as he depicted the Church as just a repressive, controlling institution in The Grand Inquisitor, but that Jesus was counter to that? I'm still quite confused by all this and this post hasn't been very cogent, I know, but I would like to hear your thoughts. However, I must ask that you don't use an example from the Idiot yet, because I haven't finished it yet and don't want to know what happens ;)

[RedCommieBear]

From the wiki:


Originally posted by Wikipedia
Perhaps most significantly, he had what his biographer Joseph Frank describes as a conversion experience in prison, which greatly strengthened his Christian, and specifically Orthodox, faith (the experience is depicted by Dostoevsky in The Peasant Marey (1876)). While conversion plays a strong role in many of his works, not all his characters arrive at Christianity in a moment of crisis (notably, Alyosha in The Brothers Karamazov is converted through the example of the good works and moral teachings of Elder Zosima.) Although we cannot assume with authority that Dostoevsky's prison ordeal was the sole catalyst for his dramatic shift in views and style, this explanation parallels his own semi-autobiographical description of prison life in The House of the Dead.

[Le People]

Just to comment on your assesment of Raskonikolov. I feel like he was deathly guilty and regretted everything he did, but did not want to face the music. That should be the obvious cause of his delirium and downward spriral. The Brothers Karmazov is a must as is the Possessed. Personally, Crime and Punishment is my favorite book ever.

[CornetJoyce]

Originally posted by Genosse [email protected] 17, 2007 08:29 am
Ok, this summer I read Crime and Punishment for the first time and absolutely loved it! I love protagonists like Raskolnikov and the Underground Man as they are bitter and "flawed" but 100% cool and righteous (not necessarily in the religious sense, mind you). I can't list all the reasons why I loved C&P cuz there is just to much to like, but I liked how you had to wait till the very last page for, what I considered, a happy ending. However, I'm confused as to Dostoevsky's thoughts on religion.

I haven't read The Brothers Karamazov yet, but I did read the Grand Inquisitor story from it. It is the story of where Jesus comes back and starts preforming miracles and all that back in the days when the Spanish Inquisition were going at it, and the Bishop has Him arrested, as Jesus being there totally ruins what the Church has built, as Jesus gave people too much freedom. Only an atheist is capable of such delightful sinicism! right? However, in C&P, we see the main character Raskolnikov move away from an atheist position to a more theistic one throughout the book. And right now I'm reading The Idiot (after just having finished C&P I simply had to read more Dostoevsky before the semester started!) and I'm sensing that it is kind of ambivalent towards religion. The main character, Prince Myskin just said this in the last chapter I read:


the baby was about six weeks old. And the baby had smiled at her, as far as she'd noticed, for the first time since it was born. I saw her suddenly cross herself very, very piously. 'What is it, young woman?' I say...'It's just that a mother rejoices,' she says, 'when she notices her baby's first smile, the same as God rejoices each time he looks down from heaven and sees a sinner standing before him and praying with all his heart.'

He continues to say that this is the essence of religion and that it is precisely this essence which atheists are not taking into account in their arguments against belief in God. Now this is a pretty sentimental and sympathetic view on religious belief, but bear in mind that it is coming out of the mouth of 'the idiot' which the book is named after (although so far it would apear that the prince isn't as stupid as people make him out to be). And then again, in C&P I don't think the main character ever really does genuinely come around to religion or to regret his crime even. Sure he goes to prison in the end but only because he feels he has to. At one point it is said that he had 2 choices: he could either turn himself in, or kill himself. And while in prison he really regrets not having killed himself.

I'm now starting to think he believed in God but only thought the Church was the fraud, seeing as he depicted the Church as just a repressive, controlling institution in The Grand Inquisitor, but that Jesus was counter to that? I'm still quite confused by all this and this post hasn't been very cogent, I know, but I would like to hear your thoughts. However, I must ask that you don't use an example from the Idiot yet, because I haven't finished it yet and don't want to know what happens ;)
According to a recent article on Dostoyevski, the theme that "if Jesus returned the Church would kill him" came from George Sand, whom he admired, and who was a Christian Socialist.

[Genosse Kotze]

Originally posted by Le [email protected] 18, 2007 03:03 am
Just to comment on your assesment of Raskonikolov. I feel like he was deathly guilty and regretted everything he did, but did not want to face the music. That should be the obvious cause of his delirium and downward spriral. The Brothers Karmazov is a must as is the Possessed. Personally, Crime and Punishment is my favorite book ever.
Yes, he was reluctant to face the music but when he finally did go to turn himself in, if he did feel regret about anything, I think it was only because it finalized the fact that he wasn't one of those Napoleon types after all. Also, when he confesses to the crime, he lies about his true motives and instead says that he was looking to rob the old woman.

All of his delerium, I suspect, had a lot to do with just being terrifed about being caught and not from feelings of guilt. In the epilouge he even says when he is acting all dispondent in prision:


But although he severly examined himself, he failed to find any specially dreadful cause in his past life, except a silly error, which might have happened to any man.

Then again, you may be right because that quote continues to say that he would have to bear the consequences of that error if he were to ever wish for a moments calmness. Actually, I've changed my mind just now and do wholly agree with you that he came to regret his crime. Throughout the whole book he treated Sonia with such disdain for it was because of her really wanting him to turn himself in to save his soul, which compelled him to finally go confess--so he resented her for making him do that. But right at the end, when he finally does come to love her (which I found really touching) he comes to see that she was right and did come to truely regret it. Still, I don't think he ever really does get into religion though. Even after he falls in love with her, it says that he had Sonia's Bible in prision with him, but that he wasn't reading it :)

I'm not finding the Idiot half as compelling as C&P. Whenever I get the chance I do want to read The Land of the Dead, which is supposed to be about life in a Siberian penal colony. But, yeah, Crime and Punishment is my favorite book of all time too!

[Led Zeppelin]

I think you have to seperate their views on religion and other matters from what they write in their novels, because those do not necessarily reflect their views. He could be writing from the perspective of another character, which was the case a lot with writers from that era, and actually I think most writers.

Another example of this is Tolstoy. In Anna Karenina he wrote on religion not only from an atheist perspective, attacking it, but also from a christian perspective, defending it....in real life he himself was religious, or at least he becamse so later on.

Anyway, from what I know about Dostoyevsky (one of my favorite authors btw) is that he was religious, and believed that without a god "everything was permitted". So he believed in god because he didn't believe human society could function without a fear of the afterlife.

I know it sucks, but a lot of intellectuals believed that at that time, so I'm not really bothered about it.

[Le People]

Yeah, I know that Dostoyevsky writes from the atheist perspective alot. Kilrov has to be his best attempt at it. Also, to fully understand Dostoyevsky, you have to start at his religoius views, because religion completely envolpes his works. The Bros. Karmazov is a perfect example, and though not an atheist or hardcore relgious person myself, it is easy to like his pious characters, such as Father Zomisa and Alyosha.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

No more DD, please, or it will just go in the trash.

[Leo]

Dick Dastardly, I trashed that post - please don't post one liners with the sole purpose of insulting other posters.

[Umoja]

I think an understanding of Eastern Christianity is needed to truly understand Dostoevsky. As far as I'm concerned, he was a Christian nihilist, even though this isn't true. I'm very interested in reading the Brothers Karamozov next, because if it's anywhere near as good as Crime and Punishment I will be a very happy camper.