Che, becoming comercialized?

[Saint Street Revolution]

At the mall yesterday I saw a stand selling stuff with Che's face on them, and Fidel Castro, and it wasn't an independent stand, it was one of those lame mall stands with the name "revolutionary shirts" printed across the top in some Arial, plain font, clearly Capitalist and sponsered by the mall.

Why is Che becoming this face that makes whoever wears a shirt, or drinks from a mug with his face on it, or whatever else merchandise Che is on, becoming this commercialized style that's making teenagers look "rebellious"?

That is what Che-Mart.com points out, that Che is just becoming another symbol of false "rebellion" that the common teen is so wrapped up in. What can we do about it?

(edit) also, this (http://thechestore.com) is what I'm talking about. It's an online store with Che's face all over it, "For all your revolutionary needs..." is the slogan. Is this like an independent thing or is what I just said, a commercialized "rebellious" market?

[redcannon]

oy vey, i wish i had an answer to this problem. However, none comes to mind. "Rebellious" symbols and phrases and the like have become more exploited by capitalism then the proletariat. Che is on every angsty and preppy teenagers t-shirt, and converse makes those goddamn high tops with anarchy As all over it.

For now I suppose we just have to deal with it, along with other things

EDIT: also i looked at the website you linked. I think its independent because they have a bunch of his speeches and a biography, but who knows for sure?

[Saint Street Revolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 12:50 am
oy vey, i wish i had an answer to this problem. However, none comes to mind. "Rebellious" symbols and phrases and the like have become more exploited by capitalism then the proletariat. Che is on every angsty and preppy teenagers t-shirt, and converse makes those goddamn high tops with anarchy As all over it.

For now I suppose we just have to deal with it, along with other things

EDIT: also i looked at the website you linked. I think its independent because they have a bunch of his speeches and a biography, but who knows for sure?
No they're not, I just read in deeper, it's a collaboration of 5 corporations. thats pretty much as bad as it gets

[Cybercide]

Originally posted by Grandma [email protected] 13, 2007 11:25 pm
At the mall yesterday I saw a stand selling stuff with Che's face on them, and Fidel Castro, and it wasn't an independent stand, it was one of those lame mall stands with the name "revolutionary shirts" printed across the top in some Arial, plain font, clearly Capitalist and sponsered by the mall.

Why is Che becoming this face that makes whoever wears a shirt, or drinks from a mug with his face on it, or whatever else merchandise Che is on, becoming this commercialized style that's making teenagers look "rebellious"?

That is what Che-Mart.com points out, that Che is just becoming another symbol of false "rebellion" that the common teen is so wrapped up in. What can we do about it?

(edit) also, this (http://thechestore.com) is what I'm talking about. It's an online store with Che's face all over it, "For all your revolutionary needs..." is the slogan. Is this like an independent thing or is what I just said, a commercialized "rebellious" market?
... this is just sad :o

[The-Spark]

Its very true sadly, if Che was alive today he'd be horrored. First the C.I.A kills him, then the bourgeosie use his face to gain a quick buck. I even saw a shirt, at this store in the mall with his face on it, and it has the slogan "i dont know who this is" on it. How disrespectful, personally, i believe in spraypainting shirts like that. Like 12 year olds put up anarchy signs and buy shirts with anarchy signs on it to be "rebelious" even though so many of them think that anarchy means "total chaos". Leftist symbols have been turned into a dollar sign, it saddens me.

[RGacky3]

Smartest thing Capitalist ever did, much better to make a friend out of a popular dead enemy than try and defame him. If it makes money, they'll sell it.

[The-Spark]

If Che was alive and he saw this, im sure he would raise hell, as we should about this.

[RedHal]

the commercialization of che's image will strip it of all political meaning. Eventually Che will be remembered as a pretty face with a rebellious streak rather than his political beliefs, another james dean.

[Organic Revolution]

Che's image has always been commercialized, be it by the socialists or the communists as a way to sell us revolution, for there own personal gains. I mean, if you really look into Che, you realize he wasn't that great of a person, you know the whole execution of gays and anarchist thing?

[black magick hustla]

i think it is somewhat disturbing how a lot of leftists get horrified when che is comercialized.

everything is comercialized, no need to feel particularly bad about che, you sound like the religious maniacs who are afraid of capital because it "corrupts us" or any other moralistic bullshit.

[Chocobo]

i think it is somewhat disturbing how a lot of leftists get horrified when che is comercialized.

everything is comercialized, no need to feel particularly bad about che, you sound like the religious maniacs who are afraid of capital because it "corrupts us" or any other moralistic bullshit.

Sure. Capital does it for profitinging, along with his complete alienation and all that he stood for. Don't you all get that that's fine? Nobody should know who Che was anyway. Just wear his face and clown around about this Cuban feller.

Sarcasm intended.


Che's image has always been commercialized, be it by the socialists or the communists as a way to sell us revolution, for there own personal gains. I mean, if you really look into Che, you realize he wasn't that great of a person, you know the whole execution of gays and anarchist thing?

Perhaps, but your taking "commercialization" into another meaning outside of intended marketing. Che is inspirational to many of us (Though i can see not to you) and he is not being commercialized by reading his speeches and books or what exactly he did. He is being acknowledged as a being whom led and manifested an entire path for revolutionaries to follow and lead on their own. His face being printed on a Tee for kids and scene-fiends to prance around in and look fashionable is bloody aggravating, especially when you hear these people still standing for the flag, joining the army, and, simply, caring more about aquiring vast wealth then even working united with their fellow peoples.
Quite really, it's disgusting.

[Hiero]

I agree with Organic Revolution and Marmont. The best thing is to educate people about Che, the Marxist-Leninist Che, his positives as well as his negatives. Also we don't know how Che would have felt. He wasn't just some radical looking for an alternative life, so he may not have been disgusted by the commericalisation, probally just very confused and disturbed.

However I don't think the thing about killing Anarchisst is true, really how many anarchist were there in Cuba? The Cuban revolution involved alot of political camps, Che and Raul were in the communist camp. Alot of people opposed Batista and joined the revolution against him even though they were reactionary. These anarchist could have been oppurtunists spouting any garbage so they could look popular and then remove the communist from power, if that was allowed to happen well then welcome to the 51st state of America.

[partizan604]

Che is inspirational to many of us (Though i can see not to you) and he is not being commercialized by reading his speeches and books or what exactly he did. He is being acknowledged as a being whom led and manifested an entire path for revolutionaries to follow and lead on their own.

that's true, i agree. no matter if they don't know who he was - because we simply know who they are. capitalists with their brain cut off. they sell Che's face everywhere, but they can't use it as a social propoganda - and until that i don't care about "Che market" at all.

[Sanjee]

Che is the person whose image is the second most printed in the whole world. It's sad to hear that, and realise that it's only being used for the lucrative goals of these capitalists. :(

[Hiero]

Who is the first most printed?

[Karl Marx's Camel]

I don't like quoting, much less quoting Lenin, but I will:


What is now happening to Marx's theory has, in the course of history, happened repeatedly to the theories of revolutionary thinkers and leaders of oppressed classes fighting for emancipation. During the lifetime of great revolutionaries, the oppressing classes constantly hounded them, received their theories with the most savage malice, the most furious hatred and the most unscrupulous campaigns of lies and slander. After their death, attempts are made to convert them into harmless icons, to canonize them, so to say, and to hallow their names to a certain extent for the “consolation” of the oppressed classes and with the object of duping the latter, while at the same time robbing the revolutionary theory of its substance, blunting its revolutionary edge and vulgarizing it. Today, the bourgeoisie and the opportunists within the labor movement concur in this doctoring of Marxism. They omit, obscure, or distort the revolutionary side of this theory, its revolutionary soul. They push to the foreground and extol what is or seems acceptable to the bourgeoisie. All the social-chauvinists are now “Marxists” (don't laugh!). And more and more frequently German bourgeois scholars, only yesterday specialists in the annihilation of Marxism, are speaking of the “national-German” Marx, who, they claim, educated the labor unions which are so splendidly organized for the purpose of waging a predatory war! - The State and Revolution (a quite good book actually, I think)

[hajduk]

PEOPLE the capitalist make for us faver becouse they didnt realise how many people respect Che and his revolution...with comercialisation they just give us more energy to struggle against them so it is not bad if you put on yourself t-shirt with Che face on it....but real danger of comercialisation is becouse if you were those kind stuff, for capitalist and agents it is easy to locate us...that is the reason why they comercialised Che

[Sanjee]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 11:48 am
Who is the first most printed?
Colonel Sanders, you know, that freaky dude of KFC...

[Saint Street Revolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 12:22 pm
PEOPLE the capitalist make for us faver becouse they didnt realise how many people respect Che and his revolution...with comercialisation they just give us more energy to struggle against them so it is not bad if you put on yourself t-shirt with Che face on it....but real danger of comercialisation is becouse if you were those kind stuff, for capitalist and agents it is easy to locate us...that is the reason why they comercialised Che
I disagree, here's why,

In teenage culture today, especially in the US, looking "rebellious" is cool or in vogue or whatever. Therefore, the salesmen are going to sell "rebellious" things because it will sell well. It's all to make a quick buck.

[hajduk]

Originally posted by Grandma Sweater+August 14, 2007 06:21 pm--> (Grandma Sweater @ August 14, 2007 06:21 pm)
[email protected] 14, 2007 12:22 pm
PEOPLE the capitalist make for us faver becouse they didnt realise how many people respect Che and his revolution...with comercialisation they just give us more energy to struggle against them so it is not bad if you put on yourself t-shirt with Che face on it....but real danger of comercialisation is becouse if you were those kind stuff, for capitalist and agents it is easy to locate us...that is the reason why they comercialised Che
I disagree, here's why,

In teenage culture today, especially in the US, looking "rebellious" is cool or in vogue or whatever. Therefore, the salesmen are going to sell "rebellious" things because it will sell well. It's all to make a quick buck. [/b]
yeah you are right when we speak on micro social point
but i speak about macro social point
those who whant quick buck they dont think about revolution so they are...?
CAPITALISTS but on micro point
THOSE who printed t-širts and not support the revolution are...?
CAPITALISTS on macro point
so...

[Saint Street Revolution]

Originally posted by hajduk+August 15, 2007 04:55 pm--> (hajduk @ August 15, 2007 04:55 pm)
Originally posted by Grandma [email protected] 14, 2007 06:21 pm

[email protected] 14, 2007 12:22 pm
PEOPLE the capitalist make for us faver becouse they didnt realise how many people respect Che and his revolution...with comercialisation they just give us more energy to struggle against them so it is not bad if you put on yourself t-shirt with Che face on it....but real danger of comercialisation is becouse if you were those kind stuff, for capitalist and agents it is easy to locate us...that is the reason why they comercialised Che
I disagree, here's why,

In teenage culture today, especially in the US, looking "rebellious" is cool or in vogue or whatever. Therefore, the salesmen are going to sell "rebellious" things because it will sell well. It's all to make a quick buck.
yeah you are right when we speak on micro social point
but i speak about macro social point
those who whant quick buck they dont think about revolution so they are...?
CAPITALISTS but on micro point
THOSE who printed t-širts and not support the revolution are...?
CAPITALISTS on macro point
so... [/b]
The problem with your theory is that most people who where Che merchandise are not Communists. They most likely acknowledge this and therefore there are much more effective ways to gather information on active Comrades, such as internet forums like this (which is why RevLeft does not allow the posting of Personal information or a picture of yourself) among other things to identify Communists, Anarchists, and other Revolutionaries.

If real Communists ever really bought Che shirts at a Capitalist mall, your theory would most likely be right, but no dedicated Communist would buy in to that bullshit.

[Korey]

You know it would almost be better if Che's Image was banned. At least then people would find out about him and why it was banned.

[hajduk]

Originally posted by Grandma Sweater+August 16, 2007 07:07 pm--> (Grandma Sweater @ August 16, 2007 07:07 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 04:55 pm

Originally posted by Grandma [email protected] 14, 2007 06:21 pm

[email protected] 14, 2007 12:22 pm
PEOPLE the capitalist make for us faver becouse they didnt realise how many people respect Che and his revolution...with comercialisation they just give us more energy to struggle against them so it is not bad if you put on yourself t-shirt with Che face on it....but real danger of comercialisation is becouse if you were those kind stuff, for capitalist and agents it is easy to locate us...that is the reason why they comercialised Che
I disagree, here's why,

In teenage culture today, especially in the US, looking "rebellious" is cool or in vogue or whatever. Therefore, the salesmen are going to sell "rebellious" things because it will sell well. It's all to make a quick buck.
yeah you are right when we speak on micro social point
but i speak about macro social point
those who whant quick buck they dont think about revolution so they are...?
CAPITALISTS but on micro point
THOSE who printed t-širts and not support the revolution are...?
CAPITALISTS on macro point
so...
The problem with your theory is that most people who where Che merchandise are not Communists. They most likely acknowledge this and therefore there are much more effective ways to gather information on active Comrades, such as internet forums like this (which is why RevLeft does not allow the posting of Personal information or a picture of yourself) among other things to identify Communists, Anarchists, and other Revolutionaries.

If real Communists ever really bought Che shirts at a Capitalist mall, your theory would most likely be right, but no dedicated Communist would buy in to that bullshit. [/b]
then give me statistic results of how many communists buy t-shirts and how many non communists buy t-shirts

[Saint Street Revolution]

Originally posted by hajduk+August 21, 2007 03:29 pm--> (hajduk @ August 21, 2007 03:29 pm)
Originally posted by Grandma [email protected] 16, 2007 07:07 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 04:55 pm

Originally posted by Grandma [email protected] 14, 2007 06:21 pm

[email protected] 14, 2007 12:22 pm
PEOPLE the capitalist make for us faver becouse they didnt realise how many people respect Che and his revolution...with comercialisation they just give us more energy to struggle against them so it is not bad if you put on yourself t-shirt with Che face on it....but real danger of comercialisation is becouse if you were those kind stuff, for capitalist and agents it is easy to locate us...that is the reason why they comercialised Che
I disagree, here's why,

In teenage culture today, especially in the US, looking "rebellious" is cool or in vogue or whatever. Therefore, the salesmen are going to sell "rebellious" things because it will sell well. It's all to make a quick buck.
yeah you are right when we speak on micro social point
but i speak about macro social point
those who whant quick buck they dont think about revolution so they are...?
CAPITALISTS but on micro point
THOSE who printed t-širts and not support the revolution are...?
CAPITALISTS on macro point
so...
The problem with your theory is that most people who where Che merchandise are not Communists. They most likely acknowledge this and therefore there are much more effective ways to gather information on active Comrades, such as internet forums like this (which is why RevLeft does not allow the posting of Personal information or a picture of yourself) among other things to identify Communists, Anarchists, and other Revolutionaries.

If real Communists ever really bought Che shirts at a Capitalist mall, your theory would most likely be right, but no dedicated Communist would buy in to that bullshit.
then give me statistic results of how many communists buy t-shirts and how many non communists buy t-shirts [/b]
That's irrelevant, nor is it useful to any argument you may form. But I will answer with: look at it this way. If Che shirts are mainly sold at Capitalist malls. Who is going to reach them first, as most Leftists don't go to the mall as much? A Capitalist, a "rebellious" teenager who views Che as "cool" because he was a rebel. Leftists may buy a Che t-shirt at the mall, though it's contribution to the system, I know I have, but think about the ratio of Leftists to Rightists at a shopping mall.

Next up, I was talking about how there are more effecient ways to "track" Leftists, are you going to answer this or tip-toe around it, rather than argue? Unless you agree.

[hajduk]

Originally posted by Grandma Sweater+August 21, 2007 03:40 pm--> (Grandma Sweater @ August 21, 2007 03:40 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 21, 2007 03:29 pm

Originally posted by Grandma [email protected] 16, 2007 07:07 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 04:55 pm

Originally posted by Grandma [email protected] 14, 2007 06:21 pm

[email protected] 14, 2007 12:22 pm
PEOPLE the capitalist make for us faver becouse they didnt realise how many people respect Che and his revolution...with comercialisation they just give us more energy to struggle against them so it is not bad if you put on yourself t-shirt with Che face on it....but real danger of comercialisation is becouse if you were those kind stuff, for capitalist and agents it is easy to locate us...that is the reason why they comercialised Che
I disagree, here's why,

In teenage culture today, especially in the US, looking "rebellious" is cool or in vogue or whatever. Therefore, the salesmen are going to sell "rebellious" things because it will sell well. It's all to make a quick buck.
yeah you are right when we speak on micro social point
but i speak about macro social point
those who whant quick buck they dont think about revolution so they are...?
CAPITALISTS but on micro point
THOSE who printed t-širts and not support the revolution are...?
CAPITALISTS on macro point
so...
The problem with your theory is that most people who where Che merchandise are not Communists. They most likely acknowledge this and therefore there are much more effective ways to gather information on active Comrades, such as internet forums like this (which is why RevLeft does not allow the posting of Personal information or a picture of yourself) among other things to identify Communists, Anarchists, and other Revolutionaries.

If real Communists ever really bought Che shirts at a Capitalist mall, your theory would most likely be right, but no dedicated Communist would buy in to that bullshit.
then give me statistic results of how many communists buy t-shirts and how many non communists buy t-shirts
That's irrelevant, nor is it useful to any argument you may form. But I will answer with: look at it this way. If Che shirts are mainly sold at Capitalist malls. Who is going to reach them first, as most Leftists don't go to the mall as much? A Capitalist, a "rebellious" teenager who views Che as "cool" because he was a rebel. Leftists may buy a Che t-shirt at the mall, though it's contribution to the system, I know I have, but think about the ratio of Leftists to Rightists at a shopping mall.

Next up, I was talking about how there are more effecient ways to "track" Leftists, are you going to answer this or tip-toe around it, rather than argue? Unless you agree. [/b]
Dear grandma

i talking about macro point of viev
when capitalist see that teenagers were Che t-shirt they can realise possibility of how we serious about revolution and also they will try to make money on that
capitalists think by numbers
numbers is the only wheapon of capitalists
so if you dont have statistic results you cant talk to me about this topic

your Hajduk

[Saint Street Revolution]

Originally posted by hajduk+August 21, 2007 04:29 pm--> (hajduk @ August 21, 2007 04:29 pm)
Originally posted by Grandma [email protected] 21, 2007 03:40 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 21, 2007 03:29 pm

Originally posted by Grandma [email protected] 16, 2007 07:07 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 04:55 pm

Originally posted by Grandma [email protected] 14, 2007 06:21 pm

[email protected] 14, 2007 12:22 pm
PEOPLE the capitalist make for us faver becouse they didnt realise how many people respect Che and his revolution...with comercialisation they just give us more energy to struggle against them so it is not bad if you put on yourself t-shirt with Che face on it....but real danger of comercialisation is becouse if you were those kind stuff, for capitalist and agents it is easy to locate us...that is the reason why they comercialised Che
I disagree, here's why,

In teenage culture today, especially in the US, looking "rebellious" is cool or in vogue or whatever. Therefore, the salesmen are going to sell "rebellious" things because it will sell well. It's all to make a quick buck.
yeah you are right when we speak on micro social point
but i speak about macro social point
those who whant quick buck they dont think about revolution so they are...?
CAPITALISTS but on micro point
THOSE who printed t-širts and not support the revolution are...?
CAPITALISTS on macro point
so...
The problem with your theory is that most people who where Che merchandise are not Communists. They most likely acknowledge this and therefore there are much more effective ways to gather information on active Comrades, such as internet forums like this (which is why RevLeft does not allow the posting of Personal information or a picture of yourself) among other things to identify Communists, Anarchists, and other Revolutionaries.

If real Communists ever really bought Che shirts at a Capitalist mall, your theory would most likely be right, but no dedicated Communist would buy in to that bullshit.
then give me statistic results of how many communists buy t-shirts and how many non communists buy t-shirts
That's irrelevant, nor is it useful to any argument you may form. But I will answer with: look at it this way. If Che shirts are mainly sold at Capitalist malls. Who is going to reach them first, as most Leftists don't go to the mall as much? A Capitalist, a "rebellious" teenager who views Che as "cool" because he was a rebel. Leftists may buy a Che t-shirt at the mall, though it's contribution to the system, I know I have, but think about the ratio of Leftists to Rightists at a shopping mall.

Next up, I was talking about how there are more effecient ways to "track" Leftists, are you going to answer this or tip-toe around it, rather than argue? Unless you agree.
Dear grandma

i talking about macro point of viev
when capitalist see that teenagers were Che t-shirt they can realise possibility of how we serious about revolution and also they will try to make money on that
capitalists think by numbers
numbers is the only wheapon of capitalists
so if you dont have statistic results you cant talk to me about this topic

your Hajduk [/b]
Get it through your thick skull that usually Communists don't buy Che t-shirts from Capitalists.

Statistics are not needed, it's an easy thing to grasp that a mall is Capitalist, and the majority of people who shop at malls are Capitalist.

What do you not understand? This argument is running in circles.

[hajduk]

Originally posted by Grandma Sweater+August 21, 2007 04:37 pm--> (Grandma Sweater @ August 21, 2007 04:37 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 21, 2007 04:29 pm

Originally posted by Grandma [email protected] 21, 2007 03:40 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 21, 2007 03:29 pm

Originally posted by Grandma [email protected] 16, 2007 07:07 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 04:55 pm

Originally posted by Grandma [email protected] 14, 2007 06:21 pm

[email protected] 14, 2007 12:22 pm
PEOPLE the capitalist make for us faver becouse they didnt realise how many people respect Che and his revolution...with comercialisation they just give us more energy to struggle against them so it is not bad if you put on yourself t-shirt with Che face on it....but real danger of comercialisation is becouse if you were those kind stuff, for capitalist and agents it is easy to locate us...that is the reason why they comercialised Che
I disagree, here's why,

In teenage culture today, especially in the US, looking "rebellious" is cool or in vogue or whatever. Therefore, the salesmen are going to sell "rebellious" things because it will sell well. It's all to make a quick buck.
yeah you are right when we speak on micro social point
but i speak about macro social point
those who whant quick buck they dont think about revolution so they are...?
CAPITALISTS but on micro point
THOSE who printed t-širts and not support the revolution are...?
CAPITALISTS on macro point
so...
The problem with your theory is that most people who where Che merchandise are not Communists. They most likely acknowledge this and therefore there are much more effective ways to gather information on active Comrades, such as internet forums like this (which is why RevLeft does not allow the posting of Personal information or a picture of yourself) among other things to identify Communists, Anarchists, and other Revolutionaries.

If real Communists ever really bought Che shirts at a Capitalist mall, your theory would most likely be right, but no dedicated Communist would buy in to that bullshit.
then give me statistic results of how many communists buy t-shirts and how many non communists buy t-shirts
That's irrelevant, nor is it useful to any argument you may form. But I will answer with: look at it this way. If Che shirts are mainly sold at Capitalist malls. Who is going to reach them first, as most Leftists don't go to the mall as much? A Capitalist, a "rebellious" teenager who views Che as "cool" because he was a rebel. Leftists may buy a Che t-shirt at the mall, though it's contribution to the system, I know I have, but think about the ratio of Leftists to Rightists at a shopping mall.

Next up, I was talking about how there are more effecient ways to "track" Leftists, are you going to answer this or tip-toe around it, rather than argue? Unless you agree.
Dear grandma

i talking about macro point of viev
when capitalist see that teenagers were Che t-shirt they can realise possibility of how we serious about revolution and also they will try to make money on that
capitalists think by numbers
numbers is the only wheapon of capitalists
so if you dont have statistic results you cant talk to me about this topic

your Hajduk
Get it through your thick skull that usually Communists don't buy Che t-shirts from Capitalists.

Statistics are not needed, it's an easy thing to grasp that a mall is Capitalist, and the majority of people who shop at malls are Capitalist.

What do you not understand? This argument is running in circles. [/b]
Dear grandma

for yours arguments statistics results are needful to find out the real situation
anyone can say yeah teenagers buy Che t-shirts and that is it
but you must known that we speak about society on macro point not on micro point like you do
your Hajduk :D

[Saint Street Revolution]

Originally posted by hajduk+August 21, 2007 04:57 pm--> (hajduk @ August 21, 2007 04:57 pm)
Originally posted by Grandma [email protected] 21, 2007 04:37 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 21, 2007 04:29 pm

Originally posted by Grandma [email protected] 21, 2007 03:40 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 21, 2007 03:29 pm

Originally posted by Grandma [email protected] 16, 2007 07:07 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 04:55 pm

Originally posted by Grandma [email protected] 14, 2007 06:21 pm

[email protected] 14, 2007 12:22 pm
PEOPLE the capitalist make for us faver becouse they didnt realise how many people respect Che and his revolution...with comercialisation they just give us more energy to struggle against them so it is not bad if you put on yourself t-shirt with Che face on it....but real danger of comercialisation is becouse if you were those kind stuff, for capitalist and agents it is easy to locate us...that is the reason why they comercialised Che
I disagree, here's why,

In teenage culture today, especially in the US, looking "rebellious" is cool or in vogue or whatever. Therefore, the salesmen are going to sell "rebellious" things because it will sell well. It's all to make a quick buck.
yeah you are right when we speak on micro social point
but i speak about macro social point
those who whant quick buck they dont think about revolution so they are...?
CAPITALISTS but on micro point
THOSE who printed t-širts and not support the revolution are...?
CAPITALISTS on macro point
so...
The problem with your theory is that most people who where Che merchandise are not Communists. They most likely acknowledge this and therefore there are much more effective ways to gather information on active Comrades, such as internet forums like this (which is why RevLeft does not allow the posting of Personal information or a picture of yourself) among other things to identify Communists, Anarchists, and other Revolutionaries.

If real Communists ever really bought Che shirts at a Capitalist mall, your theory would most likely be right, but no dedicated Communist would buy in to that bullshit.
then give me statistic results of how many communists buy t-shirts and how many non communists buy t-shirts
That's irrelevant, nor is it useful to any argument you may form. But I will answer with: look at it this way. If Che shirts are mainly sold at Capitalist malls. Who is going to reach them first, as most Leftists don't go to the mall as much? A Capitalist, a "rebellious" teenager who views Che as "cool" because he was a rebel. Leftists may buy a Che t-shirt at the mall, though it's contribution to the system, I know I have, but think about the ratio of Leftists to Rightists at a shopping mall.

Next up, I was talking about how there are more effecient ways to "track" Leftists, are you going to answer this or tip-toe around it, rather than argue? Unless you agree.
Dear grandma

i talking about macro point of viev
when capitalist see that teenagers were Che t-shirt they can realise possibility of how we serious about revolution and also they will try to make money on that
capitalists think by numbers
numbers is the only wheapon of capitalists
so if you dont have statistic results you cant talk to me about this topic

your Hajduk
Get it through your thick skull that usually Communists don't buy Che t-shirts from Capitalists.

Statistics are not needed, it's an easy thing to grasp that a mall is Capitalist, and the majority of people who shop at malls are Capitalist.

What do you not understand? This argument is running in circles.
Dear grandma

for yours arguments statistics results are needful to find out the real situation
anyone can say yeah teenagers buy Che t-shirts and that is it
but you must known that we speak about society on macro point not on micro point like you do
your Hajduk :D [/b]
I will state a third time, all you need to do is think a little to come to the conclusion that a Leftist wouldn't shop in a Capitalist method such as the mall.

That's it. You're looking for an exact answer though you don't need it. Think for a second, Leftists don't shop at corporate Capitalist institutions. It's a sure thing that more Rightists buy products from malls then Leftists do.

This conversation is fucking stupid. Check this out though, http://english.pravda.ru/world/20/91/368/1...cheguevara.html (http://english.pravda.ru/world/20/91/368/16119_cheguevara.html). I wish they would hurry up on it.

[hajduk]

Originally posted by Grandma Sweater+August 21, 2007 05:03 pm--> (Grandma Sweater @ August 21, 2007 05:03 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 21, 2007 04:57 pm

Originally posted by Grandma [email protected] 21, 2007 04:37 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 21, 2007 04:29 pm

Originally posted by Grandma [email protected] 21, 2007 03:40 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 21, 2007 03:29 pm

Originally posted by Grandma [email protected] 16, 2007 07:07 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 04:55 pm

Originally posted by Grandma [email protected] 14, 2007 06:21 pm

[email protected] 14, 2007 12:22 pm
PEOPLE the capitalist make for us faver becouse they didnt realise how many people respect Che and his revolution...with comercialisation they just give us more energy to struggle against them so it is not bad if you put on yourself t-shirt with Che face on it....but real danger of comercialisation is becouse if you were those kind stuff, for capitalist and agents it is easy to locate us...that is the reason why they comercialised Che
I disagree, here's why,

In teenage culture today, especially in the US, looking "rebellious" is cool or in vogue or whatever. Therefore, the salesmen are going to sell "rebellious" things because it will sell well. It's all to make a quick buck.
yeah you are right when we speak on micro social point
but i speak about macro social point
those who whant quick buck they dont think about revolution so they are...?
CAPITALISTS but on micro point
THOSE who printed t-širts and not support the revolution are...?
CAPITALISTS on macro point
so...
The problem with your theory is that most people who where Che merchandise are not Communists. They most likely acknowledge this and therefore there are much more effective ways to gather information on active Comrades, such as internet forums like this (which is why RevLeft does not allow the posting of Personal information or a picture of yourself) among other things to identify Communists, Anarchists, and other Revolutionaries.

If real Communists ever really bought Che shirts at a Capitalist mall, your theory would most likely be right, but no dedicated Communist would buy in to that bullshit.
then give me statistic results of how many communists buy t-shirts and how many non communists buy t-shirts
That's irrelevant, nor is it useful to any argument you may form. But I will answer with: look at it this way. If Che shirts are mainly sold at Capitalist malls. Who is going to reach them first, as most Leftists don't go to the mall as much? A Capitalist, a "rebellious" teenager who views Che as "cool" because he was a rebel. Leftists may buy a Che t-shirt at the mall, though it's contribution to the system, I know I have, but think about the ratio of Leftists to Rightists at a shopping mall.

Next up, I was talking about how there are more effecient ways to "track" Leftists, are you going to answer this or tip-toe around it, rather than argue? Unless you agree.
Dear grandma

i talking about macro point of viev
when capitalist see that teenagers were Che t-shirt they can realise possibility of how we serious about revolution and also they will try to make money on that
capitalists think by numbers
numbers is the only wheapon of capitalists
so if you dont have statistic results you cant talk to me about this topic

your Hajduk
Get it through your thick skull that usually Communists don't buy Che t-shirts from Capitalists.

Statistics are not needed, it's an easy thing to grasp that a mall is Capitalist, and the majority of people who shop at malls are Capitalist.

What do you not understand? This argument is running in circles.
Dear grandma

for yours arguments statistics results are needful to find out the real situation
anyone can say yeah teenagers buy Che t-shirts and that is it
but you must known that we speak about society on macro point not on micro point like you do
your Hajduk :D
I will state a third time, all you need to do is think a little to come to the conclusion that a Leftist wouldn't shop in a Capitalist method such as the mall.

That's it. You're looking for an exact answer though you don't need it. Think for a second, Leftists don't shop at corporate Capitalist institutions. It's a sure thing that more Rightists buy products from malls then Leftists do.

This conversation is fucking stupid. Check this out though, http://english.pravda.ru/world/20/91/368/1...cheguevara.html (http://english.pravda.ru/world/20/91/368/16119_cheguevara.html). I wish they would hurry up on it. [/b]
Dear grandma

who said that revlefters buy in a malls?
i said you to find out that how many people buy Che t-shirts becouse they believe in revleft and how many buy those t-shirts just for fashion
grandma take your medicine and wake up seems that you missing the point all the time

your Hajduk ;)

[The-Spark]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21, 2007 05:43 pm

who said that revlefters buy in a malls?
i said you to find out that how many people buy Che t-shirts becouse they believe in revleft and how many buy those t-shirts just for fashion
grandma take your medicine and wake up seems that you missing the point all the time

your Hajduk ;)
Hajduk, i think your missing the point here, hes saying that yes, the che gueveara shirt is a fashion statement, but its not one for the leftists, but for the capitalists. If the leftist is a true leftist he would not buy into it, knowing he is supporting the capitalist. because the leftist should really be opposed to the commercialization of che and buying a leftist symbol from a capitalist!

[hajduk]

Originally posted by The-Spark+August 21, 2007 06:52 pm--> (The-Spark @ August 21, 2007 06:52 pm)
[email protected] 21, 2007 05:43 pm

who said that revlefters buy in a malls?
i said you to find out that how many people buy Che t-shirts becouse they believe in revleft and how many buy those t-shirts just for fashion
grandma take your medicine and wake up seems that you missing the point all the time

your Hajduk ;)
Hajduk, i think your missing the point here, hes saying that yes, the che gueveara shirt is a fashion statement, but its not one for the leftists, but for the capitalists. If the leftist is a true leftist he would not buy into it, knowing he is supporting the capitalist. because the leftist should really be opposed to the commercialization of che and buying a leftist symbol from a capitalist! [/b]
on this site you can buy Che t-shirts so is this site made by capitalists?

[rouchambeau]

Yeah. It's called recuperation. The system takes images of rebellion and turns them into harmless icons to sell for profit. Now that Che's image is incorporated into the marketplace, it becomes something to show off, not respect or learn about.

[Lamanov]

To give response on original question: yes, Che's image - with the whole philosophy of an image as such - is a statement of youthful false "rebellion" that stems from utter childish arrogance which crates a false rebellion of images, not a rebellion of practice-theory.

The soul fact that people use an image to make a "statement" clearly suggests that they are a long way - if ever - from understanding the whole essence of the 'society of spectacle', and addressing it properly.


The greatest success of commercialism is its ability to hide itself in a wrap of "realistic" impressions. That's why Che's image is so false. It creates a "revolution" on the field of commodity and entraps "revolutionaries" in that field. Thus, usage of "Che's image" is not 'revolutionary'. Its "statement" is not 'revolutionary'.

Further more...

Uncompromising usage of Che as a whole (not just the image) is not 'revolutionary', because previous experiences - revolutionary or not - are supposed to be questionable to the people who address it as practical-theoretical experience. Revolutionaries are supposed to be critics, inventors, optimistic inovators, not followers. So, Che's "revolutionary story", which is so deeply filled up with pathetic idealism, Stalinist rhetoric, with its unquestionable authoritarian reality, its ironic tragedy and with its defeated legacy, are of no use - no use at all - to a modern revolutionary project.

[Labor Shall Rule]

Originally posted by Organic [email protected] 14, 2007 05:59 am
Che's image has always been commercialized, be it by the socialists or the communists as a way to sell us revolution, for there own personal gains. I mean, if you really look into Che, you realize he wasn't that great of a person, you know the whole execution of gays and anarchist thing?
The whole execution of Trotskyists too.

[Saint Street Revolution]

Originally posted by hajduk+August 21, 2007 07:12 pm--> (hajduk @ August 21, 2007 07:12 pm)
Originally posted by The-[email protected] 21, 2007 06:52 pm

[email protected] 21, 2007 05:43 pm

who said that revlefters buy in a malls?
i said you to find out that how many people buy Che t-shirts becouse they believe in revleft and how many buy those t-shirts just for fashion
grandma take your medicine and wake up seems that you missing the point all the time

your Hajduk ;)
Hajduk, i think your missing the point here, hes saying that yes, the che gueveara shirt is a fashion statement, but its not one for the leftists, but for the capitalists. If the leftist is a true leftist he would not buy into it, knowing he is supporting the capitalist. because the leftist should really be opposed to the commercialization of che and buying a leftist symbol from a capitalist!
on this site you can buy Che t-shirts so is this site made by capitalists? [/b]
That's ridiculous. Advertisement keeps a site running. Does it occur to you that shit costs money? The best things they could advertise is what they advertise now. That Che store place, and links to websites for action like Shut Down the War Machine.

You can't escape Capitalism, no matter how Leftist you are.

[The-Spark]

What Grandma says is true, you cant fully follow a political system if thats not the political system your living in. We have to work minimum wage, and pay taxes and pay for stuff not cuz we want to but cuz we live in a Capitalist system, so we have no choice (but revolution)

[hajduk]

yes Spark i understand that
that is why i telling to Grandma that there is some people who are trully revlefters and also buy from you items that you sell here
DJ-TC is right we cant accept the Fuser revolution becouse that revolution bellong to past
but on that example we can do better and effective actions for revolution
and avoid mistakes from the past

[Saint Street Revolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 11:53 am
yes Spark i understand that
that is why i telling to Grandma that there is some people who are trully revlefters and also buy from you items that you sell here

You obviously don't understand. We're both making a point that you don't buy Capitalist shit if your a Communist. Your completely contradicting yourself. I'm done with this discussion, it's pointless.

[hajduk]

Originally posted by Grandma Sweater+August 22, 2007 07:19 pm--> (Grandma Sweater @ August 22, 2007 07:19 pm)
[email protected] 22, 2007 11:53 am
yes Spark i understand that
that is why i telling to Grandma that there is some people who are trully revlefters and also buy from you items that you sell here

You obviously don't understand. We're both making a point that you don't buy Capitalist shit if your a Communist. Your completely contradicting yourself. I'm done with this discussion, it's pointless. [/b]
Dear grandma

NO.. you say that revlefters dont buy in malls and i didnt say nothing about buying items from capitalists like Dolche&Gabbana and others i say to you that there is trully revlefters who buy items from this site and that what i say that capitalist do to us faver becouse now we can sell the revleft items to use the money for revolution and give people enthusiasm about revleft
you are missing the point all the time becouse you dont whana read what i telling you
ON THE OTHER HAND capitalists are very paranoid people so when they see how many teenagers buy revleft items from us they do some actions
that is negative aconotation of comercialised Fuser (Ches nickname)
Grandma did you take medications like i told you?

Your Hajduk