We CANNOT use the name of Marx - If we are to revolutionize

[anti machine]

The name of Marx and that of communism has been so bloodied and disgraced since the early 1930's that it would be impossible to propose a Marxist revolution. The masses would retort that "it's been tried already, and it failed miserably." I suppose that a manifesto for the new generation of Marxists would have to be drafted and made to appear absolutely unsimilar to the doctrine of scientific communism. Castro came to power only because he kept his tenets a secret throughout the whole of the revolution. Had he proclaimed a communist, Cuba would have most likely become a U.S. colony and the guerrillas would have met the brutality of American militarism.

[redstar2000]

Another thread in the continuing campaign to get us to "re-brand" ourselves and construct a "new image".

The first problem in your argument, anti machine, is how do you explain us? If "Marx" and "communism" are such "fearful demons", how is it that at this very moment all over the world people are deciding to call themselves communists?

Only a few, yes, I know, only a few. But, after a long decline, the numbers are inching upwards again, are they not?

I do think there's a psychological mechanism at work here. When people approach the point of being really "fed up" with capitalism, they are not looking for a "harmless alternative". They want an ideological "nuke"...which means communism or anarchism or both.

Those names symbolize total and permanent opposition to the monster in which we live.

And Marx--or, I should say, "Marx"--is the "devil" incarnate. Once you say or even hint that "Marx was right"...you are confirmed in the "sin" of revolutionary opposition to capitalism.

That "scares" people. It should.

Serious opposition to capitalism up to and including communist revolution "is not a dinner party" (as Mao famously put it). It's dangerous.

How in the world could you ever rely on someone to stand with you in opposition to the most powerful ruling class in the history of this planet...if they were "terrified" by the very name of "Marx" or "communism"?

A couple of minor points: "re-branding" ourselves would not fool the capitalist class for a "New York minute". They would be red-baiting us with our "new name" before the ink was dry on our "new manifesto".

Fidel did not "hide" his ideas; the opposition of U.S. imperialism to the seizure and re-distribution of American-owned plantations "shoved" Fidel onto the road to communism. (I'm sure Che was by his side saying, "see, Fidel, I told you this would happen." Being a Marxist, Che knew.)

At this very moment, U.S. imperialism is "shoving" Venezuela's Chavez onto the road to communism. I hope there are a few "che-types" present to advise Chavez on what to expect next.

:cool:

[Sensitive]

HEY, we could settle for a few minor reforms and call ourselves GREEN instead of RED! Oh wait... =P

[anti machine]

redstar, I understand and appreciate your counter-argument. But, using Cuba as an example, the bearded revolutionaries were not knowledgable that they were fighting for an even psuedo-communist cause. And Fidel even espoused that he was "and always will be a Marxist-Leninist". One cannot hold the U.S. actions post-1959 as the trigger to Fidel's "conversion" to communism.

That aside, I was speaking from an American perspective. Americans are the epitome of contented brainwashing. They don't vote because they don't CARE. They don't consider that their vote doesn't matter-they are far too simple to ponder such things. They are THE most apathetic people on the globe. And these are the same masses who aren't supposed to be scared of the word communism? It is a scary word, and America is too scared of change of any sort, let alone a concept that is outlined as evil by their leaders.

How do we reach THESE people? How do we make THESE people care, make them wake up? Not with anger. They'll simply shut us out. We have got to appeal to their values and emotions somehow, and not with a system that has been tried before (or at least not with its name) They don't understand the concept of trial and error.

I agree that this is no dinner party. But failure would be imminent if those few of us rose up with arms and declared a communist revolution. We have to infiltrate their minds instead of barraging them. Once support has been obtained, we can begin to use words such as communism.

The longer we continue to brand ourselves as violence-prone Marxists, we will never attain our goals. We will resolve to chatting in forums, arguing over how to instigate revolution and never taking action.

[Sensitive]

Quote: from anti machine on 11:42 pm on May 1, 2003

That aside, I was speaking from an American perspective. Americans are the epitome of contented brainwashing. They don't vote because they don't CARE. They don't consider that their vote doesn't matter-they are far too simple to ponder such things. They are THE most apathetic people on the globe. And these are the same masses who aren't supposed to be scared of the word communism? It is a scary word, and America is too scared of change of any sort, let alone a concept that is outlined as evil by their leaders.

How do we reach THESE people? How do we make THESE people care, make them wake up? Not with anger. They'll simply shut us out. We have got to appeal to their values and emotions somehow, and not with a system that has been tried before (or at least not with its name) They don't understand the concept of trial and error. Obviously it is no use wasting time trying to educate the Rush Limbaugh style fascists. We convert the "liberals" into revolutionaries. And this can not be accomplished by hiding the greatest thinker in the history of mankind (Karl Marx)! Most people have never even read the Manifesto, not to mention the "New Testament" of Marxism (Lenin and Trotsky). We have to make the Red Flag fly in people's hearts and minds again. We need to build a large Marxist media outlet (both online and in newspaper form) to help educate the masses. And then we can build a mass socialist party and simply seize power. Pessimism is counterrevolutionary propaganda! We will be victorious!

http://www.nebraskaatheists.org/flag.gif

[Rebelde para Siempre]

anti-machine is right. Even the anti-war movement has lost credibility.

[redstar2000]

Well, anti machine, you're now raising the matter from a somewhat different point of view, a specifically American perspective.

Is it possible in the foreseeable future to win a substantial number of American workers to communist ideas?

I'm sorry to say that I don't think so...until U.S. imperialism suffers a series of catastrophic defeats.

It sounds harsh to put it that way, I know. But the "heart of the empire" really is different from other places.

As long as the empire is successful, American workers will share in the "triumphs", both material and psychological. Domestically, class struggle will continue and, here and there, small numbers of workers and radical academics may be won over to Marxism.

But it's difficult for me to see, under the most optimistic possible circumstances, more than 5 per cent of the American working class becoming openly communist...until the empire falters. Most likely, a lot less than 5 per cent.

So when young American communists ask me "what is to be done?"...my answer is emigrate. Get your butt out of here and go someplace where you can accomplish something useful. Do not break your head (and your heart) trying to storm a fortress with your bare hands. It will take a huge effort by the people of the whole world to undermine that fortress...you're not going to do it from within.

Still, if you must remain, what have you to lose by being openly communist? No amount of "spin" or "image creation" is going to change the fact that living in a victorious empire is "sweet"...and that appeals to justice or equality or even bourgeois civil liberties will mostly fall on deaf ears. Most Americans are utterly indifferent to that sort of thing; they care a lot more about the price of gasoline, professional football, and the latest "rapture" novel.

If it makes you or others feel "clever" by hiding your real views beneath a smokescreen of harmless-sounding rhetoric, then, of course, go ahead and give it a try. It will make no historical difference one way or another...as, indeed, not much of anything American lefties might do will make any difference for a long time to come.

Except for those American lefties who move to western Europe or possibly a couple of the Latin American countries. They can make a difference there by being open communists; here, I don't think it will matter all that much one way or the other.

Sorry to be the bringer of bad news.

:cool:

PS: Fidel may have claimed to "have always been" a "Marxist-Leninist"...but I don't believe that for a second. If you read every line of History Will Absolve Me (1953), I'm pretty sure that you won't find anything that even suggests a Marxist outlook.

Of course, we can't see inside people's heads, and it's always possible that Fidel was the most diabolically clever liar in all of recorded history. But I really don't think that was the case. :cheesy:

[ComradeJunichi]

I oppose any form of name-changing, rebranding, and revisionism. A new generation of Marxists? Marxists are Marxists, and there isn't much to rewrite for the Manifesto. What does the manifesto have to do with the "bloodied and disgraced name of Marxism"?

I agree with pretty much everything that Redstar has said. There's not reason to change our name and as you suggest revisionize Marxism.

[Sensitive]

Well, I do agree with one of redstar2000's points - that we should not expect a quick victory, but we should not become pessimistic either. Pessimism leads to disillusion; disillusion leads to indifference; indifference leads to a weak mind and weak minds are easily brainwashed by fascists like Rush Limbaugh!

[Nick Yves]

Hm. I can see where the idea is coming from- everytime people here communism (in the states) they think ''EVIL! DICTATOR!!''. Changing its name would be a good thing and a bad thing...if anyone did bother to though and others were in favor, i think Equalityism would be a good name. People dont seem to get the communism broken down is common, or commUNITY...

[Dirty Commie]

I agree with redstar and junichi, I think that educating people about Marxist ideas is a far greater plan than changing our name.

[Sandanista]

Hear! Hear!

To rebrand and repackage is a very capitalist idea, if people dont accept us at face value then its up to us to change their minds.

However most people have never heard of Marxism so maybe even changin our movement to the marxist movement may attract some more "user-friendly" interest.

[the SovieT]

i see revisionism as reached almost every levels now...

i wil not allow the changing of entire theory and struggle just becuase some of its militants made mistakes or were pseudo-communists... and yet have you ever stoped to think that even before marxism was every aplied it was aredy insuted and even feared? why? becuase of the bourgeouse propaganda, becuase of the west ruing class lies and propaganda that fill your hears of how the commies are bad and eat litle children... communism´s bad name came even when this was only a utopic theory ong before marx...it is feared and hated because it is popular and it jeopardises the ruling classes power...

now changing what as been the struggle and only hope of the people is plain stupid..

even if you do change the international movements name its fame would be the same...

because we are feared for our popuar strenght... not for the errors of the past...


http://www.agitprop.org.au/political_art/images/cpasi10.800.jpg[/b]

[Comrade Gorley]

I actually agree. If you're very subtle you're far more likely to get people interested. I, for instance, almost act naive to communist facts (unless you ask me). However, I am nonetheless a strong Marxist-Leninist-Trotskyist who would love nothing better than to live in the utopia described by Sir Thomas More, Karl Marx, and Frederich Engels. Remember how Lenin pulled it off? He offered solutions to Russia's economic problems, and once he had the people's attention (and more or less support), he made his Marxism clear, and Russia gobbled Communism up. If you show up openly declaring your communism and your hatred of American patriotism and capitalism in general, you'll be dismissed as a commie stooge and probably a lunatic.

If a frog is put in boiling hot water, he will leap out immediatly, but if he is put in cold water which is slowly heated he will eventually die. Capitalism is that frog; the water is the truth of communism. We must get cappies interested and comfortable, than slowly make our support of communism clear, and perhaps once people realize our intent they will renounce that petty system of elaborate slavery.

[Blackberry]

Quote: from Rebelde para Siempre on 1:32 pm on May 2, 2003
anti-machine is right. Even the anti-war movement has lost credibility.


Since when did the anti-war movement lose credibility?, or, a more relevant question would be to who have we lost credibility to? The capitalists?

You might have been living in a shoe box in the last few months, but the world population is quite obviously opposed to the USA's so-called 'War on Terrorism' now, especially with what happened in the Iraq dilemma. The anti-war movement is extremely strong in Europe, where war has destroyed so many lives, and in South America, especially.

If the anti-war movement has lost credibility, then I'll hate to see what it will be like when some credibility is gained.

[Umoja]

I really don't see why rebranding is such a big deal. If the ideology is the same, then it's fine.

[ComradeJunichi]

Rebranding isn't the problem, but it's useless. You can change the name of Marxism and call it Happyism, what's the point? What the thread creator was talking about is revisionism, and that I have a problem with.

[革命者]

Quote: from anti machine on 11:33 pm on May 1, 2003
The name of Marx and that of communism has been so bloodied and disgraced since the early 1930's that it would be impossible to propose a Marxist revolution. The masses would retort that "it's been tried already, and it failed miserably." I suppose that a manifesto for the new generation of Marxists would have to be drafted and made to appear absolutely unsimilar to the doctrine of scientific communism. Castro came to power only because he kept his tenets a secret throughout the whole of the revolution. Had he proclaimed a communist, Cuba would have most likely become a U.S. colony and the guerrillas would have met the brutality of American militarism.
agree 100%

[the SovieT]

as i said its sad that revisionism as reached al levels now...

first they want to change our policys, then they want to abolish the dictatorship of the proletariat.. after it they creat a free market and fuck the rest of the goverment...
and now itsour name and flag that they want to change...
its sad...
really sad...

[Iepilei]

Personally, I think you guys are looking at the wrong concepts of what need changing.

Marx? The Red? This is our inspiration. We broke the Victorian methodolgy, our concepts destroyed the picture of the aristocracy - so now the rich are falling to more 'middle-class' methods to gain support.

The left are pushing the right into hiding every day. Right now, they're doing all they can to strike out before they burn out completely. Now is the time we should be more red than we ever have before.

[immortal211]

to stand for a revolution is to stand for Karl Marx who's ideas gave birth to Communism !

[Umoja]

Doesn't that make you a follower of Marx Immortal, and not a follower of Communism?