A little word called ****

[Module]

What are your opinions on the use of the word "****"?
The meaning of the word doesn't seem to relate to any aspect of the female gender, which is the same as the word "prick" or "dick", so I'm just curious as to people's opinions on it's use?

[Niemand]

Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2007 09:27 am
What are your opinions on the use of the word "****"?
[b]The meaning of the word doesn't seem to relate to any aspect of the female gender[b], which is the same as the word "prick" or "dick", so I'm just curious as to people's opinions on it's use?
The word **** is synonymous, but is also used as a derogatory term used to describe women. It's unbecoming of a socialist to use it, but it really isn't an important issue.

[fashbash]

whats discriminatory about calling someone a ****? Its another name for a lady's vag btw, and its a brilliant thing to say to someone cos its still a bit shocking. But it sounds slightly lame if you call a lass a ****, like it does if you call a lad a *****.

[Tommy-K]

its only sexist if you mean it to be. which none of us on here do (hopefully)

i use it frequently due to my anti-censorship, controversy-loving stance

i just like to shock people

[rocker935]

Yes, like Tommy-K said, people have their right to say it. I don't know if I would use it only because I find it to be too crude for my liking but, if someone wants to say it that bad I think they should be aloud to say it. And personally, I don't find it sexist at all. Just crude as I stated before.

BTW, yay for my first post.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I have never heard anyone on my side of the pond (UK) call anyone female a **** - it seems to be an American thing which has thankfully not been imported here.

Can someone explain to me exactly why words like dick aren't sexist? I seem to get this impression from some people that women can't be insulted in any way whatsoever, which strikes me as ludicrous.

[homeo_apathy]

**** is part of most peoples regular vocab round here in brisbane Australia lol
i got called a **** rash the other day. All the girls i know hate guys saying it..

[LSD]

How about before we start comparing dialectic differences in the various regions of the world, we ask the question of what this has to do with discrimination? 'cause to be honest, I just don't see it.

I mean yeah, I see what I'm supposed to see, it's a dirty word, everybody likes to get all teary about the harm that it does to our poor little influential minds. But honestly, dpes anyone here seriously think that this has anything to do with real issues of discrimination in the world?

This really seems like more of this culture war bullshit that we're hearing more and more of these days. You know the line, we're getting ruder, we're getting crasser, the culture, it's getting harder, etc, etc...

Well, you know where they're really polite? Especially the women? Saudi Arabia. Bet 'ya won't hear the word **** in Saudi Arabia.

Because, you know, they're really into politeness in Saudi Arabia, very strict. In fact, they even have these police officers, I think they're called the mutaween, they go around enforcing these politeness rules.

So don't you worry! You won't hear a single bad word said about a woman in the whole damn country course you won't see a woman in the whole damn country, either. That's because they're not allowed to go outside..

Oh well, I suppose it's a small price to pay for ...politeness.

[blake 3:17]

Shocking people ain't all that.

There's a really pathetic use of the word on the Children of Men soundtrack. Jarvis Coker from Pulp is doing a kinda Lennon/Dylan protest song, and keeps referring to the world be ing run by ****s. I wish it were!

I agree with the comrade above that socialists shuoldn't be using it.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by blake 3:[email protected] 04, 2007 05:53 pm
Shocking people ain't all that.

...and? What the hell does this statement have to do with the thread?


There's a really pathetic use of the word on the Children of Men soundtrack. Jarvis Coker from Pulp is doing a kinda Lennon/Dylan protest song, and keeps referring to the world be ing run by ****s. I wish it were!
Why the fuck would you want a world run by ****s? It can either mean vagina, which is not something capable of running the world or an unpleasant, stupid or irritating person.


I agree with the comrade above that socialists shuoldn't be using it.
Why? YOu haven't said much of substance to support this, you're just knee-jerking.

[Palmares]

Originally posted by wikipedia
Some feminists seek to reclaim **** as an acceptable word for the female genitalia, in the interest of removing the power associated with its use. Some abhor the word and regard it, based on its more recent connotation, as degrading and misogynistic. It has also been suggested that "vagina" is equally offensive as it literally means "scabbard" in Latin [8], and is in any case incorrect as a term for the external female genitalia.

Some reject an exclusively negative connotation as inherently sexist towards women, and claim that insult is an inappropriate usage for a word used to epitomise femaleness.

Critics of the word claim that the lack of any comparable term for the male genitalia demonstrates a profound cultural contempt, not only for specific females, but for women in general. Defenders of the word argue that terms for male genitals are used in an equally insulting way, though they claim the degree of this "equivalence" differs between English speaking cultures (examples include "cock", "prick", "dick-head", "utter balls" (or "bollocks") [British], etc). However, these words generally aren't held to be as offensive or taboo as ****. Despite these criticisms, there is a small movement amongst some feminists that seek to reclaim **** as an honorific, in much the same way that "queer" has been reclaimed by homosexuals [9]. Proponents include Inga Muscio in her book, ****: A Declaration of Independence, and Eve Ensler in her monologue "Reclaiming ****" (from "The Vagina Monologues").

The word was similarly reclaimed by Angela Carter who used it in the title story of "The Bloody Chamber and Other Stories"; a female character describing female genitalia in a pornography book: “her **** a split fig below the great globes of her buttocks”.[2]

More recently, Germaine Greer, who had previously published a magazine article entitled Lady, Love Your ****[3], discussed the origins, usage and power of the word in the BBC series Balderdash and Piffle, which examines the etymology of many English words and phrases, most especially those whose origins have limited written evidence (required to be included as citations in the Oxford English Dictionary). Greer suggests at the end of the piece that there is something precious about the word, in that it is now one of the few remaining words in English that still retains its power to shock.

link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/****#Feminist_viewpoints)

The main point is, whether this term, relating to female genitalia, has an equal equivalent for males, and in my opinion, give the inequities of ther structural oppression caused my patriarchy, I think not.

[Cheung Mo]

A bourgeois feminist is one who finds the word **** more offensive than the conditions of working women among the exploited classes.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by Cheung [email protected] 04, 2007 10:02 pm
A bourgeois feminist is one who finds the word **** more offensive than the conditions of working women among the exploited classes.
This is correct.

[Sir_No_Sir]

Explain how **** reinforces sexism. It just doesn't..

[syndicat]

Okay, I'm going to argue the unpopular position here. Let's suppose you're a woman coming into a traditionally male-dominated occupation, like carpenter, or machinist or whatever. What can happen is that males use derogatory terms about the women as a way to intimidate them, to preserve their work as a male preserve. This can include a variety of things that make the environment unfriendly to women, including posting nude posters of women in the work areas, not only language used. but use of derogatory language about women is part of creating a woman-unfriendly environment. you might say that derogatory language is used by men towards men in conversation, like calling someone a "prick" when you're pissed at his conduct. but it's a good idea to be aware of the inequality between different groups, and how talking about them in a derogatory way is part of perpetuating their subordination. creating a work environment that is unfriendly to women discriminates against them in that it is part of how male domination of certain kinds of work...usually better paying work...is sustained.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Okay, I'm going to argue the unpopular position here. Let's suppose you're a woman coming into a traditionally male-dominated occupation, like carpenter, or machinist or whatever. What can happen is that males use derogatory terms about the women as a way to intimidate them, to preserve their work as a male preserve.

if the motivation behind such language is to discourage women, then yes it is sexist, but that is not a blank cheque for banning certain words because of their use by sexist dickheads.


This can include a variety of things that make the environment unfriendly to women, including posting nude posters of women in the work areas, not only language used.

Oh, good grief. Do you seriously think that women are so emotionally fragile that nudie posters somehow threaten them? That's as preposterous as me complaining when a gay co-worker puts up pictures of muscled beefcakes in his workspace.


but use of derogatory language about women is part of creating a woman-unfriendly environment.

Or it could simply be a case of using insults appropriate to the sex of the recipient of said insult - for example, co-worker XYZ is pissing me off, so I call them a shithead/***** depending on their sex.

To assume either case as the default ignores context, so such things must be dealt with on a case-by-case basis.


you might say that derogatory language is used by men towards men in conversation, like calling someone a "prick" when you're pissed at his conduct. but it's a good idea to be aware of the inequality between different groups, and how talking about them in a derogatory way is part of perpetuating their subordination.

The word "****" in this case is most often directed by men toward men. the idea that this somehow subordinates women is totally ridiculous - true subordination is achieved by paying women less, bullying them for being female and other associated actions, not words.

[syndicat]

The word "****" in this case is most often directed by men toward men. the idea that this somehow subordinates women is totally ridiculous - true subordination is achieved by paying women less, bullying them for being female and other associated actions, not words.

Words are actions. And i've never heard the word "****" used towards men in the USA.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by Cheung [email protected] 04, 2007 10:02 pm
A bourgeois feminist is one who finds the word **** more offensive than the conditions of working women among the exploited classes.
Exactly.

And a proletarian machista is someone who thinks being brutally exploited by the capitalist system is not punishment enough for the crime of being a woman, so that it needs to be supplemented with namecalling, threats, harrassment, and physical aggression.

Luís Henrique

[Goatse]

Originally posted by Niemand+May 01, 2007 10:08 am--> (Niemand @ May 01, 2007 10:08 am)
[email protected] 01, 2007 09:27 am
What are your opinions on the use of the word "****"?
The meaning of the word doesn't seem to relate to any aspect of the female gender[b], which is the same as the word "prick" or "dick", so I'm just curious as to people's opinions on it's use?
The word **** is synonymous, but is also used as a derogatory term used to describe women. It's unbecoming of a socialist to use it, but it really isn't an important issue.
Yeah, but obviously it's OK to call someone a dick, a cock, a prick etc. :rolleyes:

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 02:36 am
The word "****" in this case is most often directed by men toward men.
Yes - calling someone a woman is an insult, for some screwed up minds.

Luís Henrique

[syndicat]

"The word "****" in this case is most often directed by men toward men."

Yes - calling someone a woman is an insult, for some screwed up minds.

yeah it is, in a culture of machismo. it's like calling someone a "sissy". in the work environment this can lead to individualism if it means that men take the attitude that complaining about unsafe conditions or lousy treatment is being a "sissy", and unmanly.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 03:02 pm

"The word "****" in this case is most often directed by men toward men."

Yes - calling someone a woman is an insult, for some screwed up minds.

yeah it is, in a culture of machismo. it's like calling someone a "sissy". in the work environment this can lead to individualism if it means that men take the attitude that complaining about unsafe conditions or lousy treatment is being a "sissy", and unmanly.
Are you somehow contending that using the word **** will result in a lack of worker consciousness?

Also I have never heard the word **** used in the same manner as sissy.

:redstar2000:

[Reuben]

i have never heard the word **** used in that manner either. as far as I am concerned the use of the word **** is fine because vagina's are objectively disgusting.

[syndicat]

as far as I am concerned the use of the word **** is fine because vagina's are objectively disgusting.

and you don't see the sexism in saying that? I certainly don't find vaginas disgusting.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 02:25 pm

as far as I am concerned the use of the word **** is fine because vagina's are objectively disgusting.

and you don't see the sexism in saying that? I certainly don't find vaginas disgusting.
Most genitals look disgusting to most people. I'm fairly sure you wouldn't want me waving my danglies in your face.

[Reuben]

yes stop being ridiculous syndicat. would it be anti-human to say that arsewholes are disgusting

obviosuly i was being slightly silly in my use of the term objectively - but their is nothing sexist in what i said.

[syndicat]

an anus is very different than a vagina. a vagina is a source of pleasure for both males and females, and the source of new life.

[Joanne]

Words are just words. It's the intent behind them that matters. We call each other a lot of insulting names because, at bottom, we have no respect for ourselves or each other. If we truly respected each other words like "****" would not exist.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Originally posted by syndicat+--> (syndicat)Words are actions.[/b]

You are delusional. Words have no intrinsic power, therefore they cannot be actions as actions have a certain amount of power. Verbal bullying is an action because it has a specific purpose of demeaning the intended victim. But if one uses words like **** without the intention of purposeless degrading & bullying, instead using such words to give a quick idea of how one feels about them - rather than trying to lengthily explain exactly what makes that person an annoying ****, one simply calls them an annoying **** and leaves it at that.


Originally posted by Luis Henrique+--> (Luis Henrique)And a proletarian machista is someone who thinks being brutally exploited by the capitalist system is not punishment enough for the crime of being a woman, so that it needs to be supplemented with namecalling, threats, harrassment, and physical aggression.[/b]

Take your strawman and shove it up your arse where it belongs. Nobody here is condoning threats, harassment, or physical aggression.


Originally posted by Luis Henrique
Yes - calling someone a woman is an insult, for some screwed up minds.

I think the fact that you equate being a woman with the word **** tells us more about your own screwed-up mind.


[email protected]
an anus is very different than a vagina. a vagina is a source of pleasure for both males and females, and the source of new life.

The anus also provides pleasure to both sexes. And how does the fact that babies pop out of the vagina make it special?


Joanne
We call each other a lot of insulting names because, at bottom, we have no respect for ourselves or each other. If we truly respected each other words like "****" would not exist.

ZOMG we have no respect!!!!111!! Untrue. I respect my family and my friends, and we jokingly call each other rude names because the amount of respect we have allows for that. Unless you are a mind reader you cannot in all seriousness make that massive accusation you just placed at the collective feet of the entire human race.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by NoXion+May 07, 2007 10:08 pm--> (NoXion @ May 07, 2007 10:08 pm)
Luis Henrique
And a proletarian machista is someone who thinks being brutally exploited by the capitalist system is not punishment enough for the crime of being a woman, so that it needs to be supplemented with namecalling, threats, harrassment, and physical aggression.

Take your strawman and shove it up your arse where it belongs. Nobody here is condoning threats, harassment, or physical aggression. [/b]
Hey, didn't your mother give you some education? :wacko:

Luís Henrique

[whoknows]

I believe that in your question about the usage of the word ****, that is being used as a synomin for *****. ***** it's self probably comes from "whepping *****'. A whepping ***** is a female dog which having given birth will instinctively protect her pup to the point of attacking her master. I can just see an english farmer going to the pub and complaining about his wife acting like a a whepping ***** because she's complaining about his behavior or lack of such. The phrase would then be shorten over time to ***** and to mean any woman who was disagreable to the speaker. The meaning then expanded to any disagreable person or condition. At least that is what I think. However, such usage of each word should be discouraged, as the use of ***** to mean woman is unnessarily brutal and robs us of a better term for a female dog, that the sickening 'little girl dog' which I have heard.
As for ****, using that and other sexual terms such as sucker is at root contemptous of sex and is hypocritical in the mouths of anyone who likes sex. Save such usage for religious persons.
and remimber, if it really did suck, it would have a redeaming social value.

[whoknows]

In the common usage that I hear '****' is synonymous with '*****' and is never used to refer to gay men as is sissy. Until recently **** has been used exclusively to discribe disagreeable women but it is now sometimes used to discribe disagreeable men. There is a sugestion that the subject of the term is less manly but not homosexual. Sissy is still being used here to discribe males with a high index of homosexual mannerisms.
A lesbian once pointed out to me that 'effemment' men didn't act like women. Upon reflection I had to agree with her. Sissyness just seems to be the native expession of the male homosexual masculinity, although a great many of us suppress it almost completely in order to cope with hetero socity.
If sissy is derived, as I believe from 'sister' and is used to put down women (manly men are vaulable, men who 'act like women' aren't because women are not vaulable) , then it should, therefore, not be used to discribe homosexual men, any more than efemment' (however that word might be spelled if one had a dictionary at hand.
BUT, if you're in the sack with someone who likes to talk dirty, well honey, yet the good times roll.

[Red_Pride]

I find it as insulting as the word 'Prick.'

[FinnMacCool]

**** can be sexist depending on the context. I don't really choose my words very carefully though. I hate being politically correct.

[Craig]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 11:35 am
i have never heard the word **** used in that manner either. as far as I am concerned the use of the word **** is fine because vagina's are objectively disgusting.
Heck, I'm sorry you feel that way... but at least now there's more for me.

-Craig (http://www.twolegsbad.org/blog/)

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by Craig+May 11, 2007 10:09 pm--> (Craig @ May 11, 2007 10:09 pm)
[email protected] 07, 2007 11:35 am
i have never heard the word **** used in that manner either. as far as I am concerned the use of the word **** is fine because vagina's are objectively disgusting.
Heck, I'm sorry you feel that way... but at least now there's more for me.

-Craig (http://www.twolegsbad.org/blog/) [/b]
This will probably, rightfully, be deleted as spam but here goes:

Considering genitals disgusting and considering sex disgusting are entirely separate concepts. Think about it for a second.

[JayFitz]

takes a pirate to know this, I suppose.

The origin of the word **** comes from ropework and is a technical term describing certain details in the lay of strand line as well as knots.

Just thought I'd add that.

[coda]

i've heard that

[Reuben]

Originally posted by Jazzratt+May 12, 2007 01:45 am--> (Jazzratt @ May 12, 2007 01:45 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 10:09 pm

[email protected] 07, 2007 11:35 am
i have never heard the word **** used in that manner either. as far as I am concerned the use of the word **** is fine because vagina's are objectively disgusting.
Heck, I'm sorry you feel that way... but at least now there's more for me.

-Craig (http://www.twolegsbad.org/blog/)
This will probably, rightfully, be deleted as spam but here goes:

Considering genitals disgusting and considering sex disgusting are entirely separate concepts. Think about it for a second. [/b]
exactly.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 01:52 am
takes a pirate to know this, I suppose.

The origin of the word **** comes from ropework and is a technical term describing certain details in the lay of strand line as well as knots.

Just thought I'd add that.
I knew there was a **** knot, but I didn't know that it's where the name came from - how did you find this out?

[whoknows]

I'ld like some documentating for the nautical orig. of the word as well. I'm sure it was used by Chaucer, and is very very old.

Isn't disliking the appearance of genitalia just a bit repressed?

[JayFitz]

I teach sailing and miscellaneous nautical arcana. . .it comes with the territory.

A hell of a lot of our languages does, more than people think.

[JayFitz]

I'd think the oxford english dictionary is probably the best source.

The "****" of a line the separation of each tuck in three strand line. As well, it is applied to the tuck in the "crotch" of a splice. If you view the two "legs" of the loop of a splice, the "****' is right "crotch" where you may think it to be. You'll see immediately the natural parallel.

The best book in the world on knots:

http://www.amazon.com/Ashley-book-knots-Cl...y/dp/B000KKTDKI (http://www.amazon.com/Ashley-book-knots-Clifford-Ashely/dp/B000KKTDKI)

Out of print again, unfortunately, as tonnes of really poor knot books still abound.

and a shameless plug, my book

http://www.amazon.com/Sea-Steading-Life-Fr...r/dp/0595387586 (http://www.amazon.com/Sea-Steading-Life-Freedom-Viable-Frontier/dp/0595387586)

[Craig]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 01:45 am
This will probably, rightfully, be deleted as spam but here goes:


Well, it appears you were wrong. It wasn't spam and it wasn't deleted. It was interjecting levity into a discussion that has devolved into intellectual masturbation.

Quite frankly, I was replying to a juvenile comment by someone who said something stupid. I replied in a level that suited the original comment in language that person could understand.


Considering genitals disgusting and considering sex disgusting are entirely separate concepts. Think about it for a second.

Anything is POSSIBLE, but enjoying sex while despising sex organs reveals a level of repression that is incompatible with revolutionary liberation... That's just my opinion, of course.

Hating sexual organs and/or finding them disgusting is an indication of some extreme mental dysfunction, probably brought about (perhaps subsconsciously) by religious and social indoctrination.

-Craig

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by Craig+May 15, 2007 07:18 pm--> (Craig @ May 15, 2007 07:18 pm)
[email protected] 12, 2007 01:45 am
This will probably, rightfully, be deleted as spam but here goes:


Well, it appears you were wrong. It wasn't spam and it wasn't deleted. It was interjecting levity into a discussion that has devolved into intellectual masturbation.

Quite frankly, I was replying to a juvenile comment by someone who said something stupid. I replied in a level that suited the original comment in language that person could understand. [/b]
Well shit, so I was.

I'm pretty certain that making a single comment, no matter how batshit it sounds, does not have any bearing on one's lexical range - but that's just my supposition.



Considering genitals disgusting and considering sex disgusting are entirely separate concepts. Think about it for a second.

Anything is POSSIBLE,
Anything? So how does one make an FTL vehicle using only an acorn and a roll of gaffer tape?


but enjoying sex while despising sex organs reveals a level of repression that is incompatible with revolutionary liberation... That's just my opinion, of course.
It's not as nutty as some opinions I've read but it certainly seems safe to categorise it as bollocks.


Hating sexual organs and/or finding them disgusting is an indication of some extreme mental dysfunction, probably brought about (perhaps subsconsciously) by religious and social indoctrination.
That or it is aesthetics. Occam's razor should soon sort this out:

1. People have been magically repressed by some kind of wizard/priests and therefore find something displeasing to look at.

2. A single individual thinks that looking at someone's fleshy aperture isn't aesthetically pleasing.

Well, would you look at that. It seems to me that your "societal voodoo" theory posits a greater number of entities and a higher level of complexity.

Would you say that the fact I like cheese but find the process of making it utterly nauseating is a sign of some extreme mental dysfunction brought on by these society wizards and their aesthetics voodoo?

[girl#13]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 07:26 pm
I'ld like some documentating for the nautical orig. of the word as well. I'm sure it was used by Chaucer, and is very very old.


It was, in the Miller's Tale, I think.

There is another use of the word **** that hasn't been bought up yet - it's use in lesbian (and straight/ bi I suppose though I don't know) erotica. I'm pretty sure this is linked to it's being reclaimed by feminists, and certainly that's a part of the reason I quite happily use the word, although you do get euphumisms a lot still.

Personally, I like the word ****, it's a very satisfying swear word, and people don't seem to have the same problem with the word twat, which can have the same meaning, so I really don't see the problem with it.

[whoknows]

Originally posted by [email protected] 09, 2007 01:10 am
BUT, if you're in the sack with someone who likes to talk dirty, well honey, yet the good times roll.
Dear Girl 13,
I thought that I did bring up the eroical.
thank you for your responce. I liked it. Did you read anywhere that it may accutaly be from a pre-english british tounge and mean woman or concerning woman? We'll never know.

[fordan55]

the word **** is not a bad in the way it is used to vag but it is used by some one wishing to mock or haras a girl witch is not very good It can be compared to calling a guy a dick. But the word is less demening were as dick can be like ass hole to a guy I doun't know if a girl would handel it like that or handel it like a black person would handel the N word?

[Sean]

I would call a guy a **** and girls dicks depending on the situation. In fact I've heard more men called **** in my life than girls so I don't consider it offensive.

However, I have heard the term used against women by a lot of people. Not just "women are ****s" but rather by people only defining them as "****s" in general situations.

In those cases they were dicks, but I'll continue to swear as I see fit

[girl#13]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 02:44 am
However, I have heard the term used against women by a lot of people. Not just "women are ****s" but rather by people only defining them as "****s" in general situations.


See, that I would find a bit offensive, not because of the word at all, but because of the context and objectification of it, in the same way that I don't really like it when men refer to girls/women as 'birds'.

[praxis1966]

From the Online Etymology Dictionary (http://www.etymonline.com):


****

"female intercrural foramen," or, as some 18c. writers refer to it, "the monosyllable," M.E. ****e "female genitalia," akin to O.N. kunta, from P.Gmc. *kunton, of uncertain origin. Some suggest a link with L. cuneus "wedge," others to PIE base *geu- "hollow place," still others to PIE *gwen-, root of queen and Gk. gyne "woman." The form is similar to L. cunnus "female pudenda," which is likewise of disputed origin, perhaps lit. "gash, slit," from PIE *sker- "to cut," or lit. "sheath," from PIE *kut-no-, from base *(s)keu- "to conceal, hide." First known reference in Eng. is said to be c.1230 Oxford or London street name Grope****lane, presumably a haunt of prostitutes. Avoided in public speech since 15c.; considered obscene since 17c. Du. cognate de kont means "a bottom, an arse." Du. also has attractive poetic slang ways of expressing this part, such as liefdesgrot, lit. "cave of love," and vleesroos "rose of flesh." Alternate form cunny is attested from c.1720 but is certainly much earlier and forced a change in the pronunciation of coney (q.v.), but it was good for a pun while coney was still the common word for "rabbit": "A pox upon your Christian cockatrices! They cry, like poulterers' wives, 'No money, no coney.' " [Massinger, 1622]

In other words, it could come from Old Norse, Greek, or Latin, or the hypothetical Proto-Indo-European or Proto-Germanic (which English is thought to derive from). As a sidenote, my favorite part is the circa 1230 street name Grope****lane. LMAO

[Le People]

Look, I'm a male, and I absolutely abhorr the term. It should not be used in refernce to women, or the vaginia. It should not be used as the word wanker or dick is used to describe a person's personality. "****" just seems like the female version of "nigger". (Yet another term I don't agree with) Its offence. It says that a woman is not a woman but rather her vaginia. It also means that being woman is a dirty, negative thing. Thats how it seems to me. What do you think? And should we ban its use from posts on this website?

[Ol' Dirty]

Context is very important with the use of any word.

[Faux Real]

I don't think Jazzrat could last a day without it, so there goes the 'banning' of it. :lol:

Don't use the word myself, though I don't have a problem with it being used unless it's in a deliberate attempt to insult a woman. It's just a word, the context is what defines it.

My 2¢.

Edit:

Context is very important with the use of any word.
Beat me to it...

[The-Spark]

uh what they said :lol:

[NorthStarRepublicML]

it does seem a little foolish to use words like **** and nigga and then advocate racial and gender equality .... some of the left here need to practice what they preach ...

although the words we use might not seem important, they contribute to how we are viewed ...


I don't think Jazzrat could last a day without it

HA! more like an hour! i've called jazz on it before i think i got called another nonsensical slur and then told to shut up, thankfully Jazzrat is pretty much irrelevant

[Le People]

Context is important. But the word ****, in the english language, is a vulgar word for a woman's vagina, or just a woman herself. By considering someone you despise or consider an asshole a "****" one is saying that they are a woman or vagina. So we're using being a woman as an insult. After all, don't people frown on this board over one another calling each other a "Faggot"?

[The-Spark]

Originally posted by Le [email protected] 04, 2007 05:15 am
Context is important. But the word ****, in the english language, is a vulgar word for a woman's vagina, or just a woman herself. By considering someone you despise or consider an asshole a "****" one is saying that they are a woman or vagina. So we're using being a woman as an insult. After all, don't people frown on this board over one another calling each other a "Faggot"?
oooh good comeback. i agree, if we believe in equality why do we use such words that denounce equality?

[Never Give In]

Originally posted by Le [email protected] 04, 2007 01:15 am
Context is important. But the word ****, in the english language, is a vulgar word for a woman's vagina, or just a woman herself. By considering someone you despise or consider an asshole a "****" one is saying that they are a woman or vagina. So we're using being a woman as an insult. After all, don't people frown on this board over one another calling each other a "Faggot"?
It doesn't matter as much what it's actual roots and meaning are as opposed to how people actually use it. Like how people use homophobia as "hatred toward homosexuals" but it actually means "fear of a same-sex relationship". You just have to pretty much accept how things are used and judge the phrases in that way.

[Jazzratt]

BORING. We've discussed this topic to death, stop being a repetitive ****.


Originally posted by NorthShiteRepuglicML
i've called jazz on it before

Oh fuck off you irritating turd, just because you and a small minority of leftists believe that the word magically oppresses women doesn't mean you should be proud of yourself when you self-righteously "call someone out". Prick.


Here (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=65980) is a recent discussion on the word.

[TC]

Yes, women are extremely fragile and hearing any negative references to their anatomy that fails to affirm how beautiful and goddess-like they are will cause them to shrivel up into a ball of insecure pity. Remember, even the most mild embarrassment or ridicule can be fatal to girls, who, unlike boys who can take it, need constant affirmation.

Thank goodness we have big strong men like you to protect us from from hearing such bad, offensive, degrading words!




It should not be used as the word wanker or dick is used to describe a person's personality. ...

...By considering someone you despise or consider an asshole a "****" one is saying that they are a woman or vagina. So we're using being a woman as an insult.

This is interesting.

If you think someone is an asshole and you refer to them as a **** thats the same as saying they're a woman?

Or that saying someone is a vagina is somehow categorically worse than saying that someone is an anus.

Women also have assholes...but saying someone's an asshole doesn't, apparently bother you, given your free use of the term as neutral description of someone who is despised.

Similarly you don't have any problem with someone using the term "dick" to describe someone despised. You seem to be aware that having a dick and being a dick are two entirely separate concepts and that the later is insulting but the former is neither insulting nor is it implied.

So why do you conceptualize the word **** totally differently? What i'd say you are, in essence doing, is equating women with their anatomical differences from men, reducing them to their bodies as if women weren't any more than that. It reveals your own sexism more than anything else.

[NorthStarRepublicML]

Oh fuck off you irritating turd, just because you and a small minority of leftists believe that the word magically oppresses women doesn't mean you should be proud of yourself when you self-righteously "call someone out". Prick.

i didn't say i was proud of myself, i just told it like it is ....

while your creative slurs and insults might work perfectly fine for you on the internet if you talk like that to people in the real world you are going to catch some shit for it sooner or later .... on top of that no one takes you seriously when you call them a "****" or a "prick" or throw in "turd" along with your arguments (most of which are just about as rabid as your language).

if i got up in front of a group and began to talk of gender equality then proceeded to call the president and the government or capitalists in general "pussies" and "twats" and "****s" and "cocksuckers" i would be dismissed by the majority, even if all my other points were acceptable, like it or not people are sensitive to language ...

call me a prick if you like, you're still an idiot ... no amount of cussing and foul language can change that ....

perhaps words in themselves don't oppress women or whatever but they do offend people, which is something that the left needs to avoid doing when unnecessary ... disagree?

[Le People]

Yes, women are extremely fragile and hearing any negative references to their anatomy that fails to affirm how beautiful and goddess-like they are will cause them to shrivel up into a ball of insecure pity. Remember, even the most mild embarrassment or ridicule can be fatal to girls, who, unlike boys who can take it, need constant affirmation.

Thank goodness we have big strong men like you to protect us from from hearing such bad, offensive, degrading words!




QUOTE
It should not be used as the word wanker or dick is used to describe a person's personality. ...

...By considering someone you despise or consider an asshole a "****" one is saying that they are a woman or vagina. So we're using being a woman as an insult.



This is interesting.

If you think someone is an asshole and you refer to them as a **** thats the same as saying they're a woman?

Or that saying someone is a vagina is somehow categorically worse than saying that someone is an anus.

Women also have assholes...but saying someone's an asshole doesn't, apparently bother you, given your free use of the term as neutral description of someone who is despised.

Similarly you don't have any problem with someone using the term "dick" to describe someone despised. You seem to be aware that having a dick and being a dick are two entirely separate concepts and that the later is insulting but the former is neither insulting nor is it implied.

So why do you conceptualize the word **** totally differently? What i'd say you are, in essence doing, is equating women with their anatomical differences from men, reducing them to their bodies as if women weren't any more than that. It reveals your own sexism more than anything else.


You've never heard the term used to mean a woman? Example: "She's a real ****." Its the feminine version of nigger. So shall we tell our African descendant members on the board to put up with being called a nigger? Or how about our homosexual members? Can we just causally refer to them as faggots, or fruits? I'm not a sexist. I'm merely pointing out the attroiceness of the word. The use of calling a woman that or a vaginia is a product of society invested with Frued. Atanotmy is destiny. I'd accept the word if it did, as you say come to mean the same as a dick, but that ain't the truth. I can't help that. So, either change its meaning in all of soceity, and decleanse everyone of Freud, or how about we just stop using it. Which sounds easier?

Wikitionary-(UK, US, vulgar, slang, countable) The female genitalia, especially the vulva.
If I’m honest, my favourite part of her body is probably her ****.
(UK, US, pejorative, slang, countable) An extremely unpleasant or objectionable person (in US, especially a woman; in UK or Ireland, more usually a man).
You utter ****.
(UK, vulgar, slang, countable) An objectionable object or item.
Fix the car? I’ll sort the **** out at the weekend.
(UK, US, vulgar, slang) An unpleasant or difficult experience or incident.
I had a **** of a day. It was a **** of an experience getting through it.
(vulgar, slang, countable and uncountable) A woman or women as a source of sex.

Correction to anyone out there: I guess the situtatioun I'm refering to is more of an American phenomenon. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

[Janus]

**** (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=65980)
**** (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=61970)

Like others have said, the use of the word depends on its context; when used to derogatively refer to females then it would be sexist but in some areas, it is used as a term of endearment. With that said, it's a lot more effective to attack the practical manifestations of sexism than abstract definitions.

[counterblast]

Originally posted by Le [email protected] 04, 2007 05:15 am
Context is important. But the word ****, in the english language, is a vulgar word for a woman's vagina, or just a woman herself. By considering someone you despise or consider an asshole a "****" one is saying that they are a woman or vagina. So we're using being a woman as an insult. After all, don't people frown on this board over one another calling each other a "Faggot"?
The solution is not to stop using "****" but for women to reclaim its definition.

Not long ago (the 1990's); "*****" was considered offensive. Now, in many feminist circles, the term "*****" has come to be a term of empowerment.

[NorthStarRepublicML]

Not long ago (the 1990's); "*****" was considered offensive. Now, in many feminist circles, the term "*****" has come to be a term of empowerment.

ha!

listen to Imus much? i suppose he was just reclaiming "nappy headed hoes" for all the women of the world with hair of a certain texture?

Yeah its really helping womens empowerment when rappers call women "*****es" and "hoes" huh?

if only we could find a rapper who would rhyme with "****" then all our problems would be solved, i mean just look how well it worked with "nigger"

[counterblast]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 11:17 am

Not long ago (the 1990's); "*****" was considered offensive. Now, in many feminist circles, the term "*****" has come to be a term of empowerment.

ha!

listen to Imus much? i suppose he was just reclaiming "nappy headed hoes" for all the women of the world with hair of a certain texture?

Yeah its really helping womens empowerment when rappers call women "*****es" and "hoes" huh?

if only we could find a rapper who would rhyme with "****" then all our problems would be solved, i mean just look how well it worked with "nigger"
There is absolutely nothing offensive about the words "*****" or "ho".

A "*****" is a strong-willed/independent woman. A "ho" is a woman who makes a living from sex work.

Neither of those terms are offensive; and by making them out to be, it portrays strong-willed/independent women, and those in the sex industry in a demeaning manner.

As long as we allow "*****es" and "hoes" and "feminists" to be considered taboo; the sexist men in our society will continue using these words as a form of oppression. Only when we remove the taboo around these words (by reclaiming the meaning), can we ever hope to achieve sexual equality.

[Herman]

When I meet an idiot, I call him a ****. I do the same if the idiot is a female. It's not as if they're going to fall down and die.

Sure, it may be 'offensive' as you call it, but women aren't made out of crystal. They're not going to psychologically break if you call them a '****'. It's totally different with nigger. I'm not going to pretend that I don't use it just to be respectful to women. You treat women the same way as you treat men. With respect and dignity. Don't throw your shirt on the puddle so that they can walk over it, because if you do, you should do the same for men. The same applies with going through the door first.

I understand though if you feel insecure on how to behave with a woman on little details such as this when you proclaim yourself to be a socialist and equality between men and women. The best course of action is to ask a woman herself. What kind of behaviour should you have and so. Don't be embarassed in any way.

[counterblast]

Also, regarding the Imus controversy; it was an overreaction. And in the process of supposedly standing up for women's/African-American rights; it oppressed hoes and those with nappy hair.

It used traditional social values, and concepts of beauty to somehow make being a "ho" or having "nappy hair" out as a character flaw.

And while both are stereotypes; neither should have been taken negatively. Feminists and civil rights activists should have simply said "Yes, there are some prostitutes and nappy-haired individuals among us. And we find it offensive that you're using irrelevant occupational/physical traits to judge these athletes' performance."

[redflag32]

Its a great term if you actually want to degrade a woman who has done something terrible to you. Degrading people isnt so bad, sometimes its justified. So why frown onusing words that are perfect for this? I agree its all about conext,i wouldnt use that word very often,or when im generally speaking about women or their private parts,but when it is directed at someone who has doen soemthing bad to me i dont see the problem,its like her calling me a dick.

[An archist]

So, is calling someone a prick sexist too?

[Tower of Bebel]

There is a difference between: woman equals ****
I call this woman a ****

[praxis1966]

This debate's getting a little tiresome. We've discussed this word in particular ad nauseum in other threads. There was another one on language that should be banned from this board (a bit broader in scope since it delt with all forms of chauvanistic rhetoric) but I can't seem to find it at the moment. Anyway, this thread really should be merged with the one below.

Old Thread (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=65980&st=0)

[Leo]

Merged.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

It depends absolutely whether the word in question, in this case "****", is associated with women. Aside from arguably some isolated cases, **** is always associated with women. As are words like *****, slut, whore, etc. In a great majority of ways that these words are employed, the imagery of women who are promiscuous, bad, or otherwise degradable qualities is utilized in oder to degrade someone, which is clearly sexist in my view of things.

[Honggweilo]

a **** is genderless right? how is it more insulting, to either genders, then ass?

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 01:25 pm
Yes, women are extremely fragile and hearing any negative references to their anatomy that fails to affirm how beautiful and goddess-like they are will cause them to shrivel up into a ball of insecure pity. Remember, even the most mild embarrassment or ridicule can be fatal to girls, who, unlike boys who can take it, need constant affirmation.

Thank goodness we have big strong men like you to protect us from from hearing such bad, offensive, degrading words!

"****" is comparable to "towel head". Both words are lexically vulgarized qualities of women and Muslims respectively, which effectively degrade them for these inherent characteristics. The difference is that "****" is often used to describe anyone, not just women, which doesn't make it any less degrading to women. Quite the opposite, I think.

The problem obviously doesn't lie in saying offensive things about womens' bodies, but using that to insult women, or as a general insult in the case of "****"

It's not that women are more sensitive or that we're claiming that it's not acceptable to say bad things about peoples' anatomies.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 02:32 pm
a **** is genderless right? how is it more insulting, to either genders, then ass?
a **** is a vagina

[Honggweilo]

Originally posted by Dr. Rosenpenis+August 07, 2007 06:05 pm--> (Dr. Rosenpenis @ August 07, 2007 06:05 pm)
[email protected] 07, 2007 02:32 pm
a **** is genderless right? how is it more insulting, to either genders, then ass?
a **** is a vagina [/b]
lol i always thought it meant ass, like in the dutch word "kont" :lol:

[NorthStarRepublicML]

There is absolutely nothing offensive about the words "*****" or "ho".


maybe not to you .... i assume you are a white man ?...


A "*****" is a strong-willed/independent woman. A "ho" is a woman who makes a living from sex work.

fantasy land called they want you home for dinner by 6pm ...

anyone who spends any time in the real world knows that this is not how these identifications work ...

when fifty cent calls a woman a ***** or a hoe he is not championing the feminist cause, when a pimp slaps a woman, demands money, and calls her a hoe he is not carrying the torch for female liberation ....

[counterblast]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 06:35 pm

There is absolutely nothing offensive about the words "*****" or "ho".

maybe not to you .... i assume you are a white man ?...


No, I'm an Azerbaijanian-American woman. (Big surprise! Not everyone on RevLeft is a straight white man!)





A "*****" is a strong-willed/independent woman. A "ho" is a woman who makes a living from sex work.

fantasy land called they want you home for dinner by 6pm ...

anyone who spends any time in the real world knows that this is not how these identifications work ...

when fifty cent calls a woman a ***** or a hoe he is not championing the feminist cause, when a pimp slaps a woman, demands money, and calls her a hoe he is not carrying the torch for female liberation ....


I spend a good amount of time in the real world, and I've been called "*****", "dyke", "ho", and a myriad of similar things.

I didn't suggest 50 Cent was a pioneering feminist. Of course he uses those words in a demeaning way... but there is absolutely nothing demeaning about them.

When he calls women "*****es"; he's being a sexist... Not because the word ***** is actually offensive, but because he projects it to be. By me condoning censorship of "*****"; I am affirming that being a "*****" is something to be ashamed of.

A better way to combat 50 Cent's sexism; would be to vehemently demand he stop demeaning sluts, *****es, and hoes.

And perhaps the word "pimp" (a profession that exploits working women for their earnings) is the one you should be censoring, then. The ho has done nothing wrong; why must her title be subjugated to censorship?

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

I am completely positive you are in the small minority of people who see a neutral connotation in the word "*****", or much less, a positive one!
***** is an insult. That's a fact.
If you think it's good to be a strong-willed woman, then you're precisely the kind of person who should object to the use of "*****", a word that explicitly refers to women like you in an extremely degrading way.

To most people, "pimp" does have a negative connotation. With the exception of mainstream hip-hop and blaxploitation culture and people who reproduce their messages, pimping isn't in any way glorified. Believe it or not, most people don't agree with the things sung by the most popular artists. I agree that it's abhorrent to use "pimp" as a compliment or positive attribute.

[hajduk]

i will give you some svears from english to bosnian language

ENGLISH BOSNIAN
**** pizda
dick kurac
pussy pička
shit govno
jerk drkadžija
jerk off izdrkati
fuck you jebi se
up yours nabijem te

i will fuck jebaću ti
your mother mamu
in half of her u po
pussy pičke

i will fuck jebaću ti
your kid dijete
in a half u po
of his njegovih
back leđa


if you whant more just tell :D

[counterblast]

Originally posted by Dr. [email protected] 08, 2007 09:10 pm
I am completely positive you are in the small minority of people who see a neutral connotation in the word "*****", or much less, a positive one!

Of course, I don't speak on behalf of the majority of women. But, naturally most women wouldn't openly label themselves feminist, either...


If you think it's good to be a strong-willed woman, then you're precisely the kind of person who should object to the use of "*****", a word that explicitly refers to women like you in an extremely degrading way.


I object to the misuse of the word *****; not of the word itself. I think the fact that attributes such as strong will, aggressiveness, and determination are so looked down upon in women (even to the point that we ourselves are offended to be labelled such), exemplifies the role gender traditions play in our lives. "*****" only masks the underlying problem; that "masculinity" and "femininity" are inherently oppressive concepts; and leave those who do not conform to their rules the subject of ridicule.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Regardless of how you choose to behave, "*****" is an insult. The most neutral and accurate way to denote what you want to exalt is "independent woman", not "*****". To use in negative contexts is not a misuse. It was originally applied to women for the express purpose of oppression, not description.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I imagine if it hurts me, a bisexual mexican-american man, to be called a *****. I can only wonder how it feels for womyn. But on another note I'm born on international womyn's day March 8th.

My heart goes out to any female who's been called a *****. (unless it hilary clinton) otherwise she is my comrade

[Marion]

Originally posted by Dr. [email protected] 06, 2007 09:42 pm
It depends absolutely whether the word in question, in this case "****", is associated with women. Aside from arguably some isolated cases, **** is always associated with women.
Perhaps where you live, but not around my area. I've heard it used of plenty of men and even as a vague term of affection/matey-ness on the odd occasion (e.g. "Alright, you ****?") although I'm sure the latter is pretty rare. It's generally used pretty much as various words for male genitalia would be. Clearly its all dependent on context in the same way as its one thing a black person to call their mates' "niggers" and an entirely different thing for Rush Limbaugh or Nick Griffin to use it.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Originally posted by Marion+August 12, 2007 08:03 pm--> (Marion @ August 12, 2007 08:03 pm)
Dr. [email protected] 06, 2007 09:42 pm
It depends absolutely whether the word in question, in this case "****", is associated with women. Aside from arguably some isolated cases, **** is always associated with women.
Perhaps where you live, but not around my area. I've heard it used of plenty of men and even as a vague term of affection/matey-ness on the odd occasion (e.g. "Alright, you ****?") although I'm sure the latter is pretty rare. It's generally used pretty much as various words for male genitalia would be. Clearly its all dependent on context in the same way as its one thing a black person to call their mates' "niggers" and an entirely different thing for Rush Limbaugh or Nick Griffin to use it. [/b]
so it would be like if I called someone a fag it'd be okay, right? since I'm bisexual.
or if I used an anti-mexican slur would it still be anti-mexican? :unsure:

[Comrade J]

Wow, the usage of the word '****' - such a vitally important issue for the left.

Get your boots on folks, with progress like this, a revolution is imminent!

[chimx]

Regardless of how you choose to behave, "*****" is an insult.

http://www.harrywalker.com/photos/Gore_Tipper.jpg

Listen Tipper Gore, maybe things are different where you live, but I can insult my coworkers and friends without their feelings gettin' hurt, and vice versa. You spend so much time making sure not to hurt anyones feelings and you take the fun out of life. I could give a fuck personally. If it hurts someone's feelings I won't say it to 'em if I respect that person enough to care. Otherwise I'll call asshole's "****s" or "*****es" until the cows come home, because I don't live in Care Bear land, and rainbows don't shoot out of my fucking stomach.

[Marion]

Originally posted by petey+August 13, 2007 01:50 am--> (petey @ August 13, 2007 01:50 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 08:03 pm

Dr. [email protected] 06, 2007 09:42 pm
It depends absolutely whether the word in question, in this case "****", is associated with women. Aside from arguably some isolated cases, **** is always associated with women.
Perhaps where you live, but not around my area. I've heard it used of plenty of men and even as a vague term of affection/matey-ness on the odd occasion (e.g. "Alright, you ****?") although I'm sure the latter is pretty rare. It's generally used pretty much as various words for male genitalia would be. Clearly its all dependent on context in the same way as its one thing a black person to call their mates' "niggers" and an entirely different thing for Rush Limbaugh or Nick Griffin to use it.
so it would be like if I called someone a fag it'd be okay, right? since I'm bisexual.
or if I used an anti-mexican slur would it still be anti-mexican? :unsure:[/b]
Well, as I said, in certain contexts, yeah. Occasionally gay people do call each other "fags" or suchlike and its not intended as an insult at all. The same as it's different a good friend jokingly referring to another gay person as a "fucking queer" and some right-wing skinhead shouting it at someone.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 02:51 am

Regardless of how you choose to behave, "*****" is an insult.

http://www.harrywalker.com/photos/Gore_Tipper.jpg

Listen Tipper Gore, maybe things are different where you live, but I can insult my coworkers and friends without their feelings gettin' hurt, and vice versa. You spend so much time making sure not to hurt anyones feelings and you take the fun out of life. I could give a fuck personally. If it hurts someone's feelings I won't say it to 'em if I respect that person enough to care. Otherwise I'll call asshole's "****s" or "*****es" until the cows come home, because I don't live in Care Bear land, and rainbows don't shoot out of my fucking stomach.
This isn't about "hurting feelings", it's about degrading women.
I'm not going to explain this again because I've already done it at least twice in this thread.

Your colloquially witty discourse is very off-putting in a Dennis Miller kind of way.

[RGacky3]

Why does it matter, if you want to insult someone, use whatever you have at hand, thats it, using the word **** does'nt mean your sexist, it probably means your very angry at a woman :P.

[TC]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 09:51 pm
I imagine if it hurts me, a bisexual mexican-american man, to be called a *****. I can only wonder how it feels for womyn. But on another note I'm born on international womyn's day March 8th.

My heart goes out to any female who's been called a *****. (unless it hilary clinton) otherwise she is my comrade
This is one of the most patronizing comments i've ever read here.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

I was kind of looking forward to TC's replies to my posts in this thread. These are not staunch convictions and I am prepared to change them if you can convince me.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Originally posted by TragicClown+August 14, 2007 02:04 pm--> (TragicClown @ August 14, 2007 02:04 pm)
[email protected] 10, 2007 09:51 pm
I imagine if it hurts me, a bisexual mexican-american man, to be called a *****. I can only wonder how it feels for womyn. But on another note I'm born on international womyn's day March 8th.

My heart goes out to any female who's been called a *****. (unless it hilary clinton) otherwise she is my comrade
This is one of the most patronizing comments i've ever read here. [/b]
what the hell is that suposed to mean? what is so patronizing about what I said? what the fuck do you take me for? a weak liberal? an anarchist? I am not the first nor the latter. viva villa.
chicano power.

[Comrade Rage]

Originally posted by petey+August 14, 2007 11:02 pm--> (petey @ August 14, 2007 11:02 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 02:04 pm

[email protected] 10, 2007 09:51 pm
I imagine if it hurts me, a bisexual mexican-american man, to be called a *****. I can only wonder how it feels for womyn. But on another note I'm born on international womyn's day March 8th.

My heart goes out to any female who's been called a *****. (unless it hilary clinton) otherwise she is my comrade
This is one of the most patronizing comments i've ever read here.
what the hell is that suposed to mean? what is so patronizing about what I said? what the fuck do you take me for? a weak liberal? an anarchist? I am not the first nor the latter. viva villa.
chicano power. [/b]
I'm beginning to think he's running from you, man. Seriously-if anyone thinks that was patronizing I don't understand what they are thinking my comrade said here. :rolleyes:

By the way-FUCK HILLARY! :lol:

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by COMRADE CRUM+August 15, 2007 08:13 pm--> (COMRADE CRUM @ August 15, 2007 08:13 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 11:02 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 02:04 pm

[email protected] 10, 2007 09:51 pm
I imagine if it hurts me, a bisexual mexican-american man, to be called a *****. I can only wonder how it feels for womyn. But on another note I'm born on international womyn's day March 8th.

My heart goes out to any female who's been called a *****. (unless it hilary clinton) otherwise she is my comrade
This is one of the most patronizing comments i've ever read here.
what the hell is that suposed to mean? what is so patronizing about what I said? what the fuck do you take me for? a weak liberal? an anarchist? I am not the first nor the latter. viva villa.
chicano power.
I'm beginning to think he's running from you, man. Seriously-if anyone thinks that was patronizing I don't understand what they are thinking my comrade said here. :rolleyes: [/b]
Wait, you can't see what is patronising about a bloke presuming the feelings of women and basically attempting to co-opt their oppression?

I guess you can't see what is inherently insane about trying to make some kind of thoughtcrime out of the use of words like ***** and **** either, right? :lol:

[Comrade Rage]

Originally posted by Jazzratt+August 15, 2007 06:03 pm--> (Jazzratt @ August 15, 2007 06:03 pm)
Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 15, 2007 08:13 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 11:02 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 02:04 pm

[email protected] 10, 2007 09:51 pm
I imagine if it hurts me, a bisexual mexican-american man, to be called a *****. I can only wonder how it feels for womyn. But on another note I'm born on international womyn's day March 8th.

My heart goes out to any female who's been called a *****. (unless it hilary clinton) otherwise she is my comrade
This is one of the most patronizing comments i've ever read here.
what the hell is that suposed to mean? what is so patronizing about what I said? what the fuck do you take me for? a weak liberal? an anarchist? I am not the first nor the latter. viva villa.
chicano power.
I'm beginning to think he's running from you, man. Seriously-if anyone thinks that was patronizing I don't understand what they are thinking my comrade said here. :rolleyes:
Wait, you can't see what is patronising about a bloke presuming the feelings of women and basically attempting to co-opt their oppression?

I guess you can't see what is inherently insane about trying to make some kind of thoughtcrime out of the use of words like ***** and **** either, right? :lol: [/b]
I don't think words like **** or ***** should become a thoughtcrime at all.

And please, oh forgive me, for daring to assume that women dislike being called *****es and hoes and ****s and whores and whatever. :rolleyes:

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

first of all I AM AGAINST THE USE OF THOSE WORDS!!!

I never claimed to know how womyn feel about that word.

If you don't act like pig-headed biggot and actually look at what I'm say not what my gender is, you'll see I presumed nothing.


I can only wonder how it feels for womyn.


AND I KNOW ABOUT BIGGOTRY, MEXICANS GET A LOT OF SHIT HERE IN THE USA. I KNOW BECAUSE I AM MYSELF MEXICAN AMERICAN. I'M ALL FOR WOMYN'S RIGHTS, BUT I HATE IT WHEN WOMYN THINK THEY ARE THE ONLY OPPRESSED GROUP OF PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY.

CHICANO POWER!!!

P.S. LET SEE HOW YOU LIKE IT WHEN IMMIGRATION LAWS TEAR YOU FROM YOUR FAMILY LIKE THEY DID BETWEEN MY COUSIN AND I.

[TC]

Originally posted by Dr. Rosenpenis+--> (Dr. Rosenpenis)I was kind of looking forward to TC's replies to my posts in this thread. These are not staunch convictions and I am prepared to change them if you can convince me.[/b]

Okay, since you asked i'll go back and reply to them.


Originally posted by Dr.Rosenpenis+--> (Dr.Rosenpenis)
"****" is comparable to "towel head". Both words are lexically vulgarized qualities of women and Muslims respectively, which effectively degrade them for these inherent characteristics. The difference is that "****" is often used to describe anyone, not just women, which doesn't make it any less degrading to women. Quite the opposite, I think.[/b]

Thats just not accurate though. The term "****" doesn't refer to women, it refers to assholeness with greater vulgarity than "asshole", and unlike asshole but like dick it is a gendered term meaning the same (although, i'd argue in practice its less gendered than "*****").

There is a huge difference between a gendered noun and a noun that refers to a gender and you're conflating the two. The word "actress" is gendered, but it doesn't mean "woman", it rather means "person who act's" when used of females who fit that description, not all women.

Likewise "*****" doesn't refer to women in general it refers to "a mean or domineering person" who is female... Curiously, "bastard", in usage, appears to be gendered male, (its very rarely applied to women) even though the word in its original meaning applies equally to men and women.


To use an example, girls very frequently call other women who they dislike "*****" because the insult is not an insult to their gender its an insult to their personality or behavior; it doesn't occur to them that they could be making a sexist remark because "*****" doesn't mean women. Likewise some exceedingly vulgar British women use "****" the same way.


If there is any word that occupies the same relation to "woman" as "towel head" does to muslims, "nigger" does to black people and "faggot" does to gays, its neither "****" nor "*****" but "ho." ("ho" might be derived from the word "whore" but it doesn't appear to be used to mean "whore" but more generally socially subordinate women)



The problem obviously doesn't lie in saying offensive things about womens' bodies, but using that to insult women, or as a general insult in the case of "****"


But again, the insult isn't to women in general but to individuals of either gender.



It's not that women are more sensitive or that we're claiming that it's not acceptable to say bad things about peoples' anatomies.



Thats exactly what some people are claiming. Did you read what Petey wrote?


Originally posted by NorthStarRepublicML
i assume you are a white man ?...

Haha, how obnoxious.


Originally posted by Dr.Rosenpenis
I am completely positive you are in the small minority of people who see a neutral connotation in the word "*****", or much less, a positive one!


Not really, the word lost the ability to shock decades ago and its quite common to assert that the behavior seen as '*****y' in women is merely seen as 'assertive' in men so this is a positive attribute.

There is for instance a well known feminist culture magazine called *****:
http://www.*****magazine.org/


Originally posted by Dr.Rosenpenis
***** is an insult. That's a fact.

Of course its an insult, but that doesn't mean its an inherently sexist insult in most contexts. (though it could be used in a sexist way in some contexts, its not in the category of words that are inherently bigoted and there clearly are some)


[email protected]

If you think it's good to be a strong-willed woman, then you're precisely the kind of person who should object to the use of "*****", a word that explicitly refers to women like you in an extremely degrading way.


You shouldn't conflate the concepts of insult and degradation, these are not the same thing.

If anything, i think ***** is insulting but not degrading as its often used of high status women in partial recognition of their status...whereas a more serious argument could be made for "slut" as degrading since it tends to refer to someone as being compromized.


Dr.Rosenpenis
. It was originally applied to women for the express purpose of oppression, not description.

No it was applied to individual mean people who happen to be women for the purpose of insulting them, not oppressing women in general. You are again making category errors; the fact that the person being refered to is female doesn't mean that it refers to all women at the same instance.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

If there is any word that occupies the same relation to "woman" as "towel head" does to muslims, "nigger" does to black people and "faggot" does to gays, its neither "****" nor "*****" but "ho." ("ho" might be derived from the word "whore" but it doesn't appear to be used to mean "whore" but more generally socially subordinate women)

You forgot to mention how oppressive the word wetback is to mexicans
this omition offends me.

[Comrade Rage]

What about Kraut or Jerry for Germans? :angry:

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 12:17 am

If there is any word that occupies the same relation to "woman" as "towel head" does to muslims, "nigger" does to black people and "faggot" does to gays, its neither "****" nor "*****" but "ho." ("ho" might be derived from the word "whore" but it doesn't appear to be used to mean "whore" but more generally socially subordinate women)

You forgot to mention how oppressive the word wetback is to mexicans
this omition offends me.
She omitted quite a few words and the people they affect for example she also failed to mention how offensive "kike" is to jews or how offensive "chink" is to east asians.

Don't nitpick the post, reply to it properly.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Originally posted by Jazzratt+August 16, 2007 10:58 am--> (Jazzratt @ August 16, 2007 10:58 am)
[email protected] 16, 2007 12:17 am

If there is any word that occupies the same relation to "woman" as "towel head" does to muslims, "nigger" does to black people and "faggot" does to gays, its neither "****" nor "*****" but "ho." ("ho" might be derived from the word "whore" but it doesn't appear to be used to mean "whore" but more generally socially subordinate women)

You forgot to mention how oppressive the word wetback is to mexicans
this omition offends me.
She omitted quite a few words and the people they affect for example she also failed to mention how offensive "kike" is to jews or how offensive "chink" is to east asians.

Don't nitpick the post, reply to it properly. [/b]
I agree with you on this one, jazzrat. but I picked the mexican example because I'm mexican. it effects me personaly therefore it is in my intrest to stand up for my self before I stand up against other people. once I take care of my own people then I can stand up for other peoples of the world. because not only am I perfect I'm mexican to boot. I believe that I need to prioritize what I do on the basis of my race, my sexualityand so on. one must take care of myself before helping others, such as I was taught at boarding school.

[counterblast]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 13, 2007 05:36 am
Wow, the usage of the word '****' - such a vitally important issue for the left.

Get your boots on folks, with progress like this, a revolution is imminent!
Of course one could rebuke;

"With so many radical-minded individuals wasting time on counter-revolutionary internet forums, the whole concept of a revolution occuring is a joke."

But I guess I'll leave the faux-productive routine to you, and just admit I'm unproductively discussing/arguing like everyone else on RevLeft..