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Dimentio
1st August 2007, 02:01
Here is an article on Energy Accounting (http://en.technocracynet.eu/index.php?option=com_jd-wp&Itemid=93&p=7).


"A short summary of the article and it’s intentions

The subject of this article is energy accounting, and it’s intentions are to offer a comprehensive description of the economic distribution system in the technate, it’s differences from the price system, and the different aspects of the system. Due to a lack of litterature covering the basic parts of technocracy, there was and still is a profound need for articles further investigating energy accounting as well as other aspects of technocratic design.

Scarcity and Abundance

Before we start investigating energy accounting, we must understand it’s premises. The foundation of mainstream economics is five postulates, based around a theory that all resources are finite, or “scarce”, while human will to consume is infinite. This theory is largely unsubstantiated, but without it, it would have been impossible for economists to calculate.
Technocrats, on the other hand, recognises that while it indeed is a profound fact that scarcity could exist and that a price system under such conditions is one type of solution to that problem, there do exist situations where abundance could arise. Of course, our premise is different than that of economists.
Instead of assuming that human want is infinite (one could very well still do it), and thus make scarcity an inevitability, we stress the fact that the human ability to consume is limited to the conditions of her body. Human wants might be infinite, but the human ability to fulfil these wants is very finite. We are not proposing a counter-postulate of “inevitable abundance”, but rather putting forward a more in-depth analysis of scarcity and abundance.
Abundance do arise when an infrastructural system is able to meet the human capacity of consumption while human labor input in the consumption-generating sectors (agriculture, industrial production and so forth) are diminishing. This process is a result of technological progress. The problems with abundance is twofold. Firstly, it makes it harder to calculate prices, and secondly, it leads (under a total free market economy with minimal interventionism) to prices which are diminished to the point where the producers cannot simply uphold their production.
The price system
or
“Exchange Accounting”
The price system could also be called “exchange accounting”, since all systems involving “exchange” of goods and services, from primitive barter systems and gift economics, to the advanced globalised economy which we have today, are based upon prices which are adjusted according to supply and demand.
If we assume two Egyptian subjects 4.000 years ago, we could construct a hypothetical price system not involving monetary exchange units. We say that the first of the peasants, A, desires a good, x, which the other peasant, B, is in possession of. A, in her turn, is in possession of an unspecified number of good y, which B is desiring.
In this hypothesis, the price will be in correlation of the point where each of the persons involved in the exchange finds it suitable to trade. We assume that both wants the good which the other one possess, and that they will exchange to the point where each of them are satisfied. The exchange do not need to be equal, since the deal would be subject to the individual demand of each person involved in the exchange.
More recently, money was started to being used, because it simplified exchange and made it more socially secure to trade, due to the fact that money A) is not a good of sustenance, and B) is permanent in nature. The value represented by money is of course also dependent on it’s relative scarcity in relation to the amount of persons involved in the given market.

The problems with exchange accounting are many. Now we should not discuss barter, since it by all definitions would be impossible to uphold a modern technological system with advanced factories and an advanced, integrated infrastructure through barter. Instead, we should focus on the problems with monetary exchange.

Money is possible to accumulate. That is a function of it’s role as a good which is not used for anything else than exchange. Of course, this is not wholly a problem since it allows capital investments and economic growth, making technological progress a possibility. In the same time, it is encouraging inequalities which have created income disparities where four firths of a given national population in a first-world country has access to 20% of the national resources, while the fifth left would have access to 80% of the resources.
That represents an inefficiency, because the ability to consume is twarted by the bottlenecks known as the specific privilegies in access of the means of production granted to the social groups with most accumulated capital.

Moreover, exchange accounting requires everyone to participate in a process of production, whether as investor or as employee. Under a process of automatisation, a lot of works are disappearing. Historically speaking, new works have often been created. Industry supplemented agriculture when the efficiency of agriculture led to lower employment in that area, and the service sector is today supplementing industry in most developed nations, something which the original technocrats failed to predict. But as automatisation increase, job creation in the future under the price system would take more and more interventionist measures as well as intentional creation of market failures to bolster jobs, including subventions of small companies.

The greatest problem with the modern price system of exchange accounting is that it is based on eternal exponential growth, in order to secure the well-being of the citizens. Hence, environmental foot-prints and over-exploitment of natural habitats become a serious problem which eventually could devastate a lot of the planet’s ecosystems. First when something is made artificially scarce by the use of property rights, or in-real scarce because of exploitment, the price system could react and make it valuable.

One could of course try to impose regulations of the price systems, but problems are seldom solved at the top but rather on the bottom. Moreover, regulations are most often imposed to “solve market imperfections” which means that the state, with subsidies and taxes, are working to make the fruits of the production more scarce that it is. That could hold together the price system, but at the cost of a lower standard of life and more inefficiency than needed.

We technocrats propose an alternative to “exchange accounting”, namely “energy accounting”. So let us look up what energy accounting is.
Energy Accounting
or
“The Distribution System”

To have general energy accounting imposed upon a given economy, three characteristics must be fulfilled. There must be enough resource diversity to support a self-sustaining system without the need for exchanging goods and services with the rest of the world, this system must be technologically developed so it can utilise it’s resources more efficiently than any existing system outside of it, and it would need to have at it’s disposable personnel properly educated in managing the system. Without these three preconditions fulfilled, a technate could not be established. Of course, energy accounting would, in a partial, primitive version be existent in a proto-technate (an expanding network of eco-units run by technocratic principles).

Energy accounting is not based upon the buying or selling of goods and services on a free market. Instead, it is based on interaction between the production system in it’s whole, and the individual consumer. It is not based upon the exchange of property either, since the resources at hand for each individual would not change with transfers of the energy units to the technate.

First, according to the traditional technocratic design, every individual is granted an equal share of access to the production capacity of the technate. This division of access is made according to a very simple equation. The entire production capacity of the technate during a given period (which must be determinable in length), is divided according to the number of users the technate have. Thus, no individual and no groups of individuals would “own” the means of production in themselves, but the fruits of the production capacity would be under usership of the individuals who are users of the technate. These usership rights could neither be sold, bought or compromised except for in cases of emigration.

The usership rights are not correspond to “real resources” but rather to the production of consumer items and services. Hence, cars, computers and other machinery is accounted for as parts of the technate. The cost of using them is corresponding to the electricity in usage.

The usership right is a part of the social contract which is the technate. It is physically manifested through an energy certifikate. The available capacity is divided into energy units, which could also be called energy credits although it might be misleading. Why? Because the units, since they most correspond to the available consumption capacity in the technate during a given time period (minus of course usage during said period), would not be possible to save over that period. Instead, the certifikate will be reloaded with a new share more corresponding to the new total production capacity of the technate.

Energy units could neither be transferred between individuals.

When an individual is using her energy certifikate, the energy units correspondent to the energy cost in production are derived from her certifikate for the remainder of the time period. Yet, after usage, the energy units cease to exist. They are only in function so that the technate should be able to track demand and adapt the production after the desires of the users. It is thus neither a planned economy or a market economy, but an interactive economy. The is the sovereign over her income.
How does energy accounting affect
the socio-economic situation of the individual?
Since the technate is’nt a price system and is self-sustaining, it does not have any profit incentives, or any incentives to tax it’s users. Neither any affiliated democratic bodies, whether in the form of traditional nation-states which are members of the technate, or autonomous direct-democratic communes would have any incentives or opportunities to tax the individual.

In first-world nations, that would represent an increase of real disposable income with 25-50%.

There would be no more debts, since costs are determined for usage and not for the acquirance of property. Hence, young people and couples would never need to be compelled to feel fear for the future because of debts over education and housing.

The technate, being self-sustainable and in abundance, would provide everyone of it’s users with free healthcare, education, elderly-care and travelling.

Last but not least, since the technate would have full overview over it’s resource usage and always manages to adapt production after consumption, it could also compensate the environment a lot better. With higher energy efficiency and better usage of resources, people could always be certain that efficiency increases in environmental sustainability also would increase their standard of life.
Some potential blowbacks

Even if the social contract of the technate states that it’s users, voluntary accepting the “Social contract of the third Millennium”, would work a minimum amount of hours within the technate, thus reducing the overall work-hours, the lack of monetary income could potentially lead to efficiency losses and environmental degradation due to insufficient motivation of the personnel. This could be partially solved by instututing a reward system, make the distribution system semi-flat instead of wholly flat or make all jobs more enjoyable.

Also, if that is not the case, the lack of exclusive property rights could lead to abuse of technology and environment, thus creating a quality of products below sustenance for the users. Some personal responsibility is thus most likely needed.
Transitionary phase

We must remember that energy accounting is a system which have never been empirically tried out within an acceptable context. Therefore, we could today never be certain what effects it would have and how it will affect the socio-economic situation in Europe. As scientists, we must be given opportunity to test out the system and remedy some of the unintentional ills it may put over Europe, before aiming to unleashing it fully. Even if energy accounting in it’s present form would prove to be sufficient, it would still be a hazardous process to implement it before testing it out first.

One arena to test it out might be in the form of a proto-technate, namely a network of inter-changing eco-cooperatives aiming to become both automated and self-sufficient.

We would also need a new form of calculation software as well as an own internal computer network to handle distribution. One could expect that the experimental forms of energy accounting at the beginning only will take care of very simple tasks, before upgrading by experience and natural evolution.

Still, it stands quite clear that we are in desperate need of an alternative to an economic system which today cannot stop it’s own self-suffocation. Energy accounting as a theory is more developed than ParEcon or time-unit accounting, and less based on “human nature”. In fact, people may be as selfish and greedy as possible, and yet, energy accounting would offer a compelling alternative to the current state for them."

ComradeRed
1st August 2007, 02:47
Before we start investigating energy accounting, we must understand it&#39;s premises. The foundation of mainstream economics is five postulates, based around a theory that all resources are finite, or "scarce", while human will to consume is infinite. This theory is largely unsubstantiated, but without it, it would have been impossible for economists to calculate. Yes, we all know that Marx never used math...nor did Ricardo <_<

It is quite possible to do calculations without having to resort to this nonsensical set of axioms the vulgar economist puts forward.

It appears Technocrats aren&#39;t good mathematicians.


If we assume two Egyptian subjects 4.000 years ago, we could construct a hypothetical price system not involving monetary exchange units. We say that the first of the peasants, A, desires a good, x, which the other peasant, B, is in possession of. A, in her turn, is in possession of an unspecified number of good y, which B is desiring.

In this hypothesis, the price will be in correlation of the point where each of the persons involved in the exchange finds it suitable to trade. We assume that both wants the good which the other one possess, and that they will exchange to the point where each of them are satisfied. The exchange do not need to be equal, since the deal would be subject to the individual demand of each person involved in the exchange. So to reiterate the problem: man A wants 1 unit of x, man B has 1 unit of x, and man A has some unknown number of units of some different commodity y.

The price magically is set where the people, man A and man B, come to an agreement.

If we use vulgar economics, we would determine the indifference curves, and then go wild to find the price.

However, the problem arises when one cannot measure the utility of the goods being exchanged. Vulgar economists like to overlook this small problem.

The alternate approach would be to calculate out the price via a Neo-Ricardian or Marxist approach. It does not use the nonsensical axioms first mentioned by the Technocrat that wrote this.

This alternative has been proven mathematically to be logically sound...the vulgar economist&#39;s approach has, likewise, been proven mathematically to be based on circular logic.


More recently, money was started to being used, because it simplified exchange and made it more socially secure to trade, due to the fact that money A) is not a good of sustenance, and B) is permanent in nature. The value represented by money is of course also dependent on it&#39;s relative scarcity in relation to the amount of persons involved in the given market. In modern times, money is not a commodity of sustenance...in "civilized" areas of the world anyways. There was a time when cows were used as currency.

The part of this proposition that disturbs me the most is the last sentence wherein the "value represented by money is of course also dependent on it&#39;s relative scarcity in relation to the amount of persons involved in the given market".

This is based on a priori reasoning. Worse, it fails to hold in the modern, civilized world where they assume it to: money is not based on a commodity (nor is it really a commodity anymore) in the West.

The proposition reeks of vulgar economic reasoning.


Money is possible to accumulate. That&#39;s kind of why money was created: so you wouldn&#39;t have to lug around bulky items to exchange. Instead, you accumulate it in your wallet and go off to the market to get a beer.


Moreover, exchange accounting requires everyone to participate in a process of production, whether as investor or as employee. Investors don&#39;t "participate in a process of production"...they oversee it and reap the rewards from it.

That&#39;s kind of the entire point of the production process.


To have general energy accounting imposed upon a given economy, three characteristics must be fulfilled. There must be enough resource diversity to support a self-sustaining system without the need for exchanging goods and services with the rest of the world, this system must be technologically developed so it can utilise it&#39;s resources more efficiently than any existing competitor, and it would need to have at itäs disposal personnel properly educated in managing the system. Without these three preconditions fulfilled, a technate could not be established. Of course, energy accounting would, in a partial, primitive version be existent in a proto-technate (an expanding network of eco-units run by technocratic principles). This is rather poorly written in my opinion.

The three criteria:

"There must be enough resource diversity to support a self-sustaining system without the need for exchanging goods and services with the rest of the world, ..."

"...this system must be technologically developed so it can utilise it&#39;s resources more efficiently than any existing competitor, ..."

"...and it would need to have at itäs disposal personnel properly educated in managing the system."


The first criteria basically requires this hypothetical economy to be completely decoupled from the rest of the world.

The second requires the hypothetical economy to be more efficient than competitors...which presupposes the existence of a free market which implies a contradiction with the first criteria.

Why in the hell would one need to be more efficient than the competitors if the economy is cut off from them?

The third requires a subsidized bourgeoisie.

And yet we are to believe this isn&#39;t capitalism :lol:

The basic scheme of giving "energy credits" depending on someone&#39;s labor-power and labor-time is cartoonish at best. The idea that:
The usership right is a part of the social contract which is the technate. simply tells us that the bourgeoisie have consolidated into a kernel dubbed "the technate" and, worse, workers don&#39;t even retain personal possessions.

The workers merely "rent" them from their overlords.

This isn&#39;t capitalism. The technocracy movement is correct in that instance. It&#39;s feudalism&#33;

And, like it or not, energy credits is a form of currency. It is used as the medium of exchange...well, renting of items. It "expresses value" in terms of energy credits...thus it fulfills the criteria as money in Marxist Economics.

The technocracy economic plans sound like one step forward, two steps back.

Dimentio
1st August 2007, 03:01
I did not state that economists did not or do not use maths, only that the five postulates, which are based on idealist assumptions about human behavior is not by any means objective facts or truths, only tools to help economists calculate. Economists are actually in disagreement whether or not money could be seen as a commodity. We could look at it as a commodity because of it&#39;s permanent nature (it could again - be accumulated).

About the three criterias.

1. No. It demands it to be able to produce everything within it&#39;s own borders.

2. And it must do it more efficiently than it would by bartering with the outside world.

3. Thank you for telling us that workers per definition are serfs who don&#39;t fathom technical or theoretical skills&#33; In a technate, the population at large should be well-educated.

And, about energy accounting itself: The workers are owning their equal shares of production capacity, not renting it. They have a guaranteed right to usership. The reason why the technate exists is to efficiently administrate the whole thing. Where in the article does it read that people would be "given" energy credits because of their work input?

Nowhere&#33;

Their input would be based on:

The production capacity of the technate/Number of citizens

Dimentio
1st August 2007, 03:16
By the way, when it comes to economy, it is hard to see how the labor theory of value is anything other than an idealist assertion. Often, a lot of the original, physical energy that corresponded a material has declined when the process is ready.

I mean, if I chose to walk on my jogging-machine or chose to work by sitting on a chair filling blanquets, or engage in a sale where I do no job at all, I would not have earned more money in the first instance than in the other two.

Theoretically and historically, the most efficient ways to earn money under a market economy is to be a capitalist. And a capitalist does not add much labor to the process at all. So much is true. But a worker won&#39;t get anything from a product that no consumer would want to buy, either, no matter how hard the labor input was originally.

Technocrats deny the existence of any objective "value" of goods and services independent from individual minds, except in terms of real, physical, quantifiable energy. That is a thermodynamic outlook on production, suited for a technocratic, post-capitalist society.

ComradeRed
1st August 2007, 03:42
Originally posted by Serpent+July 31, 2007 06:01 pm--> (Serpent &#064; July 31, 2007 06:01 pm)I did not state that economists did not or do not use maths, only that the five postulates, which are based on idealist assumptions about human behavior is not by any means objective facts or truths, only tools to help economists calculate. [/b]
You actually believe this? You need to meet an economist and see how these five axioms are treated by them.

Further, you are right. You did not "state" a thing, you quoted an article which stated that doing calculations in economics would be "impossible" (their very word) without these five axioms.

That&#39;s clearly not the case. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant to the fact that: doing calculations in economics is not based at all on the five axioms.


Economists are actually in disagreement whether or not money could be seen as a commodity. We could look at it as a commodity because of it&#39;s permanent nature (it could again - be accumulated). Are you actually trying to appeal to vulgar economics?


About the three criterias.

1. No. It demands it to be able to produce everything within it&#39;s own borders. Yes, the hypothetical economy is completely decoupled from the rest of the world.


2. And it must do it more efficiently than it would by bartering with the outside world. Which is where assuming mass automation would magically does this come in, eh?


3. Thank you for telling us that workers per definition are serfs who don&#39;t fathom technical or theoretical skills&#33; In a technate, the population at large should be well-educated. Is that why technocrats state: "...and it would need to have at itäs disposal personnel properly educated in managing the system."

If the workers were truly the intellectuals you say they are, why would you need those specially "educated in managing the system"?

What you are doing is resurrecting the bourgeoisie while retaining the title of "personnel properly educated in managing the system" (far catchier).


And, about energy accounting itself: The workers are owning their equal shares of production capacity, not renting it. They have a guaranteed right to usership. The reason why the technate exists is to efficiently administrate the whole thing. Yeah, sure. Everything&#39;s "shared" (no ownership&#33;) which is why the article states:
Article
Thus, no individual and no groups of individuals would “own” the means of production in themselves, but the fruits of the production capacity would be under usership of the individuals who are users of the technate. These usership rights could neither be sold, bought or compromised except for in cases of emigration.

The usership rights are not correspond to “real resources” but rather to the production of consumer items and services. Hence, cars, computers and other machinery is accounted for as parts of the technate. The cost of using them is corresponding to the electricity in usage. So the "usership rights" really means "ability to produce commodities and services".

As for using the commodities and services, those are rented out with "the cost of using them" as "corresponding to the electricity in usage". "Electricity usage" in their usage or in their creation?

But really the workers "own" it...and are forced to rent it.

The days of wage pimpery would thus begin. Oh but "wage" really means "the equal quantum of energy credits distributed regardless of productivity of the worker". So it boils down to simple prostitution.


Where in the article does it read that people would be "given" energy credits because of their work input? You&#39;re right...in theory, there would be equal distribution of energy credits.

This could get ugly if the amount of energy credits distributed is too little or too much.

The sum total of energy credits is determined by...? The total energy used in the production process?

You run into problems here: when do you "start counting" the beginning of a production process?

You would have to mass regimentize everything so production becomes a sacred ritual with various "begin" and "end" dates for various industries. Even if you do this, you don&#39;t have a good answer&#33;

You need to assume that the production process for every industry begins and ends at the same time, otherwise there would be nonlinear anomalies which would be difficult to take into account for "energy accounting".

On the other hand, if you were to abolish such accounting all together, you wouldn&#39;t have to worry about this.


By the way, when it comes to economy, it is hard to see how the labor theory of value is anything other than an idealist assertion. A rather dubious assertion, and an unsubstantiated one at that. It sounds as if you just wanted to call everything "idealistic" today&#33;


Theoretically and historically, the most efficient ways to earn money under a market economy is to be a capitalist. And a capitalist does not add much labor to the process at all. So much is true. But a worker won&#39;t get anything from a product that no consumer would want to buy, either, no matter how hard the labor input was originally. You don&#39;t seem to understand how the labor theory of value explains the "phenomena" of value.

It doesn&#39;t matter whether the product the worker makes has a use-value to the worker or not...unless the worker is going to buy it.

If one is to purchase an item, it first must have a use-value (i.e. be useful).

If one is going to produce an item, it should have a use-value for someone else. This "someone else" is called "the purchaser" in the vernacular.


Technocrats deny the existence of any objective "value" of goods and services independent from individual minds, except in terms of real, physical, quantifiable energy. That is a thermodynamic outlook on production, suited for a technocratic, post-capitalist society. Like it or not, the Neo-Ricardian crucible absolutely demolishes the technocratic theory of value.

Of course, I suspect the come back would be "Ah, but the technocratic theory of value is for a post-revolutionary society&#33; It doesn&#39;t explain current phenomena that&#39;s observable&#33;"

The simple conclusion is: "Ah, so the technocratic theory of value is not scientific." It is completely decoupled from material reality and is little more than a pseudo-Utopian Socialist fevered dream.

Dimentio
1st August 2007, 11:32
You actually believe this? You need to meet an economist and see how these five axioms are treated by them.

Further, you are right. You did not "state" a thing, you quoted an article which stated that doing calculations in economics would be "impossible" (their very word) without these five axioms.

That&#39;s clearly not the case. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant to the fact that: doing calculations in economics is not based at all on the five axioms.

I have met several neo-classical economists, and all of them has stated that scarcity is inherent to economics, because human wants to consume are always greater than the resource pool.


Are you actually trying to appeal to vulgar economics?

The article was written in intention to see it from the perspective of vulgar economics, who are the dominating sphere within academicia today. Ricardian and marxian theories of value are not so respected within university environments anymore.


Yes, the hypothetical economy is completely decoupled from the rest of the world.


Is that why technocrats state: "...and it would need to have at itäs disposal personnel properly educated in managing the system."

If the workers were truly the intellectuals you say they are, why would you need those specially "educated in managing the system"?

1. Yes, it should be. That does not mean that it will be from the beginning, but that it should strive to reach that point.

2. Yes. You cannot understand the reality of mass automatisation. In 1943, 4-5 of 10 jobs in USA where in production. Today, about 1 in 10 are in production.

3. These who are specially educated in managing the system are workers. The problem is that we might not have enough of those with the right technical qualifications.


What you are doing is resurrecting the bourgeoisie while retaining the title of "personnel properly educated in managing the system" (far catchier).

And what f*cking bourgeoisie?&#33; They won&#39;t own the means of production, and they will consist an absolute majority of the working population. In a technate, to reduce labor hours, every person fit for work should do a specific amount of work hours. All of those would be consisting of expert jobs, since our goal is to eliminate a lot of menial labor (toilet cleaning, waitressing, sitting at a disk at wal-mart - typical lumpen-prole jobs unworthy of human beings). The final goal of technocracy is of course that everyone should belong to some sort of aristocracy which is living off machine labor, but that lies several centuries ahead of course.


You&#39;re right...in theory, there would be equal distribution of energy credits.

This could get ugly if the amount of energy credits distributed is too little or too much.

The sum total of energy credits is determined by...? The total energy used in the production process?

You run into problems here: when do you "start counting" the beginning of a production process?

You would have to mass regimentize everything so production becomes a sacred ritual with various "begin" and "end" dates for various industries. Even if you do this, you don&#39;t have a good answer&#33;

You need to assume that the production process for every industry begins and ends at the same time, otherwise there would be nonlinear anomalies which would be difficult to take into account for "energy accounting".

On the other hand, if you were to abolish such accounting all together, you wouldn&#39;t have to worry about this.


Usership rights means that everyone is entitled to use the infrastructure and order what they would like through energy accounting. It does not mean that you yourself will toil on a car or on harvesting your food. We technocrats wants to reduce labor input and maximise output through automatisation. Instead of unemployment, we will get less labor hours on a gross state.

A workers is not owning the commodities, but her share of what it can produce. That is so that we could prevent bottlenecks and increase efficiency (decrease load factors, i.e amount of infrastructure which is idle).

If the amount of energy credits is too little, then a technate cannot be an option. That is why a technate must have a specific size, often encompassing entire continents. That is criteria nr 1&#33;

The total amount of energy credits is determined by the total capacity to produce.

And yes, we will need to standardise all production processes, that is why we will have a technate for the first place. And that would allow us to fulfill our goals of minimising input and maximising output. "The highest possible standard of life for the greatest possible number for the longest possible span of time".


Like it or not, the Neo-Ricardian crucible absolutely demolishes the technocratic theory of value.

Of course, I suspect the come back would be "Ah, but the technocratic theory of value is for a post-revolutionary society&#33; It doesn&#39;t explain current phenomena that&#39;s observable&#33;"

The simple conclusion is: "Ah, so the technocratic theory of value is not scientific." It is completely decoupled from material reality and is little more than a pseudo-Utopian Socialist fevered dream.

I was not talking about use-value to the worker, but rather to the consumer who will buy it. When it comes to producer value, it is almost as vague as "human rights", and it&#39;s strength only lies in the amount of hours invested in the work, which is measurable and impossible to return. But I cannot see what it has to do with the fact that technocracy is not focusing primarily on the human being but on infrastructure.

Like it or not, but we cannot establish socialism through the price system, and we cannot solve problems by the same level of thinking that established them. I begin to get a bit tired of your purpose-based attacks against technocracy which are based on your misunderstandings and the image of technocracy that is glued to your brain.

Dimentio
10th August 2007, 11:25
[With advanced technology] real wealth manifests itself . . . and large industry reveals this--in the monstrous disproportion between the labour time applied, and its product, as well as in the qualitative imbalance between labour, reduced to a pure abstraction, and the power of the production process it superintends. Labour no longer appears so much to be included within the production process; rather, the human being comes to relate more as watchman and regulator to the production itself . . . He steps to the side of the production process instead of being its chief actor. In this transformation, it is neither the direct human labour he himself performs, nor the time during which he works, but rather the appropriation of his general productive power, his understanding of nature and his mastery over it by virtue of his presence as a social body--it is, in a word, the development of the social individual which appears as the great foundation-stone of production and of wealth.

-- Karl Marx