Evidence

[The-Spark]

Okay, for an assignment i need substantial evidence that communism will and has worked. I already pitted out the Paris Commune, but how can you make someone truly believe in communism if people will just throw back "but how do you know communism will work if it just a theory?" we need an answer for this if we can truly win people over.

[cenv]

It might help to mention the Spanish Revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Revolution) too. Many areas did function along communistic lines, although they were crushed within years. George Orwell's Homage to Catalonia has some interesting stuff on the Spanish Civil War.

Keep in mind, though, that there's no definitive "evidence" that communism will "work." The best you can do (besides citing the Paris Commune, Spanish Revolution, etc.) is find ways to counter all the popular objections to communism. Also, keep in mind that communism is not just a "theory" -- it's the logical conclusion of years upon years of class struggle. From the perspective of the working class, communism/anarchism/whatever is the only real way forward.

[Djehuti]

Communist relations has existed. Many primitive societies are organized in that fashion due to the fact that they don't accumulate values at all, and that their way of living make everyone in society fill a similar function and thus be threated pretty much as equals. There has also been more modern examples of communist societies. When America was somewhat young, it was a place of opportunity, and many minority groups went there to live as they wanted. For example, religious groups such as the Shakers moved to the new world and converte quite a lot to their movement. At some places (for example Zoar in Ohio and Harmony in Hampshire) they organized strictly religious societies based on communist principles such as common property. These communities dissappeared during time, due to the expansion of capitalism and the fact that the shakers did not reproduce efficiently. But these societies are said to have been quite wealthy and well-working.

Now, there is of cource major differences between this form of communism and the modern proletarian communism. They can not really be compared at all. But atleast these examples shatteres the myth of communism as something that contradicts with "human nature".

Proletarian communism has existed at times, following different communist uprisings. But never had they had much time of peace and stability, cause there was always the terrible reaction working against them. Besides, it is important to point out that once upon a time capitalism did not exist either.

Actually, I don't think we should fight for some kind of "future utopias" at all. These kind of deams has always been very dangerous and enabled severe atrocities (the moderniest garden-veiw). We struggle from below, here and now, for our real and common interests. That is what's really important.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

You must begin with a clear definition of communism. Many people believe communism cannot work because they have a vague and mistaken idea about what communism actually is.

The evidence that you should use also depends on the kind of "communism" that you wish to advocate. If you want to argue that a communal egalitarian society can work, you can talk about primitive communism, the Paris Commune, or various anarchist societies, as other comrades have suggested (because anarchists are the ones who wish to implement a communal egalitarian society immediately after the revolution; Marxists try to implement socialism first).

If you want to argue that a planned economy can work (which is technically socialism, not communism, but your readers probably don't know the difference and you'll have to explain it to them), then you can cite the economic achievements of planned economies in the past. For example, on average, planned economies experienced faster growth than market economies. I can look up some hard facts for you if you wish.

[hajduk]

in former YUGOSLAVIA this kind of system was wery god for us so you can read my topic about situation in former YUGOSLAVIA

[hajduk]

this what i wrote about Yugoslavia you can find on forum Politics on second page under the name FORMER YUGOSLAVIA

[Lamanov]

Originally posted by [email protected] 09, 2007 12:31 pm
in former YUGOSLAVIA this kind of system was wery god for us so you can read my topic about situation in former YUGOSLAVIA

He's asking for examples of working communism, not capitalism. (Suggestion: if you are making a refference to existing topic give us a link.)

Spark, basically, do a research on any movement which culminated in birth of workers' councils (from "below", of course).

[quirk]

Apart from the stage of primitive communism there never been communism anywhere. The Paris commune, the USSR and China are good example of how socialism worked.

[hajduk]

Originally posted by DJ-TC+August 09, 2007 02:04 pm--> (DJ-TC @ August 09, 2007 02:04 pm)
[email protected] 09, 2007 12:31 pm
in former YUGOSLAVIA this kind of system was wery god for us so you can read my topic about situation in former YUGOSLAVIA

He's asking for examples of working communism, not capitalism. (Suggestion: if you are making a refference to existing topic give us a link.)

Spark, basically, do a research on any movement which culminated in birth of workers' councils (from "below", of course). [/b]
you think that FORMER YUGOSLAVIA was capitalistic state?are you stoned?

[Black Cross]

Originally posted by [email protected] 09, 2007 06:15 pm
you think that FORMER YUGOSLAVIA was capitalistic state?are you stoned?
Well, either way, it wasn't communism; it was socialism.

I would definitely focus on the Paris Commune, since that seems to be quintessential socialism with a few minor defects. You could also include a few examples of things that you think China and Russia did well. But, as far as communism goes, there has yet to be a communist society, unfortunately; but if they are trying to refute communism because it is just a theory, then their argument is flawed, since, at one time or another, everything was just theory.

[hajduk]

Originally posted by Marxist-rev+August 09, 2007 07:12 pm--> (Marxist-rev @ August 09, 2007 07:12 pm)
[email protected] 09, 2007 06:15 pm
you think that FORMER YUGOSLAVIA was capitalistic state?are you stoned?
Well, either way, it wasn't communism; it was socialism.

I would definitely focus on the Paris Commune, since that seems to be quintessential socialism with a few minor defects. You could also include a few examples of things that you think China and Russia did well. But, as far as communism goes, there has yet to be a communist society, unfortunately; but if they are trying to refute communism because it is just a theory, then their argument is flawed, since, at one time or another, everything was just theory. [/b]
whatever Former Yugoslavia was not capitalistic state

[which doctor]

Originally posted by hajduk+August 10, 2007 12:24 pm--> (hajduk @ August 10, 2007 12:24 pm)
Originally posted by Marxist-[email protected] 09, 2007 07:12 pm

[email protected] 09, 2007 06:15 pm
you think that FORMER YUGOSLAVIA was capitalistic state?are you stoned?
Well, either way, it wasn't communism; it was socialism.

I would definitely focus on the Paris Commune, since that seems to be quintessential socialism with a few minor defects. You could also include a few examples of things that you think China and Russia did well. But, as far as communism goes, there has yet to be a communist society, unfortunately; but if they are trying to refute communism because it is just a theory, then their argument is flawed, since, at one time or another, everything was just theory.
whatever Former Yugoslavia was not capitalistic state [/b]
Do you have evidence that it was not a capitalist state?

It may not have had a free market, but that is not a prerequisite for capitalism.

[The-Spark]

How about ancient civilaizations? Any of those?

[Floyce White]

"Communism" is the natural, social way of interacting with others. The word refers to the lower class struggle to get rid of the class relations that suppress natural ecological interaction. If there were no such thing as the violence of property claims, there would be no politics and no such word as "communism."

The burden of proof is not on communists to prove that "communism can work," but on capitalists to prove their lie that "violence is social." Just disprove the lie. That's all you have to do. Tell that to your teacher.

[hajduk]

Originally posted by FoB+August 10, 2007 08:24 pm--> (FoB @ August 10, 2007 08:24 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 12:24 pm

Originally posted by Marxist-[email protected] 09, 2007 07:12 pm

[email protected] 09, 2007 06:15 pm
you think that FORMER YUGOSLAVIA was capitalistic state?are you stoned?
Well, either way, it wasn't communism; it was socialism.

I would definitely focus on the Paris Commune, since that seems to be quintessential socialism with a few minor defects. You could also include a few examples of things that you think China and Russia did well. But, as far as communism goes, there has yet to be a communist society, unfortunately; but if they are trying to refute communism because it is just a theory, then their argument is flawed, since, at one time or another, everything was just theory.
whatever Former Yugoslavia was not capitalistic state
Do you have evidence that it was not a capitalist state?

It may not have had a free market, but that is not a prerequisite for capitalism. [/b]
i am living evidence that former Yugoslavia was not capitalistic state,becouse i live in that time and i know that all firms in EX-YU was a state property

[cenv]

Socialism is more than sate control of the means of production. The state can seize the means of production while maintaining capitalistic social relations. You have to take a class-based approach.

[Kropotkin Has a Posse]

i am living evidence that former Yugoslavia was not capitalistic state,becouse i live in that time and i know that all firms in EX-YU was a state property
Ok, all that means is that the state was one very large capitalist.

[Robespierre2.0]

What's with the capitalist accusations here? According to what I've heard, Tito introduced worker's self-management to state-owned companies. In my opinion, Yugoslavia was one of the better examples of socialism in practice.

[RedHal]

when ppl proclaim the glory of capitalism over communism, they fail to realize that communist revolutions took place in 3rd world developing countries, they've never taken place in a 1st world industrialized nation. That's like capitalism has a 50m head start on communism in a 100m race. And to further add to the disparity, Russia and China were devestated during WWII, whereas the US came in late and came out pretty much unscathed.

Under Lenin/Stalin, USSR were able to industrialize and defeat the nazism became a superpower.

And here's some stuff about Maoist China and the improvements for the ppl:
http://www.dissident.info/c-quiz.pdf

[cenv]

Originally posted by Marxosaurus [email protected] 11, 2007 11:22 pm
What's with the capitalist accusations here? According to what I've heard, Tito introduced worker's self-management to state-owned companies. In my opinion, Yugoslavia was one of the better examples of socialism in practice.
Self-management is just a word. Here's a good article on how "self-management" played out in practice:

Yugoslavia: Model of Workers' Self-Management? (http://workersolidarity.org/yugoslavia.html)