Rapture Ready: Christians United for Israel

[IcarusAngel]

Max Blumenthal attends a Christians United for Israel Summit to listen to a bunch of crazy Christians proclaim that the rapture is coming within our lifetime and their hopes that Jews will undergo a sudden conversion as a "Nation" and be "restored" when it does.

According to "The God Who Wasn't There" about 44% of people believe the rapture is coming. And is that Joseph Lieberman, an independent (ex-democrat, who also almost was the VP of the US if Al Gore won 2000, which he did, but that's another matter) American senator speaking at this event filled with nuts who believe in a war with Iran as part of the battle of armageddon , and that it interferes with the Second Coming?

They're looking forward to Armageddon and the rapture. Welcome to the 21st century.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/max-blumenth...th_b_57826.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/max-blumenthal/rapture-ready-the-unauth_b_57826.html)

Christian Nut: When we disappear, you better start to worry!

MB: [Laughs]

Christian Nut: Because if you haven't seen the left behind series, it's scary.

MB: The one with Kirk Cameron, right? From Growing Pains?

Excellent material.

And overall this is a good look as to why Christians support Israel -- it has nothing to do with who's right or wrong from an international relations perspective and everything to do with the this "end times agenda" nonsense.

Support this guy and his work:

http://maxblumenthal.com/

[praxis1966]

If the Jewish people had any sense at all they'd distance themselves as far as humanly possible from these whackjobs. Fundamentalist Christians, like the ones from Christians United for Israel, believe that Israel going to war with nearby infidels is one of the signs of the Apocolypse and therefore the Rapture. What they try not to talk about with Jews is that when these events happen, all the Jews are either killed or converted to Christianity. Doesn't sound so pleasant, if you ask me.

[freakazoid]

And overall this is a good look as to why Christians support Israel -- it has nothing to do with who's right or wrong from an international relations perspective and everything to do with the this "end times agenda" nonsense.

All Christians support Israel? I believe that we are getting close to Armageddon but that doesn't mean that I support the war. Just because they claim to be doing the Lords work does not make it so,

Matthew 7" 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'"

[praxis1966]

All Christians support Israel? I believe that we are getting close to Armageddon but that doesn't mean that I support the war.

Uh, if you don't support Israel you can hardly call yourself a Christian. The Jews taking back the West Bank and the Gaza Strip is the stuff of Biblical prophecy. Therefore, to oppose Israel in it's conquest of the Palestinian is to oppose the teachings of your chosen religion.


Just because they claim to be doing the Lords work does not make it so

Quoth every religious person trying to distance themselves from the whacked out shit that other followers of that religion do. Frankly, I don't trust any religion, because they all lead to zealotry, bigotry, and sectarian violence at some point.


Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Yeah, well, then there're these fun little tidbits of Biblical prophecy:


Zecheriah 13:8 "In the whole land (Israel)," declares the Lord, "two-thirds will be struck down and perish; yet one third will be left in it."


Romans 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob."

All of this is supposed to begin with the reconstruction of The Temple on the Mount, which I'm sure the Muslims will be none too happy about, considering the al-Aqsa mosqe currently stands there. Then, Satan pops up, desecrates the Temple, and Jesus returns. What happens next? Well, mass genocide and destruction of course (if the above quoted passages are any indication). But go ahead, freakazoid. Keep telling yourself that Christianity isn't a homicidal and sociopathic religion. Fact is, genocide is 'the will of [the] father.'

[freakazoid]

Uh, if you don't support Israel you can hardly call yourself a Christian. The Jews taking back the West Bank and the Gaza Strip is the stuff of Biblical prophecy. Therefore, to oppose Israel in it's conquest of the Palestinian is to oppose the teachings of your chosen religion.

Do you know what a prophecy is? It is telling what will happen, whether it is good or bad. So just because it is saying what will happen doesn't mean that we should support it. So does that mean that we also support the desecration of the temple, because since that is in the prophecy it must mean that we support it.


But go ahead, freakazoid. Keep telling yourself that Christianity isn't a homicidal and sociopathic religion. Fact is, genocide is 'the will of [the] father.'

Why don't you try reading the teachings of Jesus and then try to keep telling yourself that Christianity is a homicidal and sociopathic religion.

[Marko]

Ridiculous. Atheist, Buddhist, pagan or whatever people with Jewish parents are allowed to become citizens of Israel under the Law of Return. The only requirement is 1/4 Jewish ancestry.

However, Christians are an exception. A Catholic priest who had Jewish parents and had heroically saved hundreds of Jews from Nazis was denied citizenship by the Israeli Supreme Court because if you believe in Jesus you cannot be a Jew.

[RedCommieBear]

Uh, if you don't support Israel you can hardly call yourself a Christian. The Jews taking back the West Bank and the Gaza Strip is the stuff of Biblical prophecy. Therefore, to oppose Israel in it's conquest of the Palestinian is to oppose the teachings of your chosen religion.

I disagree. I find this analysis pretty good.


Munib A. Younan, bishop of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Jordan (and Palestine), says Christian Zionism is heresy and misinterprets Christ and the gospel.

In an interview with a Danish newspaper, Younan said Christian Zionism promotes Christ not as Savior but as a military general, readying his forces for a huge battle, Armageddon. "The true Christ is the Christ of the cross and the open tomb, bringing hope, peace, reconciliation and new life," he said.

Christian Zionists pretend to love the Jewish people, Younan said, but are actually anti-Jewish in their teachings. "The Jewish people are simply characters in the Christian Zionist heresy and in the so-called final battle," he said. "[This teaching says] two-thirds of the Jewish people will be destroyed because they don't believe in Christ, while the other one-third will be converted to Christ.

"Christian Zionism is anti-peace and anti-reconciliation. The teachings are racist, calling for the transfer of Palestinians out of this land."

Adherents to Christian Zionism can be found in every church body, including Lutheran, Younan says. His hope is to alert all Christians everywhere to its dangers and false teachings.

This article (http://www.thelutheran.org/article/article.cfm?article_id=4238) can be found here.

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29, 2007 11:33 pm
If the Jewish people had any sense at all they'd distance themselves as far as humanly possible from these whackjobs. Fundamentalist Christians, like the ones from Christians United for Israel, believe that Israel going to war with nearby infidels is one of the signs of the Apocolypse and therefore the Rapture. What they try not to talk about with Jews is that when these events happen, all the Jews are either killed or converted to Christianity. Doesn't sound so pleasant, if you ask me.
When I was in Israel, I repeated that mantra over and over again.
"The biggest supporters of Zionism in the US are the military-industrial complex, and the Christian fundamentalists. Both of whom desire conflict in the region, and who only superficially have the best interests of the Jews at heart."

In short, the Palestinians were more brothers and sisters to us than the Yanks. And both the Israelis and the Palestinians are being used by theocrats in the US and Iran to destroy each other.

The Israeli ruling cabal are a bunch of paranoid, macho military types.

And while I believe that Jews have a right to be in Israel, and that the "citizenship Birthright" given to all Jews worldwide (Israeli Citizenship) is a good idea, I think it ought to be granted to Palestinians as well.

I saw the apartheid myself. The Israelis are, (the majority anyway) not like the Americans. They are not bumbling oafs who accept what they're told. They don't trust their government. They're secular; sane people. They want peace, but they're afraid. Their government, and, by extension, the American Right, both strive to maintain the "us or them" mentality.

I can't say I don't love Israelis. But I'll be damned if anyone tells me the Palestinians are the enemies. I'm born Jewish, and I fell in love with the Israeli landscape and people. I like the citizenship, because, it's a nicer country, with a lot of socialistic attitudes. But, the Palestinians are my brothers. The Israeli left still has a shot of hope. Socialism will unite our peoples. Community will unite our peoples. Zionism, Islamism, Judeo-Fascism....those won't.

The X-ians want the end of the world, literally, from Israel.
They are the enemies of the Middle East.

The Israelis and the Palestinians, hell, the world, need to realize the enemies are not any color or nationality. The enemy is a class with a siege mentality; and its tools of control, namely, religion.

[praxis1966]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 09:50 am

Munib A. Younan, bishop of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Jordan (and Palestine), says Christian Zionism is heresy and misinterprets Christ and the gospel.

In an interview with a Danish newspaper, Younan said Christian Zionism promotes Christ not as Savior but as a military general, readying his forces for a huge battle, Armageddon. "The true Christ is the Christ of the cross and the open tomb, bringing hope, peace, reconciliation and new life," he said.

Christian Zionists pretend to love the Jewish people, Younan said, but are actually anti-Jewish in their teachings. "The Jewish people are simply characters in the Christian Zionist heresy and in the so-called final battle," he said. "[This teaching says] two-thirds of the Jewish people will be destroyed because they don't believe in Christ, while the other one-third will be converted to Christ.

"Christian Zionism is anti-peace and anti-reconciliation. The teachings are racist, calling for the transfer of Palestinians out of this land."

Adherents to Christian Zionism can be found in every church body, including Lutheran, Younan says. His hope is to alert all Christians everywhere to its dangers and false teachings.
Maybe I'm missing something, but it looks like that quote just reiterated what I was trying to say and then expounded upon it. Essentially I don't see any disagreement.

From freakazoid's post:


Do you know what a prophecy is? It is telling what will happen, whether it is good or bad. So just because it is saying what will happen doesn't mean that we should support it. So does that mean that we also support the desecration of the temple, because since that is in the prophecy it must mean that we support it.

Uh, yeah, I know what prophecy is and there's no need for the condescention. No wonder you got restricted. And no, you don't have to support the desecration of the Temple of the Mount, but it's a necessary element that directly precedes the Second Coming, Armegeddon, and therefore, the Rapture (the last of which you people seem to be all too excited to see happen). So, in other words, in a round about way, you do, or at the very least should, support the annihilation of the majority of the Jews (and by extension the Muslims, as in this case they are interpreted as being 'the army of Satan').

At any rate, if you don't believe or support the teachings of the Bible, you can hardly call yourself a Christian. This, freakazoid, is exactly what you're doing. In essence, you're taking issue with Bible which makes you a pretty poor excuse for a Christian.


Why don't you try reading the teachings of Jesus and then try to keep telling yourself that Christianity is a homicidal and sociopathic religion.

Uh, I've been told repeatedly that to be a Christian you need to follow not only the teachings of Jesus but the teachings of the New Testament in general (by priests, preachers, and pastors, no less). All of these things are in the New Testament (Romans, Matthew, Daniel, and Revelations all discuss them). So why don't actually try reading your own holy book a little better before you try debating me on this subject.

Sucks when an agnostic who was raised Ruhani Satsang knows more about your religion than you do, doesn't it?

[RedCommieBear]

Originally posted by praxis1966+--> (praxis1966) Maybe I'm missing something, but it looks like that quote just reiterated what I was trying to say and then expounded upon it. Essentially I don't see any disagreement.[/b]

Well, I guess it was in response to this part:


praxis1966
Uh, if you don't support Israel you can hardly call yourself a Christian.

I was just pointing out that a church-leader featured in a pretty prominent church journal is saying pretty much the same thing what we've been saying. So, yeah, I agree with you 100% about the fundamentalists seeing the Israel-Palestinian conflict as nothing but a pawn in their game of armageddon.

[Dean]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 12:04 pm
However, Christians are an exception. A Catholic priest who had Jewish parents and had heroically saved hundreds of Jews from Nazis was denied citizenship by the Israeli Supreme Court because if you believe in Jesus you cannot be a Jew.
So are Palestinians. Palestinian and Jewish blood is very close, considering that Arabs and Jews have lived in the region side by side, peacefully, for hundreds of years. But when they had to take their home to make way for an imperialist power, their ties with Judaism - and their right to live in their homeland, as supported by the UN declaration of human rights - go out the window.

The situation in Israel is sick and racist; anybody who makes political judgement on a population based on biblical statements is out of their mind.

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by Dean+August 01, 2007 03:49 pm--> (Dean @ August 01, 2007 03:49 pm)
[email protected] 30, 2007 12:04 pm
However, Christians are an exception. A Catholic priest who had Jewish parents and had heroically saved hundreds of Jews from Nazis was denied citizenship by the Israeli Supreme Court because if you believe in Jesus you cannot be a Jew.
So are Palestinians. Palestinian and Jewish blood is very close, considering that Arabs and Jews have lived in the region side by side, peacefully, for hundreds of years. But when they had to take their home to make way for an imperialist power, their ties with Judaism - and their right to live in their homeland, as supported by the UN declaration of human rights - go out the window.

The situation in Israel is sick and racist; anybody who makes political judgement on a population based on biblical statements is out of their mind. [/b]
Quoted for truth. I wish Zionists got that fact through their heads.

[freakazoid]

Uh, yeah, I know what prophecy is and there's no need for the condescention. No wonder you got restricted.

There wasn't any intended. You was just making the connection that because the Bible says that it will happen, that means that all Christians must support it. I am saying that you are wrong in this interpretation. The Book of Revelation also says that Satan will be released for a while, does that mean that all Christians should be happy about this? No.


Uh, I've been told repeatedly that to be a Christian you need to follow not only the teachings of Jesus but the teachings of the New Testament in general

Yes, but it all needs to be taken in light of the teachings of Jesus.

Also, all of these things are to happen because we all fall short.

[RedCommieBear]

Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2007 03:27 am
The Book of Revelation also says that Satan will be released for a while, does that mean that all Christians should be happy about this? No.

Well, the fundamentalists who believe that Armageddon is coming soon sure seem happy about it. Not only are they happy, they are impatient and are going great lengths to make sure armageddon happens sooner! There are currently movements that are campaigning for the the Temple to be rebuilt. (http://www.williambowles.info/guests/evangelicals.html)

[freakazoid]

Well, the fundamentalists who believe that Armageddon is coming soon sure seem happy about it. Not only are they happy, they are impatient and are going great lengths to make sure armageddon happens sooner! There are currently movements that are campaigning for the the Temple to be rebuilt.

Armageddon itself, which means that Christ will return. Of course they are happy about that part. But that doesn't mean that you would be happy about what will happen in-between then. Although I will not deny that there are some who do subscribe to the belief that you are saying all believe. It just isn't all. And it is a sad thing, :(

[Dean]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 03:37 am
Quoted for truth. I wish Zionists got that fact through their heads.
Zionism itself isn't the problem.. it is militant Zionism that is at fault. Zionism is just a Jewish tradition of returning to the "homeland." Nothing wrong with that, and if they wanna do that, fine. It was the militant, racist Zionism that developed around the turn of the 20th century that helped create Israel as a Jewish state, etc...

It should be noted that the Zionist movements had lots of racist elements as early as 1923, when Erich Fromm, recently disillusioned with the movement, called them "no better than the swastika - bearers." But even Jews immigrating to Palestine at that time had elements of pacifism and an interest in peaceful co-existance with the population. It was the interests of large governments and corporations, some anti-semitic and some simply imperialist, that made the movement the disgusting perversion it is today.

Noam Chomsky, for instance, says he has no problem with Zionism, but he views zionism as the idea that Jews have the right to live in Palestine / Israel, not that they have the right to take other peoples' homes.

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by Dean+August 03, 2007 10:01 pm--> (Dean @ August 03, 2007 10:01 pm)
[email protected] 02, 2007 03:37 am
Quoted for truth. I wish Zionists got that fact through their heads.
Zionism itself isn't the problem.. it is militant Zionism that is at fault. Zionism is just a Jewish tradition of returning to the "homeland." Nothing wrong with that, and if they wanna do that, fine. It was the militant, racist Zionism that developed around the turn of the 20th century that helped create Israel as a Jewish state, etc...

It should be noted that the Zionist movements had lots of racist elements as early as 1923, when Erich Fromm, recently disillusioned with the movement, called them "no better than the swastika - bearers." But even Jews immigrating to Palestine at that time had elements of pacifism and an interest in peaceful co-existance with the population. It was the interests of large governments and corporations, some anti-semitic and some simply imperialist, that made the movement the disgusting perversion it is today.

Noam Chomsky, for instance, says he has no problem with Zionism, but he views zionism as the idea that Jews have the right to live in Palestine / Israel, not that they have the right to take other peoples' homes. [/b]
Again, agreed.

Simply, the term Zionism, as it's usually used here, is in reference to the militants.

I myself adore the Israeli people and don't see a problem with a Jewish homeland that gives right to return, etc... The Armenians do such things, as do other countries.


However, these countries don't oppress and deny national sovereignty to other peoples..

[Dean]

Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2007 10:27 pm
Again, agreed.

Simply, the term Zionism, as it's usually used here, is in reference to the militants.

I myself adore the Israeli people and don't see a problem with a Jewish homeland that gives right to return, etc... The Armenians do such things, as do other countries.


However, these countries don't oppress and deny national sovereignty to other peoples..
Just wanted to make sure :P some people have.. "interesting" ideas on the conflict, to say the least. We need look no further than the OI forum itself to see some pretty f*cked ideas.

[praxis1966]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 10:37 pm
Armageddon itself, which means that Christ will return. Of course they are happy about that part. But that doesn't mean that you would be happy about what will happen in-between then. Although I will not deny that there are some who do subscribe to the belief that you are saying all believe. It just isn't all. And it is a sad thing, :(
See, this is what I'm on about. You people can't even get your own mythology straight enough to have a real discussion about it. Jesus' return is not Armageddon. It's the Second Coming. Armageddon is the battle between the 'righteous' and the 'armies of Satan' (the latter usually interpretted as the Muslims). Get it right.

Anyway, supporting the reconstruction of the Temple of the Mount is functionally supporting Satan's desecration of it, Armageddon (in which millions, according to your own book, will be killed), Jesus' 1000 year reign, and the rapture. All of those are necessary elements for the 'believers' to go to Heaven. Saying you support the Temple's reconstruction, the Second Coming, and the Rapture but not all the other stuff is just bullshit. And I don't have to be a rancher to know bullshit when I see it.

I mean, it's a bit like saying you support the construction of nuclear weaponry but not the mass murder that occurs when you use it. One thing begets the next. Alas, I suppose it's the requisite logical gymnastics one must do in order to be counted amongst the 'faithful.'

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Originally posted by praxis1966+July 30, 2007 11:19 am--> (praxis1966 @ July 30, 2007 11:19 am)
All Christians support Israel? I believe that we are getting close to Armageddon but that doesn't mean that I support the war.

Uh, if you don't support Israel you can hardly call yourself a Christian. The Jews taking back the West Bank and the Gaza Strip is the stuff of Biblical prophecy. Therefore, to oppose Israel in it's conquest of the Palestinian is to oppose the teachings of your chosen religion. [/b]
Really? That's funny - I'm a Christian, I never supported Israel, and I've never heard that argument from any other Christians.

Which Biblical prophecies are you talking about, exactly? And, incidentally, where does the Bible hint that Christians even have the power to influence the End Times, let alone that they should do so?

Not that I believe we're getting anywhere near the Second Coming, but that's another issue.


Zecheriah 13:8 "In the whole land (Israel)," declares the Lord, "two-thirds will be struck down and perish; yet one third will be left in it."

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob."
I fail to see what any of this has to do with the current conflict in the Middle East, just as I fail to see why you are implying that whenever God predicts somthing will happen it means he likes the fact that it will happen.


praxis1966
Anyway, supporting the reconstruction of the Temple of the Mount is functionally supporting Satan's desecration of it, Armageddon (in which millions, according to your own book, will be killed), Jesus' 1000 year reign, and the rapture. All of those are necessary elements for the 'believers' to go to Heaven. Saying you support the Temple's reconstruction, the Second Coming, and the Rapture but not all the other stuff is just bullshit. And I don't have to be a rancher to know bullshit when I see it.

I mean, it's a bit like saying you support the construction of nuclear weaponry but not the mass murder that occurs when you use it. One thing begets the next. Alas, I suppose it's the requisite logical gymnastics one must do in order to be counted amongst the 'faithful.'
If something is inevitable, questions of "support" or "opposition" are rather moot, aren't they? I don't "support" the Second Coming in the sense that I want it to come sooner or faster. What will be, will be.

Christians believe that a number of things - some good, some evil - will happen at some point in the future. We have no reason to believe that we can influence the timing or outcome of those events, thus our attitude towards them is (or should be) one of neutral waiting.

I also disagree with your nuclear weapons comparison. A better comparison takes note of the fact that inevitable future events should generate the same kind of attitude as unchangeable past events. Do you "support" or "oppose" the 20th century? Do you "support" or "oppose" the Roman Empire?

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29, 2007 10:02 pm
According to "The God Who Wasn't There" about 44% of people believe the rapture is coming.
This merits a separate post: Don't forget to add IN THE UNITED STATES after the word "people" in statements like that.

I never even knew there was such a concept as "the rapture" before I came into contact with American Protestants. It's based on a rather unusual (in my view) interpretation of a couple of Pauline verses.

[RHIZOMES]

Originally posted by Edric O+August 06, 2007 10:21 pm--> (Edric O @ August 06, 2007 10:21 pm)
[email protected] 29, 2007 10:02 pm
According to "The God Who Wasn't There" about 44% of people believe the rapture is coming.
This merits a separate post: Don't forget to add IN THE UNITED STATES after the word "people" in statements like that.

I never even knew there was such a concept as "the rapture" before I came into contact with American Protestants. It's based on a rather unusual (in my view) interpretation of a couple of Pauline verses. [/b]
It's so sad when people think all Christians are like those wacko fundamentalist Protestant Christians and that Christianity is one large monolithic movement, and there aren't numerous interpretations of verses and beliefs.


It's the Second Coming. Armageddon is the battle between the 'righteous' and the 'armies of Satan' (the latter usually interpretted as the Muslims). Get it right.

support the annihilation of the majority of the Jews (and by extension the Muslims, as in this case they are interpreted as being 'the army of Satan').

Official Catholic dogma states that Muslims are going to heaven because they worship the same God as them. Wouldn't that interpretation exclude about half of the world's Christians?

[freakazoid]

I mean, it's a bit like saying you support the construction of nuclear weaponry but not the mass murder that occurs when you use it. One thing begets the next. Alas, I suppose it's the requisite logical gymnastics one must do in order to be counted amongst the 'faithful.'

Um.. No, this one thing doesn't beget another. Are you saying that if I own a rifle that it would beget mass murder?

[praxis1966]

Really? That's funny - I'm a Christian, I never supported Israel, and I've never heard that argument from any other Christians.

I guess you didn't bother to follow the link in the original post then. The video at the end of it, which was a whopping 10 minutes long thereby capable of keeping you awake all night, tends to disagree. Fact is, there are millions of people living in the U$ who think this way. Some of whom, including the current president, occupy the highest corridors of power here. Frankly, I'm inclined to believe that the U$ isn't peculiar in this aspect. Where there's smoke, there's fire, as the saying goes.


Which Biblical prophecies are you talking about, exactly?

The ones that discuss the 'End of Days.' Specifically, the ones found in Matthew, Daniel, Romans, and Revelations. I'm tired of looking up chapter and verse, so you're going to have to do that on your own. Anyway, if you still don't know what I'm talking about, perhaps you should consult a priest. He's the one with the theology degree, and he only had to read just that one book to get it. I'm fairly certain that he'd be pretty well versed, no pun intended, as a result.


And, incidentally, where does the Bible hint that Christians even have the power to influence the End Times, let alone that they should do so?

Where does it say they can't or shouldn't?


I fail to see what any of this has to do with the current conflict in the Middle East...

Maybe you don't see the connection, but there are alot of other Christians who would disagree. It's that they believe that not only can they expodite the End Times via manipulation of this conflict, but that they should, and this makes them dangerous.


...just as I fail to see why you are implying that whenever God predicts somthing will happen it means he likes the fact that it will happen.

Being that neither one of us can prove the existance or nonexistance of this particular 'God,' I fail to see the logic in speculating at what might or mightn't be in said God's thinking. Anyway, I wasn't implying anything at all. I was was outright saying that Christians, leastways the ones in the video (which, again, you haven't watched), seem to be terribly excited about it. Big fuckin' difference, bro.


If something is inevitable, questions of "support" or "opposition" are rather moot, aren't they? I don't "support" the Second Coming in the sense that I want it to come sooner or faster. What will be, will be.

Christians believe that a number of things - some good, some evil - will happen at some point in the future. We have no reason to believe that we can influence the timing or outcome of those events, thus our attitude towards them is (or should be) one of neutral waiting.

I also disagree with your nuclear weapons comparison. A better comparison takes note of the fact that inevitable future events should generate the same kind of attitude as unchangeable past events. Do you "support" or "oppose" the 20th century? Do you "support" or "oppose" the Roman Empire?

Whatever. Everything above skirts the real issue, which is that a good number of Christians do support genocide as a means to the Rapture, in addition to thinking that they can and should do something about it. In this sense, I believe my analogy is perfectly valid.


It's so sad when people think all Christians are like those wacko fundamentalist Protestant Christians and that Christianity is one large monolithic movement, and there aren't numerous interpretations of verses and beliefs.

Yeah, it is. So cry me a fucking river then.


Official Catholic dogma states that Muslims are going to heaven because they worship the same God as them. Wouldn't that interpretation exclude about half of the world's Christians?

I may be talking out of turn here, but I'm pretty sure that alot of fundamentalist Muslims would disagree (about worshipping the same god, that is). You know, what with that whole jihad thing they've got going right now and all. Besides, I couldn't give a crap about Catholic dogma. What we're talking about is Biblical prophecy.


Um.. No, this one thing doesn't beget another. Are you saying that if I own a rifle that it would beget mass murder?

Not really a valid comparison. One rifle isn't a weapon of mass destruction. So no, that wasn't what I was saying. Not that I'd expect you to understand the point I was making. You can't tell the difference between the Second Coming and Armageddon, so I didn't really expect you to comprehend the purpose of analogy.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Originally posted by praxis1966+August 09, 2007 02:18 am--> (praxis1966 @ August 09, 2007 02:18 am) I guess you didn't bother to follow the link in the original post then. The video at the end of it, which was a whopping 10 minutes long thereby capable of keeping you awake all night, tends to disagree. Fact is, there are millions of people living in the U$ who think this way. Some of whom, including the current president, occupy the highest corridors of power here. Frankly, I'm inclined to believe that the U$ isn't peculiar in this aspect. Where there's smoke, there's fire, as the saying goes. [/b]
No, as a matter of fact I did not. There are somewhere around 1.6 billion self-identified Christians in the world. The views of a few hundred, or a few thousand, or even a few million of them are a mere drop in the ocean.

Anecdotal evidence - stuff like "look, a bunch of wackos" - does not impress me in the slightest. Come back with a statistical study based on a representative sample of the world's Christians and I might click on the link.

As for Bush holding such beliefs - maybe, but the bourgeoisie doesn't hold on to power by being apocalyptic and suicidal. Do not underestimate our enemies by imagining that they are stupid.


Originally posted by praxis1966+--> (praxis1966)The ones that discuss the 'End of Days.' Specifically, the ones found in Matthew, Daniel, Romans, and Revelations. I'm tired of looking up chapter and verse, so you're going to have to do that on your own. Anyway, if you still don't know what I'm talking about, perhaps you should consult a priest. He's the one with the theology degree, and he only had to read just that one book to get it. I'm fairly certain that he'd be pretty well versed, no pun intended, as a result.[/b]
Right, which is why priests and theologians have been arguing over the exact meaning of Biblical prophecies for about 2000 years (longer, if you count the Jewish tradition).

Point is, they could mean all sorts of different things and there's just no way to know for sure. Yes, we may be living in the End Times. Or we may not. I operate on the principle that the proximity of the End Times should not change the way we behave. After all, death is always just around the corner, and THAT doesn't normally influence our behaviour, even though it is a personal equivalent of the End Times. Jesus may return next week, but I may also die tomorrow in a random accident. Should I go around screaming "OMG OMG what if I get run over by a car??" Not at all. If it happens, it happens. If Jesus returns, he returns. Meanwhile we should get on with our lives.


Originally posted by praxis1966

And, incidentally, where does the Bible hint that Christians even have the power to influence the End Times, let alone that they should do so?
Where does it say they can't or shouldn't?
Burden of proof -> affirmative claim. You know the drill.


[email protected]
Maybe you don't see the connection, but there are alot of other Christians who would disagree. It's that they believe that not only can they expodite the End Times via manipulation of this conflict, but that they should, and this makes them dangerous.
As opposed to people who believe they can manipulate the conflict for other purposes - such as personal financial gain - who are somehow less dangerous?


praxis1966
Whatever. Everything above skirts the real issue, which is that a good number of Christians do support genocide as a means to the Rapture, in addition to thinking that they can and should do something about it. In this sense, I believe my analogy is perfectly valid.
How much is "a good number?" And how is this any different from perfectly secular and entirely stupid people who believe that using nuclear weapons in the Middle East is a good strategic move?

If a nuke was dropped every time someone said it should be, the Earth would be a dead wasteland by now.

Everything you said ignores the main point, which is that the bourgeoisie is neither stupid, nor fanatical, nor suicidal. The possibility of real crusades died with feudalism. We're in the age of imperialism now, motivated by purely economic interests.

* * *

General advice to everyone involved: Do not lose sight of the fact that ideology (including religious ideology) is part of the superstructure of society. Ideas are shaped by material conditions, not the other way around. Do not fall in the idealist trap of assuming that ideas can actually produce massive social or economic change by themselves. Religious views about an imminent battle of Armageddon in the Middle East are not the cause of imperialism; they are the result of imperialists seeking a higher justification for actions they have already taken on purely economic grounds.

[freakazoid]

Not really a valid comparison. One rifle isn't a weapon of mass destruction.

I didn't say a rifle was a weapon of mass destruction. I asked if it would lead to mass murder. Because it wouldn't. It is an inanimate object, just like a nuke. So simply owning a nuke wouldn't beget the other.


You can't tell the difference between the Second Coming and Armageddon, so I didn't really expect you to comprehend the purpose of analogy.

I can't?

[RHIZOMES]

I may be talking out of turn here, but I'm pretty sure that alot of fundamentalist Muslims would disagree (about worshipping the same god, that is). You know, what with that whole jihad thing they've got going right now and all. Besides, I couldn't give a crap about Catholic dogma. What we're talking about is Biblical prophecy.

And what you're talking about is Biblical interpretation. It does not say "There will be a religion called Islam which Satan will control". It just says "Army of Satan". It's an interpretation. I could interpret that as meaning Microsoft for example and it would have as much legitimacy (Maybe even more so) then the interpretation of wacko Pat Robertson-watching evangelical Christian nutjobs. My point is, Catholicism makes about half of the world's Christians. Official Catholic dogma conflicts with that, so doesn't that at least imply that your theory that because some wacko fundamentalist Baptists support Israel because of the end times, it means that all Christians support it? The Bible predicts the anti-Christ too. Does that mean Christians are for the Anti-Christ?

And I have never heard that thing about fundamentalist Muslims. The most that I've heard fellow Muslims say about Christians and Jews is that they're misguided. If they disagree, they're obviously not taking into account that Muhammad made Christians and Jews protected by law (And later on, other monotheistic religions that Muhammad hadn't encountered in his lifetime were added such as Zoroasterianism and certain monotheistic sects of Hinduism) and that Islam is kinda... a spin-off religion from the other two. It's like saying that a spin-off religion of Hinduism isn't worshipping the same Vishnu. And they're (And by they I mean "Al Qaeda" and not the rampant generalizations that you keep using) not waging jihad against America because they're Christians, they're waging Jihad against America because America continually been a tremendous dick to the Middle East for the past 50 years or so. Osama said in his own words this and pointed that if they were waging jihad against all "infidels", why he wasn't attacking say... "Sweden" for example.


Yeah, it is. So cry me a fucking river then.

Did you see the point of what I said at all?

[Demogorgon]

Originally posted by Edric [email protected] 09, 2007 01:12 am
General advice to everyone involved: Do not lose sight of the fact that ideology (including religious ideology) is part of the superstructure of society. Ideas are shaped by material conditions, not the other way around. Do not fall in the idealist trap of assuming that ideas can actually produce massive social or economic change by themselves. Religious views about an imminent battle of Armageddon in the Middle East are not the cause of imperialism; they are the result of imperialists seeking a higher justification for actions they have already taken on purely economic grounds.
I must absolutely agree with this. It amazes me to see, otherwise sensible people with a good understanding of Marxism lose their heads completely with religion and suddenly start presuming that simple religious ideas can motivate the world independently of material conditions.

[Dr Mindbender]

food for thought-

(Dont know if anyones brought this up but i cant be arsed looking to see) Some Palestinians are christian. They hardly support Israel.

[RHIZOMES]

Originally posted by Ulster [email protected] 09, 2007 01:52 pm
food for thought-

(Dont know if anyones brought this up but i cant be arsed looking to see) Some Palestinians are christian. They hardly support Israel.
The founder of the PFLP for example.

[Cooler Reds Will Prevail]

Originally posted by Edric O+August 06, 2007 09:59 pm--> (Edric O @ August 06, 2007 09:59 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 11:19 am

All Christians support Israel? I believe that we are getting close to Armageddon but that doesn't mean that I support the war.

Uh, if you don't support Israel you can hardly call yourself a Christian. The Jews taking back the West Bank and the Gaza Strip is the stuff of Biblical prophecy. Therefore, to oppose Israel in it's conquest of the Palestinian is to oppose the teachings of your chosen religion.
Really? That's funny - I'm a Christian, I never supported Israel, and I've never heard that argument from any other Christians.

Which Biblical prophecies are you talking about, exactly? And, incidentally, where does the Bible hint that Christians even have the power to influence the End Times, let alone that they should do so?

Not that I believe we're getting anywhere near the Second Coming, but that's another issue.


Zecheriah 13:8 "In the whole land (Israel)," declares the Lord, "two-thirds will be struck down and perish; yet one third will be left in it."

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob."
I fail to see what any of this has to do with the current conflict in the Middle East, just as I fail to see why you are implying that whenever God predicts somthing will happen it means he likes the fact that it will happen.


praxis1966
Anyway, supporting the reconstruction of the Temple of the Mount is functionally supporting Satan's desecration of it, Armageddon (in which millions, according to your own book, will be killed), Jesus' 1000 year reign, and the rapture. All of those are necessary elements for the 'believers' to go to Heaven. Saying you support the Temple's reconstruction, the Second Coming, and the Rapture but not all the other stuff is just bullshit. And I don't have to be a rancher to know bullshit when I see it.

I mean, it's a bit like saying you support the construction of nuclear weaponry but not the mass murder that occurs when you use it. One thing begets the next. Alas, I suppose it's the requisite logical gymnastics one must do in order to be counted amongst the 'faithful.'
If something is inevitable, questions of "support" or "opposition" are rather moot, aren't they? I don't "support" the Second Coming in the sense that I want it to come sooner or faster. What will be, will be.

Christians believe that a number of things - some good, some evil - will happen at some point in the future. We have no reason to believe that we can influence the timing or outcome of those events, thus our attitude towards them is (or should be) one of neutral waiting.

I also disagree with your nuclear weapons comparison. A better comparison takes note of the fact that inevitable future events should generate the same kind of attitude as unchangeable past events. Do you "support" or "oppose" the 20th century? Do you "support" or "oppose" the Roman Empire?[/b]
This brings up an interesting point... If the "Second Coming" is inevitable, and it will be preceded by certain actions and events such as the reconstruction of the Temple Mount, this would seem to suggest both a lack of free will among humans and the actions of a malevolent deity, starkly contrasted with the all loving God that Christians seem to put forward when it's convenient. If we have no ability to stop it from happening, and one is faithful in the Bible, then God must be responsible. Or if Satan is responsible, then God is obviously not powerful enough to stop him.

But you're right... It's not so much a matter of support, more so a matter of acceptance. At the very least, Christians accept and, in believing the Bible, embrace the fact that their god has premeditated the slaughter of 2/3 of the world's Jewish population and forced conversion of the other 1/3. However, it is support to an extent. By believing in the infallibility of God and the eventual Second Coming, you, by default, support these events. If God planned them, and God is perfect in your eyes, how can you be against them and still be a Christian?

As much as I prefer moderate Christians on a personal level, they are not real Christians. If you do not accept the entire Bible, word for word, as the divine proclamation of God, then you are not a true follower. This isn't like communism, where I can disagree with parts of the Manifesto and still be able to associate myself with the movement. This is the supposed infallible word of God. All the talk about "it's meant to be a metaphor" and "you're not supposed to take it literally" is bullshit. You ARE meant to take it literally, but religious moderates are just people with an ounce of reason, incapable of rationalizing the more ludicrous elements of their religion but still holding on to the vestiges of their decadent faith. Of course, certain vague parts require slight interpretation, but when the Bible says that 2/3 of the Jews are getting wiped out, that isn't a metaphor for them needing to accept Christ as their savior in order to live a more fulfilling life, it means "God is going to kill or allow the death of 2/3 of the Jews for not accepting Jesus". Plain and simple.

But even the examples you gave were not inevitable. There were material conditions that led to the rise and fall of the Roman Empire, it didn't just arise out of divine prophecy. Even the 20th century existed for human civilization because we didn't have the ability or the will to all kill each other by 1899. This prophecy is saying that this will happen, regardless of what else goes on in the meantime.

[Le Libérer]

Theres a huge difference between Orthodox Christian and Evangelical Christian interpretation of "The Second Coming".

At the turn of the 20 century, the Dispensationalists movement in the U$ took on a prophecy of a young woman named Margaret Macdonald. The teaching of a secret pretribulation rapture is a doctrine that never existed before 1830. John Darby, who was the leader of the Brethren movement and the “father of modern Dispensationalism,” took Margaret Macdonald’s new teaching on the rapture, made some changes (she taught a partial rapture of believers while he taught that all believers would be raptured) and incorporated it into his Dispensational understanding of Scripture and prophecy. The person most responsible for the rather widespread acceptance of Pretribulationalism and Dispensationalism among Evangelicals is Scofield. He published his Scofield Reference Bible in 1909. This Bible,containing the doctrines of Darby in its notes, became very popular in Fundamentalist circles. In the minds of many a Bible teacher, fundamentalist pastor and multitudes of professing Christians, Scofield’s notes were practically equated with the word of God itself. If a person did not adhere to the Dispensational, Pretribulational scheme he or she would almost automatically be labeled a modernist. Fundalmentalism in any religion is always extreme, but America took this doctrine as if it was in the Bible, which it isnt. Orthodox. Christians believe the prophicy of Revelation has already happened, during the desruction of Rome.

Why would these Christians uphold a doctrine that is clearly not in the Bible? Especially after the forefathers and settlers left Europe to escape forced Christian views, to worship the way they desired to?

Lets face it, Christians are looking pretty foolish twidling their thumbs waiting on Christs return. Where is he? DO they feel as foolish as they look? Why not help push this second coming along, by giving Christ a hand, and forcing these prophecies to happen. How to do that? Christian Zionism. I think it’s cynical and dangerous for Jews to align themselves with Christian Zionists. And those who have reflect a level of desperation that I think is really troubling. at the least. Plus war is profitable whether it be in Isreal or Iraq. Thus the Christian Rights complete support of Bush's war.

Saying all that, I laugh at the whole Rapture theory, they have set it up where Christians will be caught up 7 years before Christs real return , thru the real tribulation where if you become Christian during that time, you then will have to suffer and die to get to go to heaven. Its the whole fire and brimstone, fear tactic. After all, its alot easier to get someone to convert out of fear than out of love.

I was raised fundalmental Baptist. I know this stuff. And I'm still recovering from it.

[Cooler Reds Will Prevail]

Good to know Debora, thank you for the insight. I wasn't aware. You were raised Baptist? That's rough, I don't feel so bad for having been raied Catholic now lmao.