help me with a reply to theology lol...

[R_P_A_S]

this girl made a comment..


HUGO CHAVEZ= COMMUNISM= BAD!

SO I TOLD HER THE FOLLOWING...

leave emotions, and opinions aside.
learn about the class struggle.

for a united latin america. free from oppression and imperialism!

=)

SHE REPLIED:


ha! thanks but no. last thing we need is dictator chavez shutting down free speech in other countries =P

I SAID:

I'm not talking about Chavez.

and "thanks but no" what are you saying "no" to? educating your self about the class struggle?
or that you don't care about Latin America being united, free from oppression and imperialism?

It's so easy to make assumptions by what others tell you and from bias corporate media. If you ever have time you should really look into it.

SHE SAID:


i have looked into it. major reason why the Church in Latin America preaches liberation theology. i know a lot of ppl have a problem with that, but as for me if it's steered away from marxist influence, it wouldn't be so bad. does latin america need reform? yes. i just don't agree with what some people are preaching down there.


LOL this is ALMOST TOO EASY! Theology???? haha. So much thoughts and replies come to my head. but can you guys help me? what can i say?

thank youy!

[R_P_A_S]

how does Liberation Theology plan on liberating the oppressed peoples?
by prayer and charity ???

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

Nicaragua revolutionaries were Marxist/ liberation theologians. :D

So they believe in revolution just like us, they just dress it up in religion.

[Faux Real]

Originally posted by R_P_A_S+July 30, 2007 05:22 pm--> (R_P_A_S @ July 30, 2007 05:22 pm) how does Liberation Theology plan on liberating the oppressed peoples?
by prayer and charity ??? [/b]

wiki
In essence, liberation theology explores the relationship between Christian, specifically Roman Catholic, theology and political activism, particularly in areas of social justice, poverty and human rights. The main methodological innovation of liberation theology is to approach theology (i.e. to speak of God) from the viewpoint of the economically poor and oppressed of the human community. According to Jon Sobrino, S.J., the poor are a privileged channel of God's grace. According to Phillip Berryman, liberation theology is "an interpretation of Christian faith through the poor's suffering, their struggle and hope, and a critique of society and the Catholic faith and Christianity through the eyes of the poor".

Emphasis is placed on those parts of the Bible where Jesus' mission is described in terms of liberation and as a bringer of justicee.g. Matthew 26:51-52(Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear."Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.). This passage is interpreted as a call to arms to carry out the Christian mission of justice -- literally by some. A number of liberation theologians, though not all, also add certain Marxist concepts such as the doctrine of perpetual class struggle.

Liberation theology also emphasizes individual self-actualization as part of God's divine purpose for humankind. In other words, we are given life so that we may pursue it to its full potential. Therefore, obstacles or oppressions put in our path must be resisted and abolished.

In addition to teaching at some Roman Catholic universities and seminaries, liberation theologians can often be found in Protestant-oriented schools. They tend to have considerable contact with the poor and interpret sacred scripture partly based on their experiences in this context -- what they label praxis.

So, I'm assuming that yes, many liberation theologians advocate class struggle and revolution to free themselves from their oppressors.

Also, you should try to explain to that lady what Marxism is and is not first...

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by rev0lt+July 31, 2007 02:26 am--> (rev0lt @ July 31, 2007 02:26 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 05:22 pm
how does Liberation Theology plan on liberating the oppressed peoples?
by prayer and charity ???

wiki
In essence, liberation theology explores the relationship between Christian, specifically Roman Catholic, theology and political activism, particularly in areas of social justice, poverty and human rights. The main methodological innovation of liberation theology is to approach theology (i.e. to speak of God) from the viewpoint of the economically poor and oppressed of the human community. According to Jon Sobrino, S.J., the poor are a privileged channel of God's grace. According to Phillip Berryman, liberation theology is "an interpretation of Christian faith through the poor's suffering, their struggle and hope, and a critique of society and the Catholic faith and Christianity through the eyes of the poor".

Emphasis is placed on those parts of the Bible where Jesus' mission is described in terms of liberation and as a bringer of justicee.g. Matthew 26:51-52(Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear."Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.). This passage is interpreted as a call to arms to carry out the Christian mission of justice -- literally by some. A number of liberation theologians, though not all, also add certain Marxist concepts such as the doctrine of perpetual class struggle.

Liberation theology also emphasizes individual self-actualization as part of God's divine purpose for humankind. In other words, we are given life so that we may pursue it to its full potential. Therefore, obstacles or oppressions put in our path must be resisted and abolished.

In addition to teaching at some Roman Catholic universities and seminaries, liberation theologians can often be found in Protestant-oriented schools. They tend to have considerable contact with the poor and interpret sacred scripture partly based on their experiences in this context -- what they label praxis.

So, I'm assuming that yes, many liberation theologians advocate class struggle and revolution to free themselves from their oppressors.

Also, you should try to explain to that lady what Marxism is and is not first... [/b]
lame. it contradicts its self.

[Faux Real]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 07:56 pm
lame. it contradicts its self.
Please explain!?

[Rawthentic]

My family is from Mexico and I visit frequently. I know for a fact that there are Marxists and revolutionaries that become priests and fathers just to reach out the people and the masses and spread the message against oppression and exploitation. They understand very well that Latin American people are fervently religious.

[BreadBros]

Liberation theology argues that Jesus can be looked at as a revolutionary leader who cared about social ills and thus that model should be followed. At it's best its a sort of pseudo-Marxism dressed up in religious terms, more commonly though it is just social democratic reformism dressed up in both pseudo-religious and pseudo-Marxist framework. It doesn't really come from a class-struggle basis, it comes from a "humanitarian" or social-ills basis. So ... it's somewhat progressive because it argues that the Church should focus more on stopping hunger and things of that nature instead of just preaching. But it does not seek to form socialism or a classless society nor does it support armed struggle, etc.

Anyway, it has played an important part in Latin American history, if you want to know more look into the life of a priest named Oscar Romero* who was pretty important for the left in El Salvador. However, that girl is hopeless now. Pope John Paul II and his successor (I forget his name...the Hitler Youth guy) were/are both adamantly against Liberation Theology and removed any and all senior leaders in Latin America who preached it from power. I suppose you might still find some in the lower ranks of the clergy who believe it, but thats increasingly rare.

Basically what that girl is saying is that she recognizes there is class struggle in Latin America. But she would rather attempt to smooth it over through sanitized religion rather than analyze it more deeply.

BCS: True, the Sandinistas were VERY influenced by Liberation Theology. Unfortunately for us all, it seems like the "Theology" beat out the "Liberation" and today they have abandoned most of their Marxist viewpoints in favor of Christian social-democracy. So thats why we've ended up with a new FSLN that is both socially conservative (banning abortions) and also reformist (at BEST) when it comes to economics. Certainly not the ideal model we should follow.

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Romero

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31, 2007 03:52 am
Liberation theology argues that Jesus can be looked at as a revolutionary leader who cared about social ills and thus that model should be followed. At it's best its a sort of pseudo-Marxism dressed up in religious terms, more commonly though it is just social democratic reformism dressed up in both pseudo-religious and pseudo-Marxist framework. It doesn't really come from a class-struggle basis, it comes from a "humanitarian" or social-ills basis. So ... it's somewhat progressive because it argues that the Church should focus more on stopping hunger and things of that nature instead of just preaching. But it does not seek to form socialism or a classless society nor does it support armed struggle, etc.

Anyway, it has played an important part in Latin American history, if you want to know more look into the life of a priest named Oscar Romero* who was pretty important for the left in El Salvador. However, that girl is hopeless now. Pope John Paul II and his successor (I forget his name...the Hitler Youth guy) were/are both adamantly against Liberation Theology and removed any and all senior leaders in Latin America who preached it from power. I suppose you might still find some in the lower ranks of the clergy who believe it, but thats increasingly rare.

Basically what that girl is saying is that she recognizes there is class struggle in Latin America. But she would rather attempt to smooth it over through sanitized religion rather than analyze it more deeply.

BCS: True, the Sandinistas were VERY influenced by Liberation Theology. Unfortunately for us all, it seems like the "Theology" beat out the "Liberation" and today they have abandoned most of their Marxist viewpoints in favor of Christian social-democracy. So thats why we've ended up with a new FSLN that is both socially conservative (banning abortions) and also reformist (at BEST) when it comes to economics. Certainly not the ideal model we should follow.

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Romero
thank you sir!

[Janus]

Your debate opponent is a bit lost. First of all, Chavez has stated that he is not a Marxist.
Chavez on marxism (http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2004/08/296440.html)

Secondly, the mainstream Catholic clergy is no longer big on liberation theology as it has increasingly threatened aspects of the Catholic Church's positions and leadership. However, from what I've heard, it's still preached by some of the rank and file as well as within some homegrown circles.

Pope Benedict's position on it (http://www.christendom-awake.org/pages/ratzinger/liberationtheol.htm)

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 10:39 pm
Your debate opponent is a bit lost. First of all, Chavez has stated that he is not a Marxist.
Chavez on marxism (http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2004/08/296440.html)

Secondly, the mainstream Catholic clergy is no longer big on liberation theology as it has increasingly threatened aspects of the Catholic Church's positions and leadership. However, from what I've heard, it's still preached by some of the rank and file as well as within some homegrown circles.

Pope Benedict's position on it (http://www.christendom-awake.org/pages/ratzinger/liberationtheol.htm)
No, he calls himself a trotskyist. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6246219.stm) ;)

[Dr Mindbender]

im quite interested in the theory that jesus can be regarded as a progressive figure.
As ive said before, the new testament is full of progressive content and it pisses me off that you have to be a stone cold conservative just to be taken seriously.

Edric O made a good argument in the thread that i started that he was turned into a reactionary icon by the romans who decided it would be more constructive to amalgamate christianity into the establishment rather than repress it or compete with it with polythestic religions.

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by Voz de la Gente [email protected] 31, 2007 03:09 am
My family is from Mexico and I visit frequently. I know for a fact that there are Marxists and revolutionaries that become priests and fathers just to reach out the people and the masses and spread the message against oppression and exploitation. They understand very well that Latin American people are fervently religious.
The clerical vermin that fill the churches are also the ones rallying for an abortion ban.


Latin Americans are fervently religious, and because of that, it is not a good idea to reach them with an overtly anticlerical message. But at the same time, it is not a good idea to try to sinthesize revolutionary politics with the reactionary shit that comes out from the catholic churches.

Anyone who has done their homework, will realize that much of the time, the catholic church has been diametrically opposite to much of the social movements.

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by Marmot+August 11, 2007 09:49 pm--> (Marmot @ August 11, 2007 09:49 pm)
Voz de la Gente [email protected] 31, 2007 03:09 am
My family is from Mexico and I visit frequently. I know for a fact that there are Marxists and revolutionaries that become priests and fathers just to reach out the people and the masses and spread the message against oppression and exploitation. They understand very well that Latin American people are fervently religious.
The clerical vermin that fill the churches are also the ones rallying for an abortion ban.


Latin Americans are fervently religious, and because of that, it is not a good idea to reach them with an overtly anticlerical message. But at the same time, it is not a good idea to try to sinthesize revolutionary politics with the reactionary shit that comes out from the catholic churches.

Anyone who has done their homework, will realize that much of the time, the catholic church has been diametrically opposite to much of the social movements. [/b]
is it always essential for revolutionary sentiment to be 'anti-clerical' though?

Im not convinced that christianity has always been reactionary, i think it was turned that way by those who had interests to protect by turning it that way.

[Janus]

No, he calls himself a trotskyist.
So? He's also called himself a Maoist, a "Quixotist", a Fidelist,...

[The-Spark]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 10:11 pm

No, he calls himself a trotskyist.
So? He's also called himself a Maoist, a "Quixotist", a Fidelist,...
Whats a "Quixotist"

[Janus]

Whats a "Quixotist"
Its derived from the fictional character Don Quixote and according to Chavez is "a fighter who came to undo injustice and fix the world".

Don Quixote and Chavez (http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0525/p01s03-woam.html)

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by Ulster Socialist+August 11, 2007 09:52 pm--> (Ulster Socialist @ August 11, 2007 09:52 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 09:49 pm

Voz de la Gente [email protected] 31, 2007 03:09 am
My family is from Mexico and I visit frequently. I know for a fact that there are Marxists and revolutionaries that become priests and fathers just to reach out the people and the masses and spread the message against oppression and exploitation. They understand very well that Latin American people are fervently religious.
The clerical vermin that fill the churches are also the ones rallying for an abortion ban.


Latin Americans are fervently religious, and because of that, it is not a good idea to reach them with an overtly anticlerical message. But at the same time, it is not a good idea to try to sinthesize revolutionary politics with the reactionary shit that comes out from the catholic churches.

Anyone who has done their homework, will realize that much of the time, the catholic church has been diametrically opposite to much of the social movements.
is it always essential for revolutionary sentiment to be 'anti-clerical' though?

Im not convinced that christianity has always been reactionary, i think it was turned that way by those who had interests to protect by turning it that way. [/b]
Christianity is not only reactionary because the institutions behind it have been, it is reactionary because it is a static moral dogma that is meant to not change--and worst of all--it is a dogma that submits all humanity to a concept of "god".

it teaches people to be miserable and weak, rather than assert their own will before the enemies of life.

[Jazzratt]

A reply I woul make would point out the following inconsitensy in that person's line - they do not accept supposed "dicators" like chavez but respect and even admire the dictatorship of the clergy and of their imaginary god.

[freakazoid]

it teaches people to be miserable and weak, rather than assert their own will before the enemies of life.

I never picked that up.

[Dean]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 10:49 pm
Christianity is not only reactionary because the institutions behind it have been, it is reactionary because it is a static moral dogma that is meant to not change--and worst of all--it is a dogma that submits all humanity to a concept of "god".

it teaches people to be miserable and weak, rather than assert their own will before the enemies of life.
So static, eh? I guess when Jesus said


5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ, and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
He was promoting submission among men?

It is clear that the christian dogma as it is preached effectively has changed since the religion came about. Originally, the Christians were communists, and did follow this message of "no masters." This is according to scholars, not just a bit out of the bible.

No dogma is really static. The real nature of every dogma is constantly changing, even if the words don't. The U.S. is still a "free nation." There is clearly the element of stubbornness, submission, and authority, but that isn't true for all christians, and I don't think a majority. Look at south america - they love their Catholocism, but they still fight oppressors when they must. The same is true for groups like Hizb Allah. So what if the religion has negative dogma? The oppressed will have their way in the end. And dogma doesn't necessarily translate into policy.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

The Bible is contradictory enough to support anything, including submission to the ruling class.

[Dean]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 12:13 pm
The Bible is contradictory enough to support anything, including submission to the ruling class.
Exactly - it's not static!