talking socialism with people who "lived under it"

[R_P_A_S]

Question for you guys here.

If you were to encounter a bitter angry person who lived under "Socialism" and due to his personal experience under that system. wether it been The Cuban one, ex Soviet Union or any other Eastern European style. He has developed a personal grudge against it. and does not believe in it like we do.

How would you tell this person. if he was willing to listen and talk to you about Socialism. that YOUR Socialism is not that he grew up under. and how would you tell them its different. or explain to them what was wrong with the model he lived under.

Thanks.

[PigmerikanMao]

Any attempts at communism have utterly failed producing instead a state capitalist dictatorship- so their feelings are well understood, but at the same time, they shouldn't give up hope entirely. Just explain, allow them to state their opinions. Some times you just have to listen to them and show that their suffering is understood and not ignored.

[sanpal]

Yes, to me, it's interesting to listen (not to talk because i have not enough time) with further comparing

[Black Cross]

Bog them down with big words and phrases until they are too confused to argue back, haha.

Seriously, though, you should definately be sympathetic, and empathetic, to what they have been through, since a lot of us have been through similar situations, and try to explain what you think went wrong with the system of socialism he/she was living under. Most of all, though, I think you need to relate to them, candidly, and try to get them to understand that a government that calls itself socialist, may not necissarily be socialist.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Most people (most, not all) I've talked to that lived in socialist and bureaucratic-socialist states, and there have been many, were fond of the "good old days."

That goes for Albanians, Yugoslavians (Serbian and Macedonian especially, not many Bosnians), Russians, Uzbeks, Chinese, Romanian, Belorussian, etc.

Now, the gusanos in Miami and Union City are another matter.. many/most of them never even actually lived in socialist Cuba, and are beyond rational discussion.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 26, 2007 08:15 pm
Most people (most, not all) I've talked to that lived in socialist and bureaucratic-socialist states, and there have been many, were fond of the "good old days."

That goes for Albanians, Yugoslavians (Serbian and Macedonian especially, not many Bosnians), Russians, Uzbeks, Chinese, Romanian, Belorussian, etc.

Now, the gusanos in Miami and Union City are another matter.. many/most of them never even actually lived in socialist Cuba, and are beyond rational discussion.
i'm yet to meet an eastern european that misses 'the good old days'
where do you meet these people?

[sanpal]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26, 2007 08:19 pm

i'm yet to meet an eastern european that misses 'the good old days'
where do you meet these people?
Well, You have just met him. What would you want to ask?

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

:lol:


where do you meet these people?

I have met them at swap meets, work (when I worked in a Coke Plant, and another time at a Pizza Shop), waiting for the Subway, at demonstrations, on the train, while canvassing or distributing lit, and other various places.

Of course, many would rather be here in the U.S. now; but ask them if their countries were better off before, or now, and see what they say.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

I talked loads to a Russian girl when i was at university, who, to the fury of our lecturers, spilt the beans on the collapse of the degenerated workers state in Russia.

She said that almost everyone (except the rich and the academics) wishes they still had the security of the soviet union.

On balance things are much worse for people in the former soviet union. They have a liberal democracy, where votes are openly bought, where candidates who stand are all very rich etc. The whole of the country looks like in one generation the population is going to decline significantly.

everybody knows capitalist Russia is a total failure.

watch this channel 4 film about the Russia of today.

Death of a nation (http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=9106762987895287402&q=marcel+Theroux&total=4&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0)

[Cheung Mo]

Originally posted by Marxist-[email protected] 26, 2007 08:11 pm
Bog them down with big words and phrases until they are too confused to argue back, haha.

Seriously, though, you should definately be sympathetic, and empathetic, to what they have been through, since a lot of us have been through similar situations, and try to explain what you think went wrong with the system of socialism he/she was living under. Most of all, though, I think you need to relate to them, candidly, and try to get them to understand that a government that calls itself socialist, may not necissarily be socialist.
Arguing that socialism is bad because of Stalin's atrocities in the Soviet Union makes about as much sense as arguing that socialism is bad because Venezuelan neoliberal tyrant Carlos Andre Perez was VP of the Socialist International.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by sanpal+July 26, 2007 08:37 pm--> (sanpal @ July 26, 2007 08:37 pm)
[email protected] 26, 2007 08:19 pm

i'm yet to meet an eastern european that misses 'the good old days'
where do you meet these people?
Well, You have just met him. What would you want to ask? [/b]
hmm. Hello
where did u grow up and how old are you?

[Janus]

He has developed a personal grudge against it. and does not believe in it like we do.

How would you tell this person. if he was willing to listen and talk to you about Socialism. that YOUR Socialism is not that he grew up under. and how would you tell them its different. or explain to them what was wrong with the model he lived under.
It really depends on the person's specific grievance with said state; whether it was a personal one (victim of various campaigns/policies) or whether they were economically/politically dissatisfied with it (ex-bourgeois,etc.). It's usually much easier to convince the former than the latter through an explanation of what socialism/communism really is and thus compare that with the system under which they lived under.

[midnight marauder]

It's usually much easier to convince the former than the latter through an explanation of what socialism/communism really is and thus compare that with the system under which they lived under.

I had a cigarette with a Lithuanian girl a few weeks back, and this was my first experience dealing with a person who had come from a family from a former communist state who didn't prefer the days of the Soviet Union. I think the deal was that her family was very wealthy and, much like the Cubans in Miami, had a lot to lose economically from such a situation. The question of communism came up naturally, and I think if there's success to be had in the situation (of course it depends entirely on the person and their background, being does afterall have a funny way of determining consciousness) it is in this method. She had grown up for the most part in the United States and in our public school system, so I also had a pretty worthwhile discussion with her about why it was in the best interest of the United States to demonize communism, and why it was the case that she had never really been exposed to a fair definition of what it actually means. I'm not sure how much of it got through to her, but I think I made enough of an impact to get her to question her preconcieved notions on what it means to live under socialism. As long as you're polite, patient, and above all understanding, conversations like that can be fun and intriguing for both parties.

And as long as a conversation is fun and intriguing, it isn't hard to get someoen to think critically about the subject. I really do think that's the best, all around approach: Queen Latifa isn't really a queen, America isn't really a democracy, and communist state xyz isn't indicative of what communism is or stands for.

[xskater11x]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29, 2007 01:22 am
I really do think that's the best, all around approach: Queen Latifa isn't really a queen, America isn't really a democracy, and communist state xyz isn't indicative of what communism is or stands for.
On that point, peoples opinions affect that way of viewing a conversation. Someone who grew up under the false communism of a state like the Soviet Union may very well accept and agree with the US' demonization of socialism, communism and all branches and sub-theories, just the same as someone who grew up in the United States more often then not, believes the US has a true democracy.

In the end, it all comes back to educating the masses, teaching someone who's views on the subject are off course the true nature of the theories and practices, or at least introducing them to alternate perspectives on communism then the state captialist dictatorship, or related governmental structure, that they had previously lived under that had the name glued to it.

[sanpal]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27, 2007 05:14 pm

hmm. Hello

Hello!


where did u grow up and how old are you?

I was born a year before Stalin's death and tomorrow (july 30) it'll be my birthday.
Till 20 i lived in Ivanovo (the former name was Ivanovo-Voznesensk and where the first workers' council appeared in 1905 y.)
After military service since 1974 i live in Moscow till now.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by sanpal+July 29, 2007 03:29 pm--> (sanpal @ July 29, 2007 03:29 pm)
[email protected] 27, 2007 05:14 pm

hmm. Hello

Hello!


where did u grow up and how old are you?

I was born a year before Stalin's death and tomorrow (july 30) it'll be my birthday.
Till 20 i lived in Ivanovo (the former name was Ivanovo-Voznesensk and where the first workers' council appeared in 1905 y.)
After military service since 1974 i live in Moscow till now. [/b]
so where do you live now?

[Janus]

He's stating that he's still living in Moscow which matches the info. provided in his profile. All in all, we only have a small handful of members from the former Soviet Union, the PRC, and some of the other self declared socialist states.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 02:06 am
He's stating that he's still living in Moscow which matches the info. provided in his profile. All in all, we only have a small handful of members from the former Soviet Union, the PRC, and some of the other self declared socialist states.
we need more people like him to talk and tell us how it was.

[BreadBros]

As others have said, different people will have different views. For example, I know a few people from Venezuela and Bolivia who are adamantly against Chavez and any notion of Bolivarianism. Not surprisingly, both are from very wealthy families whose opposition is based on self-interest and not an objective view of the economic changes.

At the same time, many people might for obvious reasons not miss the experience of living in one of the socialist states, all of which failed at achieving their ultimate goals. Economic shortages, a politically repressed atmosphere, etc. often occurred and are doubtful to be missed.

If you want advice, just be rational and honest....don't be either too aggressive/defensive, nor too capitulating. If you jump on someone for pointing out something bad in a former socialist state you are not only not helping the situation, but you are being a bit unrealistic and showing a lack of comprehension for history. At the same time, just because someone had a bad time doesn't mean that reflects objective reality. If someone lost part of their wealth or income due to the actions of a socialist state...well that might personally suck for them, but honestly the positive economic changes for the masses do outweigh that.

[manic expression]

There are a few things that need to be kept in mind: it's very likely that the individual lost quite a bit of money due to socialism; it is likely that they disagree with their neighbors and others who lived in the same society; it is clear that you are hearing one opinion of many. Listen to their experiences and talk to them, but don't expect to change their views.

For the record, practically every person I've talked to who lived in the USSR says that it is MUCH HARDER NOW (as in life in the Soviet Union was better than life now).