history class and textbook

[Red Scare]

the history textbooks that they have been making us read (i am in high school) disgust me. they only talk about how bad communism is, the negatives, even though the positives outweigh the negatives, they are also very sexist, and portray america as beacon of freedom to the world. how am i supposed to get my fellow students not to believe this load of bullshit? if i try to have any communist/socialist meetings after school i will most definitely get suspended. anybody got any ideas?

[Pawn Power]

Yeah, standard history books are ridiculous. Zinn's A People's History should really be pushed to be used in high schools.

I don't know how they could suspend you for having after school meetings, perhaps they just wouldn't allow you to have them...did you even try?

If your particularly disgruntled about the history ya'll are being force feed maybe you could have after school meetings discussing history ignored in class. You could look at workers movements that were heavily influnced and organized by socialist and communist organizations in the early 20th century. Perhaps that could lead to further discussion of socialism etc... A school would be less likely to hinder a history group and once you found some other students that are interested you can organize a more openly radical group. With numbers it will be more difficult for a school to repress you. Power in organized numbers!

[Pawn Power]

I don't know why I thought you lived in the US. If not, the point still stands though you would have to use other resources instead of A People's History.

[midnight marauder]

learn about real history and when your book says something glaryingly wrong, debate it with your teacher & tell it to your other classmates.

i think that's the only way i managed to last three years in high school history classes.

i'm sure there are dozens of people who feel the same way as you do...for those in the united states (or if you just want to learn about US history), go grab a copy of howard zinn's a people's history of the americas and also lies my teacher told me: everything your history textbook got wrong by james loewen, the latter of which, in addition to going in depth on historical events misrepresented, ignored, or falsifed by US history books, also provides a good analysis with studies and statistics about the history books we use and why.

good luck.

[Red Scare]

yeah I go to catholic school so anything remotely liberal is prohibited, teachers who are liberals have to keep quiet about it

[Red Scare]

yeah, I try to keep away from the mainstream by reading alternative sources for history and news, but I am not sure how to convince my friends to believe as I do. they just make fun of me for being a "commie". they are liberals but not like I am....

[Faux Real]

Ahh Catholic school. Elementary was so fun! :lol:

Well I didn't go to a Catholic H.S, but this is what I'd recommend. You should try to hand out flyers or simple pages of the real aspects of communism/anarchism/etc. Also, include a reading list for them, or even suggest visiting revleft!

Disgusting how [most]schools are brainwash camps these days.

[Organic Revolution]

I say still try for an after-school org. although most people wont go. shit, I started an after-school org. that I didn't go to.

Just be very, very vocal in class, and put your ideas and the truth out there, but make sure to come to class with intellectual ammunition to back up everything.

[The-Spark]

didnt jesus say that community of goods is good? wasnt that in the bible? i dunno.

[Red Scare]

i think that jesus was one of the first anarchist-communists actually but the church is too stuck up to realize that

[which doctor]

Originally posted by The-[email protected] 02, 2007 11:06 am
didnt jesus say that community of goods is good? wasnt that in the bible? i dunno.
Jesus didn't say anything, as he didn't exist.

As for the bible, it says a lot of things too, much of which is contradictory.

[Labor Shall Rule]

Though I would agree with your disgust torwards our text books and educational system, I would say some teachers are more tolerant than others.

I had a teacher last year that allowed me to discuss Marxism in front of the class. I came in, and he told me that I had the entire hour to talk about it, and we sat down and he allowed to basically craft the entire lesson plan; tests, and the notes that I would scripple on the board. I wrote down The Communist Manifesto and Capital on the board, discussed their historical importance and wrote down specific quotes from them. I remember I talked how wage-labor is exploited by capital, and I did this by asking if anybody had a job, and I was able to relate to them. I also got into a debate torwards the end of the class, and was able to clear up any misconceptions by refuting such questions such as "do you really think that janitors should receive as much as doctors", and "human nature in the Soviet Union and China proves it wrong".

[The-Spark]

I like to go with the whole middle finger if you dont like it theory.

[Janus]

if i try to have any communist/socialist meetings after school i will most definitely get suspended.
Then do it outside of school while speaking out in your class.


i think that jesus was one of the first anarchist-communists actually
:blink:
Jesus a communist? (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=55371&hl=+Jesus++communis*)
Jesus a communist? (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=24182&hl=+Jesus++communis*)

[The-Spark]

Tell your priest/teacher or w.e (sry i dont go to catholic schools so i dunno) that jesus was a communist and see what he does :), if you have proof that jesus was a communist they have to be communist or their not following jesus

[Herman]

I had a teacher last year that allowed me to discuss Marxism in front of the class. I came in, and he told me that I had the entire hour to talk about it, and we sat down and he allowed to basically craft the entire lesson plan; tests, and the notes that I would scripple on the board. I wrote down The Communist Manifesto and Capital on the board, discussed their historical importance and wrote down specific quotes from them. I remember I talked how wage-labor is exploited by capital, and I did this by asking if anybody had a job, and I was able to relate to them. I also got into a debate torwards the end of the class, and was able to clear up any misconceptions by refuting such questions such as "do you really think that janitors should receive as much as doctors", and "human nature in the Soviet Union and China proves it wrong".

I actually would like to know what you told them in reply to those remarks.

[Morag]

One option, when you come across something you know is wrong, is to say: "Well, I read in this book/saw in this programme, that this or that actually happened," or "Don't these statistics from this source say otherwise?' So long as you can back up what your saying with sources you can get away with anything in a history class. Remember, history isn't the study of what's happened before us, it's the study of other people's opinions of what's happened. A historians opinion is called an argument for a reason.

[Tower of Bebel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2007 05:56 pm
the history textbooks that they have been making us read (i am in high school) disgust me. they only talk about how bad communism is, the negatives, even though the positives outweigh the negatives, they are also very sexist, and portray america as beacon of freedom to the world. how am i supposed to get my fellow students not to believe this load of bullshit? if i try to have any communist/socialist meetings after school i will most definitely get suspended. anybody got any ideas?
Socrates' dialectics ;) . Ask your fellow students questions and you will see that this nationalist book will not provide the answer for them. You have more knowledge than they have! Use it! Also try to counterattack by asking your teacher or professor some difficlut but logical question that the book cannot answer. Or make logical remarks.


i think that jesus was one of the first anarchist-communists actually but the church is too stuck up to realize that

Jesus. A subject of dispute. There is a differecne between the biblical Jesus and the historical Jesus.

The biblical is almost totally a made up story by Peter and his followers after the death of Jesus.

Peter wanted to break away from the Jewish law and saw in Jesus the right person to do so. That's way he wrote so many letters (and some are in the bible) to mostly jews throughout the Roman empire to convince them. Jesus was a regular profit like there were soooo many in Israel. Some were heard, like Jesaja, some not, like Jesus. Peter wanted to use Jesus' speeches for his own purpose. Jesus was lucky that he, as a marginal profit, became famous after his horrible death. And that because of Peter.

[Labor Shall Rule]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 11:34 am

I had a teacher last year that allowed me to discuss Marxism in front of the class. I came in, and he told me that I had the entire hour to talk about it, and we sat down and he allowed to basically craft the entire lesson plan; tests, and the notes that I would scripple on the board. I wrote down The Communist Manifesto and Capital on the board, discussed their historical importance and wrote down specific quotes from them. I remember I talked how wage-labor is exploited by capital, and I did this by asking if anybody had a job, and I was able to relate to them. I also got into a debate torwards the end of the class, and was able to clear up any misconceptions by refuting such questions such as "do you really think that janitors should receive as much as doctors", and "human nature in the Soviet Union and China proves it wrong".

I actually would like to know what you told them in reply to those remarks.
They are both complex questions, and I was limited, but I did not stumble in answering them.

I went into how Marx actually dismissed the concept of equal wages as a utopian; sourcing Value, Price and Profit along with the Critique of the Gotha Program, and went on to discuss how the amount of socially necessary labour time put into an individual would be the deciding factor on how much that individual makes. So if, in the future, it takes more labour time to make a bin man than a doctor, the bin man will be paid more. I went further on to say that, as the productive forces advanced, or as I put it to them, "as society is developed further economically while basic wants and needs are met to everyone", wages will naturally become less and less important, bringing about their eventual disappearance from the pages of history.

The Soviet Union and China were far more in-depth and harder to argue. My teacher already made the point that "socialism, according to Marx, would only work in an industrialized country", so I made the point that these were agrarian, backward economies that were based almost entirely on small-scale production with no industrial superstructure, with a very small, marginalized working class. I went on to say that the Russian Revolution was defeated due to these conditions; they were materially unable to reach socialism, relating back to my statement in the last question on how the basic wants and needs weren't even at their possession due to the lack of industry, and that they were dependent on the success of the revolution in Europe, which never happened because it was defeated. As so, I made it clear that their reliance to the bureaucracy which was necessitated because of their position lead to their defeat. I was unable to get into China, due to a lack of time, so I deducted it to how Mao was a Stalinist lackey, and that he was not even a 'communist' at all. I had everything written down and prepared, so it was easy to answer the questions, but I had a lack of time and a committed audience.

[Chicano Shamrock]

Communisms benefits outweigh it's problems? Well I don't think that is true when you are talking about the sort of Communism in textbooks. As for the history they teach, you are right it is pure shit. In college, depending on your professors, you will get a much better version of history.

A few years ago in college I had a great history teacher who lived all over the place from Mexico to Canada to Chile, Switzerland... etc. We learned about how Abe Lincoln didn't care about the slaves, how the Europeans called the natives savages while the Europeans were the actual savages. About how history is almost purely bullshit altogether as the victors re-write history. It was a very good class. This shit is common knowledge to anyone who doesn't buy the nations line but to have a teacher actually tell it like it is was very refreshing.

[Yardstick]

I was never shy to point out the problems with the text books in class. I've even been known to turn entire lesson times into debates with the teacher and/or fellow students. In fact my non-western history teacher had me come back after I graduated to speak about communism while they were on the chinese unit. :)

It was a great and succesful chance to convince some fellow students that capitalism sucks.

[Chocobo]

Most definitly agree with the peoples who said to learn your stuff, and then debate. Even if you are going to a school with punishments and severe censorship, a debate based on actual fact should prove valid, as long as you yourself keep from going too biased (As I had made a mistake quite a lot of times).

Personally, what I did was that I looked ahead of the lessons (For me, school is easy to keep up with, primarilly history, so looking ahead was never a problem) and if you didn't know what was coming up but questioned it (Which you should do with all things in the U.S. History books) then take some time for after-school research and prepare yourself. The best thing you can do is instantly sprout your (valid) arguments from the beginning of the chapter and gain a respectable angle and valid opinion. From this you would be at least semi-admired and perhaps more able to speak out at propaganda handouts, essays, and test/quiz's.

What I did a lot was really, really keep tabs on what was going on. Including the handouts. When I was censored (Such as "Shut up, we don't have time for your lectures today!) I would go and talk to the VP's and Principals and demand to know blah-blah and for them to talk to my teacher and politly ask if we could have time to discuss a certain thing that was incorrect. Of course, they can't change the books, but they did talk to them (Even if negative about me) and I was nearly constantly recognized and able to speak throughout the year. I also established a "5 minute discussion session) on wednesdays, where at the end of class we would discuss what was going on and what not with the chapter (Though all I did was debate with the teacher while everyone else just either listened, slept, or IPOD'ed).

Just decided to give (ramble) some of my personal actions. Maybe you could build off it, dunno.

Goodluck!

[Cybercide]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 02:14 am
I was never shy to point out the problems with the text books in class. I've even been known to turn entire lesson times into debates with the teacher and/or fellow students. In fact my non-western history teacher had me come back after I graduated to speak about communism while they were on the chinese unit. :)

It was a great and succesful chance to convince some fellow students that capitalism sucks.
very good!


I tried this and they just kicked me out of history class.

[Yardstick]

Well, I was never kicked out but in many classes I was ordered to sit down and shut up like a good little boy, by both teachers and more often by students :/