The Bahai religion

[RHIZOMES]

Could it be possible to be a Bahai and a Communist? Some of the Bahai's teachings are very Communistic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahai


The Bahá'í writings state that differences between various races, nations, and ethnic groups are either superficial (e.g. skin color) or the result of differences in background or "education".

"World order can be founded only on an unshakeable consciousness of the oneness of mankind, a spiritual truth which all the human sciences confirm. Anthropology, physiology, psychology, recognise only one human species, albeit infinitely varied in the secondary aspects of life. Recognition of this truth requires abandonment of prejudice -- prejudice of every kind -- race, class, colour, creed, nation, sex, degree of material civilization, everything which enables people to consider themselves superior to others."

The Universal House of Justice, 1985 Oct, The Promise of World Peace

"Throughout the animal kingdom we do not find the creatures separated because of colour. They recognise unity of species and oneness of kind. If we do not find colour distinction drawn in a kingdom of lower intelligence and reason, how can it be justified among human beings especially when we know that all have come from the same source and belong to the same household? In origin and intention of creation mankind is one. Distinctions of race and color have arisen afterward."

`Abdu'l-Bahá, Bahá'í World Faith - `Abdu'l-Bahá Section, p. 268

Bahais teach that all of humanity is one and that there is a "Progressive revelation" from God in which practices that made sense to humanity at the time are now irrelevant due to mankind's progress and that everyone has a different spiritual path. It certainly isn't used by the Bourgeoisie to keep the masses in line (And in a few countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia, Bahais are often persecuted by such religious institutions). A lot of it's teachings seem like the very thing the Bourgeoisie and the religious establishment would not want to be taught. Parents are often encouraged to tell their kids about the Bahai faith (And others) and choose it if they want to, which gets rid of the whole "indoctrinating children" thing a lot of atheists hate. Is this a case of religion being used positively?

[RedCommieBear]

Bahá'í Studies Publications, a Bahai group in Canada, published a book on the Bahai faith and Marxism, which is freely available here (http://bahai-library.org/books/marxism/). It was created by 6 different fellows.


Originally posted by Bahai and Marxism+--> (Bahai and Marxism)Assumptions about human nature lie at the root of all theories that argue forthe superiority of some form of social and political order. Liberal assumptions, which form the ideological underpinnings of capitalist society, are held by their exponents to be true reflections, or interpretations of, "reality." Liberal assumptions about human nature consider the individual as primarily selfish greedy, competitive; needing to be constrained from abusing ''freedom" and doing violence to others, etc. Conservative, elite theorists tend to view human beings as essentially irrational, sheep-like, apathetic, and so on....

The seventeenth century theorist Thomas Hobbes argued that in the natural condition of mankind, where there is no central authority to enforce order, life must be ''solitary, poore, nasty, brutish, and short." Hobbes assumed that humans have no desire to associate save for the necessities of market exchange government, etc.3 Without the iron rule of a strong (though preferably benevolent) leader, individuals will fall into a state of war of "every man against every man."4 The utilitarian theorists who succeeded Hobbes viewed the individual as essentially a utility-maximizer and an insatiable consumer.

These views are central to bourgeois economic theory, especially to the laissez-faire type preached by Milton Friedman and the Chicago school. In "Capitalism and Freedom", Friedman argues that "a free private enterprise exchange economy," or "competitive capitalism," is both a direct component of freedom and a necessary though not a sufficient condition of political freedom, which he defines as "the absence of coercion of a man by his fellow men."5

Again, we have the assumption that interaction with other people interferes with individual goals of acquisition, security, etc. Freedom is defined negatively--freedom of the individual from society. There is no recognition of the social nature and needs of human existence; of the social nature of production and of what is produced. This definition of "freedom," moreover, excludes the concepts of equity, and of social responsibility for those who cannot "compete" in the market.

Marxists reject this view of human nature and the "natural state" of human society. They argue that the liberal assumptions derive from, and seek to legitimize, the types of social relations that are specific to capitalist society. They do not amount, therefore, to "general,'' "universal" truths about human nature, but merely to a portrait of certain aspects of human behaviour that are typical of bourgeois society (e.g., possessive individualism and competitiveness).[/b]

From what I know about the Bahai faith, they also claim to uphold feminism and gender egalitarianism.


Bahai Faith and Marxism
How do Marxists explain the oppression of women in our society, and what do they think the role of women should be? It is interesting that, in writing about the nature of human relations in a Communist society, Marx drew a parallel with the nature of sexual relationships--as they might ideally be, i.e., based on equality and reciprocity rather than instrumentalism and oppression. He wrote:

The immediate, natural and necessary relation of human being to human being is also the relation of man to woman.... [I]n this relation it is... revealed... the extent to which human nature has become nature for man and to which nature has become human nature for him. From this relationship man's whole level of development can be assessed. It follows from the character of this relationship how far man has become, and has understood himself as, a species-being, a human being.15

In other words, the relations between men and women in a society are a telling measure of its development towards truly nonexploitative and "human" relations in general. Marx and Engels argued that in bourgeois society, the oppression of women--in fact the degradation of sexual relations in general--takes specific forms.

Engels argued that in the bourgeois family, the wife is an instrument of reproduction, bound by contractual obligations intended to secure the inheritance line of accumulated bourgeois property. He traces the patriarchal oppression of women to (i) the replacement of matriarchal and primitive communistic types of household structure by patriarchal structures, which accompanied the accumulation of wealth by individual males; and (ii) the destruction of small commodity production based on the household unit. This meant that, whereas formerly women had participated in all the productive activities necessary to reproduce the household, the expropriation of small holders, the impoverishment of artisans, brought about by the Industrial Revolution, created two spheres of labour: domestic (or private) and social (or wage) labour. As the means of subsistence increasingly assumed the form of the monetary wage, unpaid domestic labour was degraded to the status of domestic servitude.

When the factories of the Industrial Revolution began to swallow up the labour of working class women and children, Engels observed a phenomenon still typical of our own times. Despite their proletarianization, working class women were not relieved of their domestic burdens.l6 Engels concluded that women could not be emancipated until:

- they had won full equality with men before the law;
- the proletarianization of women had removed the economic bases of monogamous marriage and the patriarchal household;
- the care and education of children had become a social responsibility.

In a Communist society, therefore, sexual relations are an open question. Perhaps monogamous relationships will continue to form--indeed, to be more fulfilling than they are in Capitalist society. The main point is that the constraints on free will--especially for women--in determining their sexual and reproductive behaviour will be removed with the abolition of private property. [Note: by the abolition of private property, Marxists are referring to the means of production, not to personal property.]

However, in the practice of the Left, many Marxists have tended to assume that the abolition of private property alone will bring about the emancipation of women and have treated so-called women's issues as secondary to the "prior" struggle of the working class in the economic sphere. In opposition to this practice, feminists have argued that the abolition of private property is not enough. Some aspects of the oppression of women (i) predate capitalism, (ii) continue to exist in the so-called existing socialist countries, and within socialist movements; and (iii) originate in the reproductive function of women and in sexual politics.

Since I have not read the book, I cannot tell you whether it believes that Marxism and the Bahai faith are compatible. The book is 51 pages long, so roughly 1.5-3 hour read.

[CubaSocialista]

One of my closest friends is a Baha'i and a Marxist. She's in Haifa now. She's been to Cuba.

She said she doesn't know any Baha'i that aren't at least socialistic. The religion is more about channeling self, and God is a sort of pantheistic entity that encompasses all reality...if that was redundant I apologize.

It's a very progressive religion. Christian Fundies are terrified of debating it with Baha'is.

The Baha'is value science and reason as reality itself, and I've seen them destroy religious reactionaries in debates and arguments with ease. I envy them for that.

[RedAnarchist]

According to Bahaists in my city, the Bahais believe in the following -

"A world parliament should be created democratically to create just international laws"

"An international court is needed to ensure that governments obey the international law"

"An international police force is needed to maintain peace throughout the world"

"Dress should be modest"

"Alcohol is forbidden and so are drugs that alter or affect the mind"

"All believers should be chaste, and married couples absolutely faithful"

"The purpose of life is to know and to love God, and nearness to God is heaven"

http://www.prescap.co.uk/Faith%20Forum%20w.../baha'i.htm (http://www.prescap.co.uk/Faith%20Forum%20website%2016,3,05/baha'i.htm)

Also, its bad but not forbidden to be gay - it should be "sympathised with", according to this wikipedai page- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality...C3.A1.27.C3.ADs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith#Gay_Bah .C3.A1.27.C3.ADs)

[Marko]

Keep in mind that Baha'ism was popularized in the West and admired by a Fascist nobleman Arthur de Gobineau who developed the theory of "Aryan Master Race".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_de_Gobineau

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 09:56 pm
Keep in mind that Baha'ism was popularized in the West and admired by a Fascist nobleman Arthur de Gobineau who developed the theory of "Aryan Master Race".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_de_Gobineau
"To Bahá'ís, Gobineau is known as the person who obtained the only complete manuscript of the early history of the Bábí religious movement of Persia, written by Hâjji Mirza Jân of Kashan, who was put to death by the Persian authorities in c.1852. The manuscript now is in the Bibliothèque nationale at Paris."


This is his only relation to the religion. And it is not even to Bahai Faith, but to Babism, the sect from which Baha'u'llah and his followers would schism and form the religion.

However, there's little else he did with the Bahai's, and nothing is said of him admiring them.


The Baha'i faith is an international, multicultural faith. So I don't think he would've liked them much anyway, even though they came about after his death.

[Marko]

Originally posted by CubaSocialista+July 30, 2007 10:12 pm--> (CubaSocialista @ July 30, 2007 10:12 pm)
[email protected] 30, 2007 09:56 pm
Keep in mind that Baha'ism was popularized in the West and admired by a Fascist nobleman Arthur de Gobineau who developed the theory of "Aryan Master Race".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_de_Gobineau
"To Bahá'ís, Gobineau is known as the person who obtained the only complete manuscript of the early history of the Bábí religious movement of Persia, written by Hâjji Mirza Jân of Kashan, who was put to death by the Persian authorities in c.1852. The manuscript now is in the Bibliothèque nationale at Paris."


This is his only relation to the religion. And it is not even to Bahai Faith, but to Babism, the sect from which Baha'u'llah and his followers would schism and form the religion.

However, there's little else he did with the Bahai's, and nothing is said of him admiring them.


The Baha'i faith is an international, multicultural faith. So I don't think he would've liked them much anyway, even though they came about after his death. [/b]
No, Gobineau wrote a book about Baha'ism.

"It was the appearence of the book Les Religions et les Philosophies dans l'Asie Centrale (Paris, 1865) by Arthur, Comte de Gobineau (q.v.) which more than anything else served to bring the Bábí movement to the attention of the West. This book, together with Mirza Kazem-Beg's book, Bab i Babidui (St Petersburg, 1865), which also came out in French translation in the Journal Asiatique in 1866, gave rise to a large number of articles in many of the well-known magazines of Europe and North America (for a list of these, see BBR 23-26). So great was the coverage given to the new religion that, in 1871, the well-known writer and critic Matthew Arnold was able to say that Babism was a movement "of which most people in England have at least heard the name." (BBR 25)"
http://www.bahai-library.com/encyclopedia/bfwestac.html

[BurnTheOliveTree]

"An international police force is needed to maintain peace throughout the world"

"Dress should be modest"

"Alcohol is forbidden and so are drugs that alter or affect the mind"

"All believers should be chaste, and married couples absolutely faithful"

"The purpose of life is to know and to love God, and nearness to God is heaven"

http://www.prescap.co.uk/Faith%20Forum%20w.../baha'i.htm

Also, its bad but not forbidden to be gay - it should be "sympathised with"



Then they aren't leftists, they're reactionary fuckheads, surely. Sympathising with gays, honestly, I can almost smell the condescension. :angry:

-Alex

[Comrade_Scott]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 03:05 pm
According to Bahaists in my city, the Bahais believe in the following -

"A world parliament should be created democratically to create just international laws"

"An international court is needed to ensure that governments obey the international law"

"An international police force is needed to maintain peace throughout the world"

"Dress should be modest"

"Alcohol is forbidden and so are drugs that alter or affect the mind"

"All believers should be chaste, and married couples absolutely faithful"

"The purpose of life is to know and to love God, and nearness to God is heaven"

http://www.prescap.co.uk/Faith%20Forum%20w.../baha'i.htm (http://www.prescap.co.uk/Faith%20Forum%20website%2016,3,05/baha'i.htm)

Also, its bad but not forbidden to be gay - it should be "sympathised with", according to this wikipedai page- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality...C3.A1.27.C3.ADs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith#Gay_Bah .C3.A1.27.C3.ADs)
lol my father and stepmom are bahais no alcohol?? never heard that rule, i have heard alcohol should not be drunk in excess like water but thats it..... anyway its progressive(as far as religion goes) but i still wouldnt join

[Sickle of Justice]

i agree... they're one of the more progressive organized religions out there, but thats not saying much. my friend used to be bahai and she says its kinda one of the more "brainy" religions, spending time discussing whether they're actually right, and drawing from scientific sources instead of rejecting anything that isn't in line with their traditions, as many religions seem to do.

about the gay thing, yeah they're pretty much condescending assholes. it's something along the lines of "homosexuality isn't a sin as long as you never have sex. ever."

[Capital Punishment]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 05:05 pm
"The purpose of life is to know and to love God, and nearness to God is heaven"
No one has the right to tell anyone what their purpose in life is..

Just like every other religion

[Dean]

Originally posted by Capital Punishment+August 27, 2007 08:59 pm--> (Capital Punishment @ August 27, 2007 08:59 pm)
[email protected] 30, 2007 05:05 pm
"The purpose of life is to know and to love God, and nearness to God is heaven"
No one has the right to tell anyone what their purpose in life is..

Just like every other religion [/b]
No religion that isn't a strict material, humanist philosophy is going to coform to our ideas, even in general, of waht is right. That is my main problem with religion per se, but I think it's important to realize and look past this to see that in most cases, religion is hardly a stumbling block for social change. There are obvious ways in which it can be bad - strugglign against superstition, maybe fighting religious "law," that politics have attached to it, but I find that it is usually the society and not the logical outcome of believing in a specific religion that makes people believe in the more dangerous religious policies.

[Capital Punishment]

Originally posted by Dean+August 27, 2007 08:38 pm--> (Dean @ August 27, 2007 08:38 pm)
Originally posted by Capital [email protected] 27, 2007 08:59 pm

[email protected]uly 30, 2007 05:05 pm
"The purpose of life is to know and to love God, and nearness to God is heaven"
No one has the right to tell anyone what their purpose in life is..

Just like every other religion
No religion that isn't a strict material, humanist philosophy is going to coform to our ideas, even in general, of waht is right. That is my main problem with religion per se, but I think it's important to realize and look past this to see that in most cases, religion is hardly a stumbling block for social change. There are obvious ways in which it can be bad - strugglign against superstition, maybe fighting religious "law," that politics have attached to it, but I find that it is usually the society and not the logical outcome of believing in a specific religion that makes people believe in the more dangerous religious policies. [/b]
Oh I agree with you wholeheartedly. I have no problem with people having personal beliefs(as long as those beliefs are not being force fed to the rest of society). I have a problem with leftists wasting their time trying to find a religion that doesn't contradict with our views in at least one aspect.