Boys and Girls Schools

[Labor Shall Rule]

Are boys-only or girls-only schools discriminatory?

[NorthStarRepublicML]

I would say no they are not discriminatory in themselves .....

There may be differences in terms of the amount of resources (books, computers, teachers) allocated to boys and girls, this would be discriminatory.

but girls and boys are said to learn differently so i suppose specialized boys schools and girls schools would cater to their particular advantages ....

now there comes the obvious question as to where trans-gendered or persons of other wise non-specific gender would go to school .... i would imagine that these persons would also have rather specific learning needs, thus it might also be advantageous to allocate resources for a school for them too ....

however, this whole argument would be dependent on a true "separate but equal" system and there is considerable debate on if such a system is possible.

also .... the age or the academic level of the students would be a factor and a gender segregated system would not be necessary or positive across the board ...

[Raúl Duke]

I don't really know for sure....but IMO schools should be sexually intergrated because in the real world you will be working and interacting with both sexes and many social skills are learned in schools.

However, one claimed benefit of sexually segregated schools was that their students concentrate more on studies and do better.( <_< Life isn&#39;t all about working and studying....) I wonder what studies say about this though...


now there comes the obvious question as to where trans-gendered or persons of other wise non-specific gender would go to school

I heard there was a school that was for LGBTQ students. Its purpose was to give them an environment away from descrimination, unless I was informed wrong.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by RedDali+July 26, 2007 05:44 am--> (RedDali @ July 26, 2007 05:44 am) Are boys-only or girls-only schools discriminatory? [/b]
No, unless there&#39;s no alternative schools in a given area.


NorthStarRepublicML
now there comes the obvious question as to where trans-gendered or persons of other wise non-specific gender would go to school .... i would imagine that these persons would also have rather specific learning needs, thus it might also be advantageous to allocate resources for a school for them too ....

Trans and intersex kids should decide for themselves.

[apathy maybe]

I haven&#39;t thought about this issue for years&#33; (Since I was in high school.)

Basically, girls tend to learn better in an environment where there are only girls around, where as boys tend to learn better where there are girls around... At least that is what I remember the studies that I had read saying.

Personally, I think that mixed schools (males, females, others) should be the norm. Among other things, of course boys and girls are going to have to live and work together in the future...

An option is to have some classes that are segregated, but the school as a whole mixed.

[TC]

Originally posted by bleeding gums malatesta+July 26, 2007 02:14 am--> (bleeding gums malatesta &#064; July 26, 2007 02:14 am)
Originally posted by RedDali+July 26, 2007 05:44 am--> (RedDali &#064; July 26, 2007 05:44 am) Are boys-only or girls-only schools discriminatory? [/b]
No, unless there&#39;s no alternative schools in a given area. [/b]
What are you kidding me???

Of course its discriminatory, to have a blanket admissions policy discriminating on the basis of sex is inherently by definition sex discrimination.

Do you actually think that prior to 1972 when Harvard college admissions didn&#39;t allow women, that it wasn&#39;t discriminatory since they could always just go to off to Radcliffe or Wellesley?

No, thats utter bullshit and makes as much sense as claiming that racially segregating schools isn&#39;t discriminatory. Of course it is.



Originally posted by BGM


[email protected]
now there comes the obvious question as to where trans-gendered or persons of other wise non-specific gender would go to school .... i would imagine that these persons would also have rather specific learning needs, thus it might also be advantageous to allocate resources for a school for them too ....

Trans and intersex kids should decide for themselves.
That makes even less sense and amounts to the absurd claim that its alright to discriminate against people on the basis of sex unless they decide to claim to be the opposite sex.


Apathy Maybe
Basically, girls tend to learn better in an environment where there are only girls around, where as boys tend to learn better where there are girls around... At least that is what I remember the studies that I had read saying.

...

An option is to have some classes that are segregated, but the school as a whole mixed.


There is no way to generalize any study comparing performance in single sex and mixed sex environments because there is simply no way to 1. determine meaningful measures for results 2. meaningfully control for teaching, curriculum and assessment differences 3. meaningfully control for inherent differences in the populations that attend single and mixed sex schools which might arise in self-selection, geographic, parental and income selection, so any such claims are nothing more than sexist bullshit trumped up as pop psychology.

Even if someone had some bullshit data to support such a claim, marginal differences in performance is not a basis for discriminatory social engineering. Imagine if white kids learn better in all white environments, think they should have separate classrooms???

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Simply put, there is only one reason to segregate schools and colleges and universities on the basis of sex: so that conservative fathers can continue to pretend that their daughters aren&#39;t having sex. Everything else is just the way they conceptualize their patriarchal urges to control and "protect" their kids from themselves and their peers. The urge to put kids into single sex education, which is, keep in mind, the primary area where they interact socially until they enter work, is in essence an urge to reduce students to their function of studying and to deny their sexual and social needs, to deny their full person-hood.

[NorthStarRepublicML]

here is some food or thought .... this is from the summary of the book "Why Gender Matters" by Leonard Sax PhD MD ....


The brain develops differently. In girls, the language areas of the brain develop before the areas used for spatial relations and for geometry. In boys, it&#39;s the other way around. A curriculum which ignores those differences will produce boys who can&#39;t write and girls who think they&#39;re "dumb at math."

The brain is wired differently. In girls, emotion is processed in the same area of the brain that processes language. So, it&#39;s easy for most girls to talk about their emotions. In boys, the brain regions involved in talking are separate from the regions involved in feeling. The hardest question for many boys to answer is: "Tell me how you feel."

Girls hear better. The typical teenage girl has a sense of hearing seven times more acute than a teenage boy. That&#39;s why daughters so often complain that their fathers are shouting at them. Dad doesn&#39;t think he&#39;s shouting, but Dad doesn&#39;t hear his voice the way his daughter does.

Girls and boys respond to stress differently - not just in our species, but in every mammal scientists have studied. Stress enhances learning in males. The same stress impairs learning in females.

These differences matter. Some experts now believe that the neglect of hardwired gender differences in childrearing may increase a son&#39;s risk of becoming a reckless street racer, or a daughter&#39;s risk of experiencing an unwanted pregnancy.

Since the mid-1970&#39;s, educators have made a virtue of ignoring gender differences. The assumption was that by teaching girls and boys the same subjects in the same way at the same age, gender gaps in achievement would be eradicated. That approach has failed. Gender gaps in some areas have widened in the past three decades. The pro-portion of girls studying subjects such as physics and computer science has dropped in half. Boys are less likely to study subjects such as foreign languages, history, and music than they were three decades ago. The ironic result of three decades of gender blindness has been an intensifying of gender stereotypes.

http://privateschool.about.com/gi/dynamic/...dermatters.com/ (http://privateschool.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=privateschool&cdn=education&tm=7&f=20&tt=2&bt=0&bts=0&zu=http%3A//www.whygendermatters.com/)

from what i have read Leonard Sax is the leading proponent of single sex schools, and none of his arguments seem to revolve around the stereotype of "conservative fathers can continue to pretend that their daughters aren&#39;t having sex."

which as usual sounds like mindless rhetoric coming out of TC ....

edit: fixed spelling mistakes

[rouchambeau]

TC, what do you think of the idea of a separate space for women? Do you think Virginia Woolf was wrong about such an idea?

[counterblast]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27, 2007 09:39 pm
TC, what do you think of the idea of a separate space for women? Do you think Virginia Woolf was wrong about such an idea?
I cannot speak on TC&#39;s behalf, but my answer is simply no. A "seperate space" and a "safe space" are two entirely different concepts. The former makes the sweeping generalization that only women have sympathy towards womens issues.

But rather than quoting Virginia Woolf, why not delve into the work of more contemporary theorists like Julia Kristeva or Judith Butler? The current state of feminism (and the world in general) isn&#39;t even comparable to that of the 1870s.

[TC]

Originally posted by NorthStarRepublicML+July 27, 2007 07:35 pm--> (NorthStarRepublicML @ July 27, 2007 07:35 pm) here is some food or thought .... this is from the summary of the book "Why Gender Matters" by Leonard Sax PhD MD ....
[/b]
Uh, you&#39;re siting an authors own summary in a popular press (not peer reviewed) book which cites no sources as "proof"?

Leonard Sax has been demonstrated to make incorrect claims from methodologically weak studies, you can read about it here:

http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog...04618.html#more (http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004618.html#more)




from what i have read Leonard Sax is the leading proponent of single sex schools, and none of his arguments seem to revolve around the stereotype of "conservative fathers can continue to pretend that their daughters aren&#39;t having sex."

Yes, patriarchal reactionaries are smart enough to realize that no one but other patriarchal reactionaries would find their *real* motives appealing (clearly not their kids) so they have to make up alternative explanations to justify their positions.


Originally posted by rouchambeau+--> (rouchambeau)TC, what do you think of the idea of a separate space for women? Do you think Virginia Woolf was wrong about such an idea?[/b]

I may be mistaken but i didn&#39;t think Virginia Woolf ever argued for a separate "space for women" but that a woman should have her own space to do creative work.


[email protected]
I cannot speak on TC&#39;s behalf, but my answer is simply no.

Yes, quite clearly given that i have the opposite view.


CounterBlast
A "seperate space" and a "safe space" are two entirely different concepts. The former makes the sweeping generalization that only women have sympathy towards womens issues.

Whereas the later makes equally sweeping and even more insultingly patronizing generalizations that weak vulnerable women need to feel "safe" from those scary aggressive men who want to hurt us&#33; Clearly a profoundly demeaning and humiliating characterization of both women and men.

No, there is absolutely no reason for there to be any political or institutional gender segregation, (except voluntary in very limited circumstances among heterosexuals when sexual tension is undesirable, like in open plan locker rooms with showers)