Question

[RHIZOMES]

Note - don't put this in Opposing Idealogies, because I find communism very interesting, BUT:

I've noticed some communists here say that all the wages should be equal.

if so, what is the incentive to work?

And if we go the other communist's direction (wages depending on job) wouldn't that create some sort of class system?

And if there's no money, what's the incentive to work?

Humans are inherently selfish imho, the only reason capitalism has lasted this long is because how the working class feels if they work more and harder, then they'll get richer and then they'll be able to enjoy themselves.

What is the solution for this problem, is there such a problem?

[RedKnight]

Once we reach the communist stage of historical developement, there will be no wages or prices. Under socialism however, there will be differences in income. they will just be more equitable than they are now. Therefore the the gap between the rich and the poor will be no more. If anyone ever tells you that in a socialist republic everyone is paid the same, they are ignorant of reality.

[RHIZOMES]

Yes, but once they're in a communist state and there's no money, why would they work? Some will love to work but there will be a lot of people that would just be lazy imho.

[Kropotkin Has a Posse]

Communist state is a contradiction, said the anarchist. When you have a centralised means of power, there is no equality. Note that anarchists reject the idea of a transitory phase of socialism, as well.

Some people, as you say, propose wages according to how much work you do, in other words based on effort. But the fact of the matter is that work is a social thing, nobody can claim to be solely responsible for any work done because they depended upon the assistance of other people in order to do it. And consider- for all the days that one works hard at a job, are there not many other instances when a person does no work at all? That would seem to balance out so that renumerating according to labour seems a bit strange. Also, it has the less abstract risk of creating a new class system.

On the old question of work, the idea is that the most degrading of jobs be revolutionised either by having them become mechanised, reformed such that conditions and hours are more tolerable, shared by everyone in turn, or just flat out not done at all if it is work that would have only existed under capitalism, to make a profit.

The other work would get done because, well, what happens if it isn't? Disaster, famine, want- things nobody desires. It's a necessity. Work isn't something to be glorified or sanctified as the truest expression of humanity, as some people have tried to put it, it's just something people have to do in order to be able to do the things that really allow for the truest expression of humanity.

[RHIZOMES]

Very good point!

So they'd work for fear of society collapsing rather then for fear of having no money?

I can picture that.

[Hiero]

I don't think that is right at all.

Under capitalism, "rewards" such as wages and salary are individual. Under communism they are collective. People will work because people pefer a "rich" society compared to a poor society.

Take a basic example like building a bridge to a new town. People will work for the reason they want a bridge, to bring food to the town, to leave town to access services etc. The goals are collective, so are the failures. If they don't build the bridge, life will be harder for the people in the town.

[RHIZOMES]

A friend of mine is arguing with me, he is saying that people are inherently selfish and will just leach off the allocated resource for them, etc. What are some good rebuttals for this?

[Janus]

Most of these questions have been addressed here:
High school commie's guide (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=25500)


What are some good rebuttals for this?
human nature (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=57266&hl=+human++nature)
human nature (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=56239&hl=+human++nature)
what is human nature? (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=67265&st=0)
human nature (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=68464)

[redflag32]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28, 2007 12:53 pm
A friend of mine is arguing with me, he is saying that people are inherently selfish and will just leach off the allocated resource for them, etc. What are some good rebuttals for this?
If your friend bothered to study social history he/she would realise this belief is flawed. Man once lived in a state of "primitive communism" where communities worked togeter for the common good. Humans have the ability to be selfish aswell as selfless. The system we live under needs us to be selfish in order for it to survive and we need to be selfish in order to live aswell, why not create a system which brings out the community spirit instead of the greedy spirit in us?

[RGacky3]

Lazyness in a Capitalist Society is not a good guage of human nature, I'll use myself as an example, I work for a wage, meaning pretty much everything I produce has nothing to do with me, I don't own it, its not attributed to me, I don't benefit at all from it, what I do I just do because I get a wage which helps me fill up my tank and my belly for a couple more weeks, now in the morning if someone told me "Your Boss died, and you don't have to work but you'll still get your pay for another couple months" Would I go to work? Hell no, sometimes I'd do anything to get out of work and just hang around and relax, does that make me Lazy? Perhaps, but put me in an enviroment where my work is Meaningful, I benefit directly from it, its not work that someone else gets ownership and credit for, I can have pride in my work, its not something I"m getting paid for, rather its something that benefits me and my neighbors directly, thats a different story.

I think Marx's analysis of the Nature of man connected to his labor is very accurate, man has a direct connection with what he makes, Man is creating animal, and its part of his nature to create and produce and contribute, so when you take that away from a man in the sense of wage labor, when a person stops being a producer and becomes mearly a cog in a machine he looses that part of him, and work no longer fulfills his human need, so its very easy to become 'Lazy'.

But I challenge you to find anyone that would not willingly work in a communist situation, and what I mean by communist situation is a situation where everything is communal, work is'nt forced and the work benefits the worker and his community directly, rather than a seperate class.

Saying Greed and selfishness is innate in humans, is like looking at Nazi Germany and saying anti-semitism is innate in Germans, its not, our enviroment can change us, and when our enviroment is not natural, humans will not behave naturally, even though they still try too, (look at how many people enjoy gardening for for its own sake, they build things as hobbies just to build them, they do community service just for its own sake, they form Unions and Community groups rather than do things for their own ambition, that says a lot for those things to happen in a society that only rewards ambition and selfishness.)