How to escape capitalism

[The_Truth]

I have truly come to understand that money is the root to all evil. As a 15 year old growing up in America I have seen how money shapes everyone. From wanting something as simple as a video game or to the millions of people who struggle everyday to make barely enough for themselves while MTV pimps people's rides.

I'm asking, is there any way for me to escape this or am I going to have to put up with it. I want out, I want to change this for the better. I don't really know much about Communism or the other theories talked about here but I agree with the general message.

Basically I'm asking does anyone know how I can start to sever my ties forever with capitalism or is that just impossible.

[Faux Real]

You should devour some Marxist writing, some good suggestions on where to start would be here (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=68444). Unfortunately, we can't escape capitalism quite yet. The best thing to do is examine and study it, and learn solutions and methods on how to prepare for a revolution and post-capitalist society. Hope that helps. Welcome to the forums by the way!

By the way, money isn't the root of all evil, the way it's moved around based off the exploitation of the working class is the 'evil'.

[Mariam]

I'm asking, is there any way for me to escape this or am I going to have to put up with it. I want out, I want to change this for the better. I don't really know much about Communism or the other theories talked about here but I agree with the general message.

You can't escape capitalism once you got to realize whats going on, you just got to fight that is if you really want to change things or you just go with it. ;)

[Wanted Man]

Get active today, don't just sit on the 'net.

http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=61354
http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=31615

[apathy maybe]

The_Truth: There is only one sure fire way to escape capitalism, and that is revolution (unless you want to kill yourself, but that isn't generally a good option...).

Of course, there are plenty of ways to minimise your reliance on capitalism, to minimise the time spent in the system, but it is very hard (if not impossible) to eliminate being part of the state/capitalist system in the current times.

The ideas that I'll present in this post will be derided as lifestylist by some of the more dogmatic sorts around here, as unsustainiable, unrealistic and so on. My advice is to take those words with a grain of salt, compare what I am saying to what they are saying, read some other texts and make up your own mind.

Anyway, there have been plenty of attempts by people to escape capitalism in the past. There have been various communes (Commune_%28intentional_community%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commune_%28intentional_community%29)) set up by all sorts of people over the years.

As well, squatting and dumpster diving will both get you out of the price/demand system, at least for housing, food (and whatever else you can dig out of a dumpster, lots of shit).

Another option (though it still contributes to demand), is stealing.

The philosophy of contributing to demand as little as possible is commonly called freeganism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/freeganism). There are threads about it on the board.

Anyway, for more information about any of the stuff in this thread, do a search on RevLeft, I know there are topics on dumpster diving, squatting and stealing in DIY. I think a freeganism thread is in Philosophy, but do a search.

Anyway, hope I've been helpful! Ask if you have any more questions.

[brasil82]

What I do is to try to eliminate my needs as much as possible,and most important to talk about my feelings,even if people think I am crazy,dreamer,anarchist or communist,we don't have the luxury of beeing quite or sut the fuck up,now our mouths should tell the true,now it is turn for blasphemies,speak up mate...

[Bilan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 01:09 pm
I have truly come to understand that money is the root to all evil. As a 15 year old growing up in America I have seen how money shapes everyone. From wanting something as simple as a video game or to the millions of people who struggle everyday to make barely enough for themselves while MTV pimps people's rides.

I'm asking, is there any way for me to escape this or am I going to have to put up with it. I want out, I want to change this for the better. I don't really know much about Communism or the other theories talked about here but I agree with the general message.

Basically I'm asking does anyone know how I can start to sever my ties forever with capitalism or is that just impossible.
Some would be willing to tell you can, like this crew (http://crimethinc.com), but escaping capitalism can be, if at all, only temporary.

If you want to learn more about socialism, get a broad outlook on it, try writings from here, which has a lot on Marxism and Marxist ideology (http://marxists.org), and here for anarchist stuff. (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_archives/index.html).
I am not a Marxist, so I wont try to recommend you any writings - apart from that of Karl Marx, and Lenin - but as for Anarchism, I recommend you have a read of Kropotkin (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_archives/kropotkin/KropotkinCW.html), Malatesta (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_archives/malatesta/MalatestaCW.html), Bookchin (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_archives/bookchin/BookchinCW.html), and Noam Chomsky (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_archives/chomsky/chomskycw.html).

Solidarity and love!

[Floyce White]

Being an adult means putting up with intolerable humiliation, day after day, and then going back to face it the next day. All you can do is to treat others with respect and dignity to the best of your ability, and help others organize to end the oppression.

[Black Cross]

As said above: Read on capitalism, communism, marxism, et cetera, and get active as soon as possible. There are plenty of groups who could use the help. Good luck to you on this forum, and in activity comrade.

[The-Spark]

The only way to escape capitalism is to fight it and destroy it, to rebel, become an activist, educate yourself and teach others. Spread influence, rebel.

[Axel1917]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 03:09 am
I have truly come to understand that money is the root to all evil. As a 15 year old growing up in America I have seen how money shapes everyone. From wanting something as simple as a video game or to the millions of people who struggle everyday to make barely enough for themselves while MTV pimps people's rides.

I'm asking, is there any way for me to escape this or am I going to have to put up with it. I want out, I want to change this for the better. I don't really know much about Communism or the other theories talked about here but I agree with the general message.

Basically I'm asking does anyone know how I can start to sever my ties forever with capitalism or is that just impossible.
It is a complete impossibility to escape from capitalism. You are going to need some kind of commodity to keep yourself going in the long run.

We can't just live outside of capitalism - we have to get active and fight shoulder-to-shoulder with the working class, patiently explaining to them to win them over. You have to fight while living under capitalism. Capitalism is the womb in which the new socialist society develops.

[apathy maybe]

Originally posted by Floyce [email protected] 24, 2007 04:35 am
Being an adult means putting up with intolerable humiliation, day after day, and then going back to face it the next day. All you can do is to treat others with respect and dignity to the best of your ability, and help others organize to end the oppression.
Thankfully not all of us see the need to be "adult" like. Often we notice that children have more fun, that children have less worries, we of course know that this is because at the same time they have less responsibilities. We think then, how can we have less responsibilities, so as to enable us to have more fun?

We reject the "bourgeois" notion of maturity (for we notice two things, that often children are mature, and at the same time, so many adults are immature), we reject the idea of responsibility.

We fight not for the right to work more, but the right to work less! We desire an end to work, and in our day to day lives, while fighting for an end to work, attempt to work as little as possible.

We may have jobs, we have responsibilities (many of them forced upon us by those hated institutions, taxes, voting and so on), and yet we can still live our lives to minimize these.

We use sabotage, working to the rules, slow downs and other methods to work less, we use "lifestylist" methods such as dumpster diving, squatting and so on to help eliminate the need for work at all.

We do of course recognise that simply dropping out isn't an answer, at least not an answer to the question of what we are dropping out of. As such, we fight at the same time to eliminate the oppressive structures that bind us. We organise in our work places, we organise outside of them, we post on random message boards rants about maturity and adulthood.

I'm an adult only by my standards, I refuse to use the standards of the oppressors who want to make work into a good thing. I refuse to bow to their way of thinking, I prefer mine thanks.

[brasil82]

[QUOTE=apathy maybe,July 24, 2007 08:23 am] [QUOTE=

I'm an adult only by my standards, I refuse to use the standards of the oppressors who want to make work into a good thing. I refuse to bow to their way of thinking, I prefer mine thanks.΄


Way to go mate,I am 40 but always immature(at least according to those,who thinks that maturity is to have money etc)and I still will be so.

[blackstone]

Originally posted by apathy maybe+July 24, 2007 08:23 am--> (apathy maybe @ July 24, 2007 08:23 am)
Floyce [email protected] 24, 2007 04:35 am
Being an adult means putting up with intolerable humiliation, day after day, and then going back to face it the next day. All you can do is to treat others with respect and dignity to the best of your ability, and help others organize to end the oppression.
Thankfully not all of us see the need to be "adult" like. Often we notice that children have more fun, that children have less worries, we of course know that this is because at the same time they have less responsibilities. We think then, how can we have less responsibilities, so as to enable us to have more fun?

We reject the "bourgeois" notion of maturity (for we notice two things, that often children are mature, and at the same time, so many adults are immature), we reject the idea of responsibility.

We fight not for the right to work more, but the right to work less! We desire an end to work, and in our day to day lives, while fighting for an end to work, attempt to work as little as possible.

We may have jobs, we have responsibilities (many of them forced upon us by those hated institutions, taxes, voting and so on), and yet we can still live our lives to minimize these.

We use sabotage, working to the rules, slow downs and other methods to work less, we use "lifestylist" methods such as dumpster diving, squatting and so on to help eliminate the need for work at all.

We do of course recognise that simply dropping out isn't an answer, at least not an answer to the question of what we are dropping out of. As such, we fight at the same time to eliminate the oppressive structures that bind us. We organise in our work places, we organise outside of them, we post on random message boards rants about maturity and adulthood.

I'm an adult only by my standards, I refuse to use the standards of the oppressors who want to make work into a good thing. I refuse to bow to their way of thinking, I prefer mine thanks. [/b]
Correct me if i'm wrong, but the goal of communism/socialism is not about working less or not working at all. Capitalism is exploitave because capitalists appropiates surplus value that the proleteriat created through their unpaid wage labor(surplus labor) in the interests of the capitalists. If workers were to seize the state, it doesn't necessarily mean shorter work hours. It means that not only are worker's in control of the means of production, but also that we are not only owners of our labor power but our surplus labor and as a class owners of surplus value.

We are not fighting for an end to work, because if so, how will the commodities or such we need to survive be produced if noone is in the factories!

[apathy maybe]

brasil82: No worries. Keep having fun.

blackstone: What do you mean by the word "work"? To me it is something that is not desirable. Something forced upon us.

Of course we are fighting to gain control over our own labour. But at the same time, we are fighting to work less, or even not at all.

Such a debate rests upon what we mean by words, to mean communism is a society where (among other things) goods are held in common, certain "jobs" and types of labour are eliminated, and there is no hierarchy. The sorts of jobs that would go include those in the financial sector, unpleasant jobs and so on.

So, along with actually gaining the full value of our work (which means we can work less for the same reward), there will be less work, which will mean we can work less because there are more people to do the various jobs, and thus we have more time for leisure.

And so, we are fighting for less work, because it is a natural consequence of having control over our own labour. (And who will work the factories, why that is what robots are for!)

[blackstone]

I fully understand that with the emergence of communism, there will be more workers to do work, meaning less work for the average worker. So if you look at it like that , yes we are fighting for to work less.

Debating in a circle im afraid. :D

[Tower of Bebel]

Okay, as you can see, The Truth, you cannot escape capitalism easily. We advice you to -if you haven't done this already- to read some stuff on capitalism and socialism, whether it is communism or anarchism.

If you fully understand what capitalism is and what alterantive(s) we have in mind, you will also understand that you have to stand up and fight for a better world. So you could be interested in learning the right tactics as well. You can always ask people on this forum if you need information.

[Floyce White]

Apathy Maybe, being an adult is a material condition. Physical and emotional ability to mate and raise children, to sacrifice for the sake of others instead of just walking away, and so on, is not a "bourgeois notion." On the other hand, hedonic calculus (the idea that we are primarily motivated by pleasure and pain) is a bourgeois notion that can easily be disproved.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Don't get active yet, otherwise you can be taken advantage by various movements, or be a stooge who just sells papers and is not taken seriously.

read up on stuff first.

[apathy maybe]

Originally posted by Floyce [email protected] 25, 2007 05:59 am
Apathy Maybe, being an adult is a material condition. Physical and emotional ability to mate and raise children, to sacrifice for the sake of others instead of just walking away, and so on, is not a "bourgeois notion." On the other hand, hedonic calculus (the idea that we are primarily motivated by pleasure and pain) is a bourgeois notion that can easily be disproved.
While I think I understand where you are coming from, I still disagree.

Firstly, if being an adult is being physically and mentally able to "mate" (to have sex, to fuck, to shag (and I don't have my copy of H2G2 in front of me, and I can't find the quote I want on the 'net...)), then any teenager going through puberty can be considered an adult. I was an adult at 15 by your definition! (if not earlier). I read recently that the average (the average, so there are people doing it younger...) age of US teenagers having sex was 15 (or 15.5 depending on what you believe), are all of these people adults? (I was pretty mature at 15, but I didn't have life experience...)

OK fine, you did state two things, raising a child was the second. Wait! I'm not intending to have a child ever! Does that mean I'll never become an adult? Are all those 15 year olds who are having sex and getting pregnant, are they adults?


You talk about sacrificing for the sake of others, "instead of just walking away". That's fine, but it isn't a good criteria for adulthood. Children often do things for friends, and adults often do walk away.

Basically, your definition is not in tune with material reality, or it is not in tune with the general societally accepted definition of what an adult is. Which is it do you think?



(Oh, and it is "apathy maybe", no capitals, I'm not a capitalist :P)

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by apathy [email protected] 24, 2007 08:23 am
Thankfully not all of us see the need to be "adult" like.
Those of us who are not owners of means of production have no choice. We have to put food into our dishes, and, in a capitalist society, this can only be done by selling our labour power to the enemy. Which means wasting more than half of our wake time doing things that we don't want to do.


Often we notice that children have more fun,

This idea has been repeated a few times, but this kind of hedonism remains unappealing. It seems, for instance, that racists have more fun, with all those stupid racist jokes - should we all become racist, then?

People find fun in the most diverse things, some of which are wonderful, others stupid but harmless, and some simply barbaric. So "fun" cannot be taken as the foundation of a reasonable ethic.


We think then, how can we have less responsibilities, so as to enable us to have more fun?

That's not how we should think. We cannot avoid responsibilities, except by transferring such responsibilities onto others, in an exploitative way.


We fight not for the right to work more, but the right to work less!

We fight for the right to only work in our own collective, democratically discussed, interest. That will quite certainly be less work besides of free work. But if we haven't better things to do with our free time than boozing ourselves into inconscience, harming public property, or torturing animals for pleasure, then it will be not worth the pain.


We use sabotage, working to the rules, slow downs and other methods to work less, we use "lifestylist" methods such as dumpster diving, squatting and so on to help eliminate the need for work at all.

Those things do not eliminate the need for work. At most, they might allow the person doing them to personally avoid working. But at the expense of the labour of other people.


I'm an adult only by my standards, I refuse to use the standards of the oppressors who want to make work into a good thing. I refuse to bow to their way of thinking, I prefer mine thanks.

The oppressor don't want to make work into a good thing, they want to make exploited labour a good thing. That's the precise difference between them and us.

Luís Henrique

[Hit The North]

There's opened up an interesting contrast in this discussion between apathy maybe's self-centred, hedonistic take on revolutionary aims and tactics and the more socially-rooted, collective position of Floyce and Luis Henrique.

Is this the result of differences in age, temperament, politics, or something else?

Luis:
We fight for the right to only work in our own collective, democratically discussed, interest. That will quite certainly be less work besides of free work. But if we haven't better things to do with our free time than boozing ourselves into inconscience, harming public property, or torturing animals for pleasure, then it will be not worth the pain.


I think it's easy to lose sight of this aspiration, because under the yoke of capital we come to see our leisure as a means of self-negation.

[Floyce White]

Apathy Maybe, you must be aware of the mass phenomenon of precocious puberty and abnormal tallness caused by the diet of gluttonous meat consumption.

[colorlessman]

Originally posted by Floyce [email protected] 25, 2007 03:59 am
hedonic calculus (the idea that we are primarily motivated by pleasure and pain) is a bourgeois notion that can easily be disproved.
Disprove it!

Example:
People eat because eating feels good and avoid not eating because hunger is pain.

[Floyce White]

Pain is a biological reaction to events after they occur. So are tickle and pressure, hot and cold, hearing and sight. They are effects not causes. They are sensations not programs or plans for subsequent action. Seeing a tree does not cause a person to climb it. Feeling hot sunshine does not cause a person to seek shade. Any number of reactions can and do occur, depending on higher thought processes.

Hedonic calculus ignores instincts that ensure the survival of the species and override simple sensational reactions. Hedonic calculus ignores rational processes such as self-sacrifice that entail far more pain than pleasure for the individuals who make the sacrifices.

In short, hedonic calculus is a dummied-down ideological tool that grew out of and serves to excuse mass alienation. Its definitions of "pleasure" and "pain" are vague and culturally biased. Is the sensation of hot "pain" or "pleasure?" It depends. Depends on what? On whatever you like.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by Floyce [email protected] 27, 2007 02:55 am
Hedonic calculus ignores rational processes such as self-sacrifice that entail far more pain than pleasure for the individuals who make the sacrifices.
Yes. It also ignores the fact that people derive pleasure from activities that are, well, painful. Ever played soccer? Ever listened to rap? Ever read Sartre?

If we were to believe in pure hedonism, we would not feed ourselves anything else than human milk, would never do anything but lying in bed, and would not be able to survive.

Luís Henrique

[Saint Street Revolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 03:09 am
I have truly come to understand that money is the root to all evil. As a 15 year old growing up in America I have seen how money shapes everyone. From wanting something as simple as a video game or to the millions of people who struggle everyday to make barely enough for themselves while MTV pimps people's rides.

I'm asking, is there any way for me to escape this or am I going to have to put up with it. I want out, I want to change this for the better. I don't really know much about Communism or the other theories talked about here but I agree with the general message.

Basically I'm asking does anyone know how I can start to sever my ties forever with capitalism or is that just impossible.
There is no full escape from Capitalism 'till Revolution, but you can signicantly reduce your contribution to the bloody war machine that runs the United States.

Simple stuff like borrowing from others, making your own things, sharing literature, downloading your music from file sharing networks like Limewire, as well as actual activism help the fight in a huge way. Take money from the hands of the rich (not really talking about theft, but that's always good, steal from the rich, give to the poor) and watch Capitalism fade from most of your affairs.

I'm 17 myself, and people always call me poor because I spend a maximum of around 5 bucks a day, :lol:. It's all good. Those people that call me poor don't know what they're doing to the world.

You can sever your ties, only partially.

[Saint Street Revolution]

Originally posted by Tierra y [email protected] 23, 2007 11:43 am
Some would be willing to tell you can, like this crew (http://crimethinc.com), but escaping capitalism can be, if at all, only temporary.


I agree, there is always some sort of reliance to Capitalism while it plagues us.

I really like Crimethinc though, they distribute some really great stuff, even some things for free.