Do you all lack ambition?

[mattnzn]

Constantly complaining how you are oppressed and work as a slave to barely get by. I don't like jobs either, or working for other people. But instead of sitting around and whining about it I started my own online business.

Self-employed, I provide an online service for other people, takes me about 5-10 minutes per to run, and I make great money. No one works for me either. I have plans to expand of course.

Why don't you all do something similiar? Or it just seems to be that the far left liberal mentality is to never take any initiative for yourself.

[Rawthentic]

No, working people dont slave off, 8-12 hours a day for a fraction of what we actually create. <_<

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 10:12 pm
Constantly complaining how you are oppressed and work as a slave to barely get by. I don&#39;t like jobs either, or working for other people. But instead of sitting around and whining about it I started my own online business.

Self-employed, I provide an online service for other people, takes me about 5-10 minutes per to run, and I make great money. No one works for me either. I have plans to expand of course.

Why don&#39;t you all do something similiar? Or it just seems to be that the far left liberal mentality is to never take any initiative for yourself.
yeah we all here are a bunch of lazy good for nothing bums. :rolleyes:
how did you know? :huh:

we like to complain&#33; blah blah blah. When I ask questions, I want damn answers and if they are lies then I will search for truth, always.

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by mattnzn+--> (mattnzn)Constantly complaining how you are oppressed and work as a slave to barely get by. I don&#39;t like jobs either, or working for other people. But instead of sitting around and whining about it I started my own online business.[/b]
If we all became&#39; online businessmen&#39; then there wouldnt be any workers left to produce your crappy merchandise or whatever it is you sell.

Originally posted by [email protected]
Self-employed, I provide an online service for other people, takes me about 5-10 minutes per to run, and I make great money. No one works for me either. I have plans to expand of course.and this is a defence of your point how?

mattnzn
Why don&#39;t you all do something similiar? Or it just seems to be that the far left liberal mentality is to never take any initiative for yourself.
See above. Also you wont find many &#39;left liberals&#39; round here. Those there are restricted to OI where they belong.

[mattnzn]

Originally posted by Ulster Socialist+July 22, 2007 10:21 pm--> (Ulster Socialist @ July 22, 2007 10:21 pm)
Originally posted by mattnzn+--> (mattnzn)Constantly complaining how you are oppressed and work as a slave to barely get by. I don&#39;t like jobs either, or working for other people. But instead of sitting around and whining about it I started my own online business.[/b]
If we all became&#39; online businessmen&#39; then there wouldnt be any workers left to produce your crappy merchandise or whatever it is you sell.

[email protected]
Self-employed, I provide an online service for other people, takes me about 5-10 minutes per to run, and I make great money. No one works for me either. I have plans to expand of course.and this is a defence of your point how?

mattnzn
Why don&#39;t you all do something similiar? Or it just seems to be that the far left liberal mentality is to never take any initiative for yourself.
See above. Also you wont find many &#39;left liberals&#39; round here. Those there are restricted to OI where they belong. [/b]
Do you lack reading comprehension? I said I provide a service...I do not sell a tangible product.

[R_P_A_S]

self interest, egoistic, and chauvinistic attitude derived from the capitalist system.
I&#39;m glad I can think FOR MY SELF. just look how you sound.

"i started my own business"
"i made all of my money"
"i worked hard for my stuff"

I, I, I, ME&#33; ME&#33; ME&#33;

Am I supposed to apologize and feel bad that I don&#39;t think that way?
I mean yes it fucking blows that I have to think that way and act within the rules of this dog eat dog world where competition against others, working to make others rich and money is my incentive.

As opposed to wanting to work together, cooperate and plan production so that essential needs are met. You saying thats complaining? I think is fucking pretty much common sense.

I personally don&#39;t condemn what you are you doing to &#39;make your money mayn&#39;
But why do you come off like what we believe in is bad?? why does it bother you?

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by mattnzn+July 22, 2007 10:25 pm--> (mattnzn &#064; July 22, 2007 10:25 pm)
Originally posted by Ulster Socialist+July 22, 2007 10:21 pm--> (Ulster Socialist &#064; July 22, 2007 10:21 pm)
Originally posted by mattnzn
Constantly complaining how you are oppressed and work as a slave to barely get by. I don&#39;t like jobs either, or working for other people. But instead of sitting around and whining about it I started my own online business.
If we all became&#39; online businessmen&#39; then there wouldnt be any workers left to produce your crappy merchandise or whatever it is you sell.

[email protected]
Self-employed, I provide an online service for other people, takes me about 5-10 minutes per to run, and I make great money. No one works for me either. I have plans to expand of course.and this is a defence of your point how?

mattnzn
Why don&#39;t you all do something similiar? Or it just seems to be that the far left liberal mentality is to never take any initiative for yourself.
See above. Also you wont find many &#39;left liberals&#39; round here. Those there are restricted to OI where they belong. [/b]
Do you lack reading comprehension? I said I provide a service...I do not sell a tangible product. [/b]
who do you think provides the labour behind your &#39;service&#39;?

The Easter Bunny?

[mattnzn]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 10:31 pm
self interest, egoistic, and chauvinistic attitude derived from the capitalist system.
I&#39;m glad I can think FOR MY SELF. just look how you sound.

"i started my own business"
"i made all of my money"
"i worked hard for my stuff"

I, I, I, ME&#33; ME&#33; ME&#33;

Am I supposed to apologize and feel bad that I don&#39;t think that way?
I mean yes it fucking blows that I have to think that way and act within the rules of this dog eat dog world where competition against others, working to make others rich and money is my incentive.

As opposed to wanting to work together, cooperate and plan production so that essential needs are met. You saying thats complaining? I think is fucking pretty much common sense.

I personally don&#39;t condemn what you are you doing to &#39;make your money mayn&#39;
But why do you come off like what we believe in is bad?? why does it bother you?
With your mentality...I guess I should give all my extra money away to people like you? Or maybe I should support your agenda so that we can all be equally poor (hey, no people who have more material items than us to be jealous of&#33;) and have just our basic needs met?

How about instead of *****ing about it, go make something of yourself and start your own business venture (in a communist fashion of course) where you distribute all of your income out to all of your employees equally? Maybe you can set a fine example...get what I&#39;m trying to say?

I understand that competition is barbaric and insensitive. I guess my loss is someone elses gain, and my gain is someone elses loss. Being successful is unethical and a moral failure&#33; :rolleyes:

[mattnzn]

Originally posted by Ulster Socialist+July 22, 2007 10:31 pm--> (Ulster Socialist @ July 22, 2007 10:31 pm)
Originally posted by mattnzn+July 22, 2007 10:25 pm--> (mattnzn &#064; July 22, 2007 10:25 pm)
Originally posted by Ulster Socialist+July 22, 2007 10:21 pm--> (Ulster Socialist &#064; July 22, 2007 10:21 pm)
mattnzn
Constantly complaining how you are oppressed and work as a slave to barely get by. I don&#39;t like jobs either, or working for other people. But instead of sitting around and whining about it I started my own online business.
If we all became&#39; online businessmen&#39; then there wouldnt be any workers left to produce your crappy merchandise or whatever it is you sell.

[email protected]
Self-employed, I provide an online service for other people, takes me about 5-10 minutes per to run, and I make great money. No one works for me either. I have plans to expand of course.and this is a defence of your point how?

mattnzn
Why don&#39;t you all do something similiar? Or it just seems to be that the far left liberal mentality is to never take any initiative for yourself.
See above. Also you wont find many &#39;left liberals&#39; round here. Those there are restricted to OI where they belong. [/b]
Do you lack reading comprehension? I said I provide a service...I do not sell a tangible product. [/b]
who do you think provides the labour behind your &#39;service&#39;?

The Easter Bunny? [/b]
There is no human labor behind it. It&#39;s all automated

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by mattnzn+--> (mattnzn)With your mentality...I guess I should give all my extra money away to people like you? Or maybe I should support your agenda so that we can all be equally poor (hey, no people who have more material items than us to be jealous of&#33;) and have just our basic needs met?[/b]
The point of communism/socialism is so that no one is poor. BTW your &#39;extra money&#39; is the produce of other people&#39;s labour anyway. All capital comes from labour.

Originally posted by [email protected]

How about instead of *****ing about it, go make something of yourself and start your own business venture (in a communist fashion of course) where you distribute all of your income out to all of your employees equally? Maybe you can set a fine example...get what I&#39;m trying to say?
Under socialism/communism there will be no employer/employee distinction.


mattnzn

I understand that competition is barbaric and insensitive. I guess my loss is someone elses gain, and my gain is someone elses loss. Being successful is unethical and a moral failure&#33; :rolleyes:
Depends what you mean in successful. If you mean in terms of how this ideaology has benefited the human species at large, then capitalism has been a gross failure.
I dont think youre here for serious debate, so i suggest you get back to wanking over Ayn Rand and getting off over profit margins or whatever it is you do when youre not trolling on internet fora.

[mattnzn]

Originally posted by Ulster Socialist+July 22, 2007 10:46 pm--> (Ulster Socialist &#064; July 22, 2007 10:46 pm)
Originally posted by mattnzn+--> (mattnzn)With your mentality...I guess I should give all my extra money away to people like you? Or maybe I should support your agenda so that we can all be equally poor (hey, no people who have more material items than us to be jealous of&#33;) and have just our basic needs met?[/b]
The point of communism/socialism is so that no one is poor. BTW your &#39;extra money&#39; is the produce of other people&#39;s labour anyway. All capital comes from labour.

[email protected]

How about instead of *****ing about it, go make something of yourself and start your own business venture (in a communist fashion of course) where you distribute all of your income out to all of your employees equally? Maybe you can set a fine example...get what I&#39;m trying to say?
Under socialism/communism there will be no employer/employee distinction.


mattnzn

I understand that competition is barbaric and insensitive. I guess my loss is someone elses gain, and my gain is someone elses loss. Being successful is unethical and a moral failure&#33; :rolleyes:
Depends what you mean in successful. If you mean in terms of how this ideaology has benefited the human species at large, then capitalism has been a gross failure.
I dont think youre here for serious debate, so i suggest you get back to wanking over Ayn Rand and getting off over profit margins or whatever it is you do when youre not trolling on internet fora. [/b]
Okay, keep pretending to play communist leader if you don&#39;t want to debate with me. Go back to jerking off over your imagined "revolution" and utopian society. Che shirts are on sale this week, kid&#33;

Meanwhile, I&#39;ll focus on more productive things

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by mattnzn+July 22, 2007 10:37 pm--> (mattnzn @ July 22, 2007 10:37 pm)
[email protected] 22, 2007 10:31 pm
self interest, egoistic, and chauvinistic attitude derived from the capitalist system.
I&#39;m glad I can think FOR MY SELF. just look how you sound.

"i started my own business"
"i made all of my money"
"i worked hard for my stuff"

I, I, I, ME&#33; ME&#33; ME&#33;

Am I supposed to apologize and feel bad that I don&#39;t think that way?
I mean yes it fucking blows that I have to think that way and act within the rules of this dog eat dog world where competition against others, working to make others rich and money is my incentive.

As opposed to wanting to work together, cooperate and plan production so that essential needs are met. You saying thats complaining? I think is fucking pretty much common sense.

I personally don&#39;t condemn what you are you doing to &#39;make your money mayn&#39;
But why do you come off like what we believe in is bad?? why does it bother you?
With your mentality...I guess I should give all my extra money away to people like you? Or maybe I should support your agenda so that we can all be equally poor (hey, no people who have more material items than us to be jealous of&#33;) and have just our basic needs met?

How about instead of *****ing about it, go make something of yourself and start your own business venture (in a communist fashion of course) where you distribute all of your income out to all of your employees equally? Maybe you can set a fine example...get what I&#39;m trying to say?

I understand that competition is barbaric and insensitive. I guess my loss is someone elses gain, and my gain is someone elses loss. Being successful is unethical and a moral failure&#33; :rolleyes: [/b]
yeah dude&#33; start a "communist business" and distribute the wealth equally with my employees in a capitalist system. LOL thats really gonna work and last long&#33; :P :lol:

If you want to criticize based on reactionary arguments and with out even understanding the basics of a socialist economic system then might as well argue with a wall.

And I am making something with my self. what makes you think Im not? because I question the system&#39;s methods and because I speak out against injustices? Why are you assuming?

how are you "successful" in a capitalist system?
by doing good business, making lots of money. it don&#39;t matter how you got there, who you killed and stumped all over right? cus you are rich and living large. you are "successful&#33;&#33;&#33;"

thats how success is measured? by how much money is in your bank account? :rolleyes:
AND YOU DON&#39;T SEE THE SICKNESS IN THAT?

oh but a single mom with 2 kids working 2 full time jobs, getting by pay check to pay check
is consider a parasite on wel-fare to the system... she can&#39;t be successful..despite how much she has over come and how hard she has worked.

fuck out of here. I said I didn&#39;t care how you "made you money".. good for you. but you just want to talk shit. kick rocks. fuck out of here.

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by mattnzn+July 22, 2007 10:44 pm--> (mattnzn @ July 22, 2007 10:44 pm)
Originally posted by Ulster Socialist+July 22, 2007 10:31 pm--> (Ulster Socialist &#064; July 22, 2007 10:31 pm)
Originally posted by mattnzn+July 22, 2007 10:25 pm--> (mattnzn &#064; July 22, 2007 10:25 pm)
Originally posted by Ulster [email protected] 22, 2007 10:21 pm

mattnzn
Constantly complaining how you are oppressed and work as a slave to barely get by. I don&#39;t like jobs either, or working for other people. But instead of sitting around and whining about it I started my own online business.
If we all became&#39; online businessmen&#39; then there wouldnt be any workers left to produce your crappy merchandise or whatever it is you sell.

[email protected]
Self-employed, I provide an online service for other people, takes me about 5-10 minutes per to run, and I make great money. No one works for me either. I have plans to expand of course.and this is a defence of your point how?

mattnzn
Why don&#39;t you all do something similiar? Or it just seems to be that the far left liberal mentality is to never take any initiative for yourself.
See above. Also you wont find many &#39;left liberals&#39; round here. Those there are restricted to OI where they belong.
Do you lack reading comprehension? I said I provide a service...I do not sell a tangible product. [/b]
who do you think provides the labour behind your &#39;service&#39;?

The Easter Bunny? [/b]
There is no human labor behind it. It&#39;s all automated [/b]
Bullshit. Who do you think mans the production lines where your PC was assembled? Who toils in the electricity stations which power your home and business? How do your customers acquire the funds to pay you for your service? They have to labour for other people, so ipso facto, you are benefitting from their labour albeit, indirectly.

[mattnzn]

Originally posted by Ulster Socialist+July 22, 2007 10:49 pm--> (Ulster Socialist @ July 22, 2007 10:49 pm)
Originally posted by mattnzn+July 22, 2007 10:44 pm--> (mattnzn &#064; July 22, 2007 10:44 pm)
Originally posted by Ulster Socialist+July 22, 2007 10:31 pm--> (Ulster Socialist &#064; July 22, 2007 10:31 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 10:25 pm

Originally posted by Ulster [email protected] 22, 2007 10:21 pm

mattnzn
Constantly complaining how you are oppressed and work as a slave to barely get by. I don&#39;t like jobs either, or working for other people. But instead of sitting around and whining about it I started my own online business.
If we all became&#39; online businessmen&#39; then there wouldnt be any workers left to produce your crappy merchandise or whatever it is you sell.

[email protected]
Self-employed, I provide an online service for other people, takes me about 5-10 minutes per to run, and I make great money. No one works for me either. I have plans to expand of course.and this is a defence of your point how?

mattnzn
Why don&#39;t you all do something similiar? Or it just seems to be that the far left liberal mentality is to never take any initiative for yourself.
See above. Also you wont find many &#39;left liberals&#39; round here. Those there are restricted to OI where they belong.
Do you lack reading comprehension? I said I provide a service...I do not sell a tangible product.
who do you think provides the labour behind your &#39;service&#39;?

The Easter Bunny? [/b]
There is no human labor behind it. It&#39;s all automated [/b]
Bullshit. Who do you think mans the production lines where your PC was assembled? Who toils in the electricity stations which power your home and business? How do your customers acquire the funds to pay you for your service? They have to labour for other people, so ipso facto, you are benefitting from their labour albeit, indirectly. [/b]
Oh my god&#33; I must be such a bad person then. May I suggest stop using electricity and computers, because those arent necessary to your survival, and you are just supporting the capitalist system that you oppose

[Faux Real]

Ideally, I would enjoy becoming a pharmacist, doctor, or something within the physician realm. Due to my lack of resources and conditions necessary to become one in the States it&#39;s virtually impossible for me to become one, so I&#39;m just gathering some funds to travel and get an education elsewhere to become one.


Why don&#39;t you all do something similiar? Or it just seems to be that the far left liberal mentality is to never take any initiative for yourself.
:rolleyes:

Eh, most people here would rather do jobs that provide a service while not alienating themselves from human contact. A for-profit service would negate our proletarian status.

Besides, all of those "get rich quick from home&#33;" ads are scams. Bloody telemarketers.

[mattnzn]

Originally posted by R_P_A_S+July 22, 2007 10:49 pm--> (R_P_A_S &#064; July 22, 2007 10:49 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 10:37 pm

[email protected] 22, 2007 10:31 pm
self interest, egoistic, and chauvinistic attitude derived from the capitalist system.
I&#39;m glad I can think FOR MY SELF. just look how you sound.

"i started my own business"
"i made all of my money"
"i worked hard for my stuff"

I, I, I, ME&#33; ME&#33; ME&#33;

Am I supposed to apologize and feel bad that I don&#39;t think that way?
I mean yes it fucking blows that I have to think that way and act within the rules of this dog eat dog world where competition against others, working to make others rich and money is my incentive.

As opposed to wanting to work together, cooperate and plan production so that essential needs are met. You saying thats complaining? I think is fucking pretty much common sense.

I personally don&#39;t condemn what you are you doing to &#39;make your money mayn&#39;
But why do you come off like what we believe in is bad?? why does it bother you?
With your mentality...I guess I should give all my extra money away to people like you? Or maybe I should support your agenda so that we can all be equally poor (hey, no people who have more material items than us to be jealous of&#33;) and have just our basic needs met?

How about instead of *****ing about it, go make something of yourself and start your own business venture (in a communist fashion of course) where you distribute all of your income out to all of your employees equally? Maybe you can set a fine example...get what I&#39;m trying to say?

I understand that competition is barbaric and insensitive. I guess my loss is someone elses gain, and my gain is someone elses loss. Being successful is unethical and a moral failure&#33; :rolleyes:
yeah dude&#33; start a "communist business" and distribute the wealth equally with my employees in a capitalist system. LOL thats really gonna work and last long&#33; :P :lol:

If you want to criticize based on reactionary arguments and with out even understanding the basics of a socialist economic system then might as well argue with a wall.

And I am making something with my self. what makes you think Im not? because I question the system&#39;s methods and because I speak out against injustices? Why are you assuming?

how are you "successful" in a capitalist system?
by doing good business, making lots of money. it don&#39;t matter how you got there, who you killed and stumped all over right? cus you are rich and living large. you are "successful&#33;&#33;&#33;"

thats how success is measured? by how much money is in your bank account? :rolleyes:
AND YOU DON&#39;T SEE THE SICKNESS IN THAT?

oh but a single mom with 2 kids working 2 full time jobs, getting by pay check to pay check
is consider a parasite on wel-fare to the system... she can&#39;t be successful..despite how much she has over come and how hard she has worked.

fuck out of here. I said I didn&#39;t care how you "made you money".. good for you. but you just want to talk shit. kick rocks. fuck out of here. [/b]
Maybe the mom should have done better in school, to receive a better education and a higher paying job. Maybe she should go the library and learn about saving and investing any left over money. Maybe she should of made sure that she was better off fiscally before she had children. But of course, with your mentality, no one is liable for their own problems...always have to blame someone else

[mattnzn]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 10:53 pm
Ideally, I would enjoy becoming a pharmacist, doctor, or something within the physician realm. Due to my lack or resources and conditions necessary to become one in the States it&#39;s virtually impossible for me to become one, so I&#39;m just gathering some funds to travel and get an education elsewhere to become one.


Why don&#39;t you all do something similiar? Or it just seems to be that the far left liberal mentality is to never take any initiative for yourself.
:rolleyes:

Eh, most people here would rather do jobs that provide a service while not alienating themselves from human contact. A for-profit service would negate our proletarian status.

Besides, all of those "get rich quick from home&#33;" ads are scams. Bloody telemarketers.
If you want to become a doctor there are many scholarships available if you work hard to get good grades prior. If not, loans are always available. I know many doctors...and they werent always "rich"

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by mattnzn+July 22, 2007 10:52 pm--> (mattnzn @ July 22, 2007 10:52 pm)
Originally posted by Ulster Socialist+July 22, 2007 10:49 pm--> (Ulster Socialist &#064; July 22, 2007 10:49 pm)
Originally posted by mattnzn+July 22, 2007 10:44 pm--> (mattnzn &#064; July 22, 2007 10:44 pm)
Originally posted by Ulster [email protected] 22, 2007 10:31 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 10:25 pm

Originally posted by Ulster [email protected] 22, 2007 10:21 pm

mattnzn
Constantly complaining how you are oppressed and work as a slave to barely get by. I don&#39;t like jobs either, or working for other people. But instead of sitting around and whining about it I started my own online business.
If we all became&#39; online businessmen&#39; then there wouldnt be any workers left to produce your crappy merchandise or whatever it is you sell.

[email protected]
Self-employed, I provide an online service for other people, takes me about 5-10 minutes per to run, and I make great money. No one works for me either. I have plans to expand of course.and this is a defence of your point how?

mattnzn
Why don&#39;t you all do something similiar? Or it just seems to be that the far left liberal mentality is to never take any initiative for yourself.
See above. Also you wont find many &#39;left liberals&#39; round here. Those there are restricted to OI where they belong.
Do you lack reading comprehension? I said I provide a service...I do not sell a tangible product.
who do you think provides the labour behind your &#39;service&#39;?

The Easter Bunny?
There is no human labor behind it. It&#39;s all automated [/b]
Bullshit. Who do you think mans the production lines where your PC was assembled? Who toils in the electricity stations which power your home and business? How do your customers acquire the funds to pay you for your service? They have to labour for other people, so ipso facto, you are benefitting from their labour albeit, indirectly. [/b]
Oh my god&#33; I must be such a bad person then. May I suggest stop using electricity and computers, because those arent necessary to your survival, and you are just supporting the capitalist system that you oppose [/b]
if i used the same logic, then i would also stop eating and wearing clothes because im supporting the companies which produce them. Its a matter of utilising the tools we have at our disposal until the ideaology we want becomes a reality. Thats simply practicality, it isnt hypocracy. What is nonsense is your insinuation that between yourself and your customer there is no human interaction. What about utilities and logistics?

[Faux Real]

Originally posted by mattnzn+July 22, 2007 04:00 pm--> (mattnzn @ July 22, 2007 04:00 pm)
[email protected] 22, 2007 10:53 pm
Ideally, I would enjoy becoming a pharmacist, doctor, or something within the physician realm. Due to my lack or resources and conditions necessary to become one in the States it&#39;s virtually impossible for me to become one, so I&#39;m just gathering some funds to travel and get an education elsewhere to become one.


Why don&#39;t you all do something similiar? Or it just seems to be that the far left liberal mentality is to never take any initiative for yourself.
:rolleyes:

Eh, most people here would rather do jobs that provide a service while not alienating themselves from human contact. A for-profit service would negate our proletarian status.

Besides, all of those "get rich quick from home&#33;" ads are scams. Bloody telemarketers.
If you want to become a doctor there are many scholarships available if you work hard to get good grades prior. If not, loans are always available. I know many doctors...and they werent always "rich" [/b]
The problem is I became disillusioned with my educational system as it &#39;grades&#39; don&#39;t depend on your knowledge of the subject but rather on how well you follow orders and temporarily memorize things. I also don&#39;t see the need to do well in Chemistry, Phys Ed. , or some other compulsory class in order to gain a scholarship. It&#39;s a waste of time. I let my grades sink out of spite. :lol:

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by mattnzn+July 22, 2007 11:00 pm--> (mattnzn @ July 22, 2007 11:00 pm)
[email protected] 22, 2007 10:53 pm
Ideally, I would enjoy becoming a pharmacist, doctor, or something within the physician realm. Due to my lack or resources and conditions necessary to become one in the States it&#39;s virtually impossible for me to become one, so I&#39;m just gathering some funds to travel and get an education elsewhere to become one.


Why don&#39;t you all do something similiar? Or it just seems to be that the far left liberal mentality is to never take any initiative for yourself.
:rolleyes:

Eh, most people here would rather do jobs that provide a service while not alienating themselves from human contact. A for-profit service would negate our proletarian status.

Besides, all of those "get rich quick from home&#33;" ads are scams. Bloody telemarketers.
If you want to become a doctor there are many scholarships available if you work hard to get good grades prior. If not, loans are always available. I know many doctors...and they werent always "rich" [/b]
Our beef is that capitalism requires poverty in order to survive. You cant operate a class system if you have no poor people to exploit.
There is no moral or philosphical defence for a system which purposely keeps people down, which is really the big dichotomy when you criticise &#39;us commies&#39; for not aiming &#39;high enough&#39;.

[Dimentio]

Actually, I see nothing wrong with starting online businesses to raise money. As the Seq.Dir of NET, I am employing similar tactics myself.

Of course, it is a utopia that everyone could have their own e-businesses and earn tons of money, since there is only 24 hours on a cycle and a limited ability for people to consume services.

[Dr Mindbender]

Currency and capital would be an arbitrary concept under communism/socialism anyway.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by mattnzn+July 22, 2007 10:55 pm--> (mattnzn &#064; July 22, 2007 10:55 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 10:49 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 10:37 pm

[email protected] 22, 2007 10:31 pm
self interest, egoistic, and chauvinistic attitude derived from the capitalist system.
I&#39;m glad I can think FOR MY SELF. just look how you sound.

"i started my own business"
"i made all of my money"
"i worked hard for my stuff"

I, I, I, ME&#33; ME&#33; ME&#33;

Am I supposed to apologize and feel bad that I don&#39;t think that way?
I mean yes it fucking blows that I have to think that way and act within the rules of this dog eat dog world where competition against others, working to make others rich and money is my incentive.

As opposed to wanting to work together, cooperate and plan production so that essential needs are met. You saying thats complaining? I think is fucking pretty much common sense.

I personally don&#39;t condemn what you are you doing to &#39;make your money mayn&#39;
But why do you come off like what we believe in is bad?? why does it bother you?
With your mentality...I guess I should give all my extra money away to people like you? Or maybe I should support your agenda so that we can all be equally poor (hey, no people who have more material items than us to be jealous of&#33;) and have just our basic needs met?

How about instead of *****ing about it, go make something of yourself and start your own business venture (in a communist fashion of course) where you distribute all of your income out to all of your employees equally? Maybe you can set a fine example...get what I&#39;m trying to say?

I understand that competition is barbaric and insensitive. I guess my loss is someone elses gain, and my gain is someone elses loss. Being successful is unethical and a moral failure&#33; :rolleyes:
yeah dude&#33; start a "communist business" and distribute the wealth equally with my employees in a capitalist system. LOL thats really gonna work and last long&#33; :P :lol:

If you want to criticize based on reactionary arguments and with out even understanding the basics of a socialist economic system then might as well argue with a wall.

And I am making something with my self. what makes you think Im not? because I question the system&#39;s methods and because I speak out against injustices? Why are you assuming?

how are you "successful" in a capitalist system?
by doing good business, making lots of money. it don&#39;t matter how you got there, who you killed and stumped all over right? cus you are rich and living large. you are "successful&#33;&#33;&#33;"

thats how success is measured? by how much money is in your bank account? :rolleyes:
AND YOU DON&#39;T SEE THE SICKNESS IN THAT?

oh but a single mom with 2 kids working 2 full time jobs, getting by pay check to pay check
is consider a parasite on wel-fare to the system... she can&#39;t be successful..despite how much she has over come and how hard she has worked.

fuck out of here. I said I didn&#39;t care how you "made you money".. good for you. but you just want to talk shit. kick rocks. fuck out of here.
Maybe the mom should have done better in school, to receive a better education and a higher paying job. Maybe she should go the library and learn about saving and investing any left over money. Maybe she should of made sure that she was better off fiscally before she had children. But of course, with your mentality, no one is liable for their own problems...always have to blame someone else [/b]
yeah man. since all people under capitalism grow up with the same benefits and advantages the suburbs offer. :rolleyes:

you realized that compared to the rest of industrialized world the U.S. has the highest rate of crime, teen pregnancy due to its glorious capitalist model. and how well it takes care of their own. This is not a problem in other capitalist countries like France, England and Canada because of the socialist elements in their governments.

look how fucking pathetic you are. you sound egoistic and ignorant, you can thank your glorious system for allowing you to think "so freely" LMAO. :lol:

listen to your self. sad

[R_P_A_S]

i just realized you ignored and had no reply to the rest of my response to you. instead you decided to pick on the single mom. lol

[Dimentio]

Originally posted by Ulster [email protected] 22, 2007 11:18 pm
Currency and capital would be an arbitrary concept under communism/socialism anyway.
They won&#39;t exist.

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by R_P_A_S+July 22, 2007 11:40 pm--> (R_P_A_S &#064; July 22, 2007 11:40 pm) i just realized you ignored and had no reply to the rest of my response to you. instead you decided to pick on the single mom. lol [/b]
another drive-by troll.


Serpent
They won&#39;t exist.
My point entirely.

[which doctor]

The fact is, not everyone can start their own businesses, the market won&#39;t allow for it.

[redcannon]

hah&#33; this guy had it wrong before he even began his post. "Do you all lack ambition?" Well, we spend the better part of our lives working hard to bring about a system in which equality and freedom exist for everyone. We spend hours reading up on economic theory, historical figures, and different models of government. Many of us are actively involved in regional groups to make our dreams a reality.

Yep, we must really lack ambition, completely unlike the general populace that believes whatever they hear on Fox News or whatever they learn in school.

[peaccenicked]

We only want the world. Thats not much of an ambition to me. It should be ours in the first place.

[Matty_UK]

We don&#39;t have less ambition than anyone, come on man we&#39;re ambitious enough to think we can rally together the workers of the world to destroy servitude, injustice and inequality while bringing freedom and wealth for all, forever.

I think I&#39;m pretty ambitious, but I want to do great things and help people. I recognise that I am not my bank account, I am not my wardrobe, I am not my car, and I am not my job; not everyone has an ambition to be a big CEO leeching off the work of other people.

You say you&#39;re "providing a service;" fair enough, if that&#39;s true then contrary to what other people have said you aren&#39;t exploiting anyone because the profit you generate is the value of your labour, not the value of other people&#39;s labour.

But it&#39;s silly to suggest everyone can be a small businessman....someone has to produce the shit to start with, and furthermore small businesses are dying out, man. How long before the internet is monopolised by big companies and you&#39;re out of a job? There are less and less people capable of being capitalists or petty bourgeois, and eventually you&#39;re going to find yourself out of business and down with the proletarians, working for a new boss instead of being self employed.

[Capitalist Lawyer]

You say you&#39;re "providing a service;" fair enough, if that&#39;s true then contrary to what other people have said you aren&#39;t exploiting anyone because the profit you generate is the value of your labour, not the value of other people&#39;s labour.

Do communists have a problem with this particular arrangement? Exploiting one&#39;s own labor for their own sole benefit? If you can even call it "exploiting".

It&#39;s the whole "hiring of wage labor" that you guys find wrong, correct?

Why?

[blackstone]

That&#39;s excellent that you were able to creat your own online business. Not many people can do that. You said you make good money, can you imagine if everybody on this board, let alone in the country, decided to run their own online business?Especially in the same market you are promoting&#33;? There goes your sales&#33; As another comrade said, the market will not allow everyone to successfully run an online business.

[Matty_UK]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 23, 2007 03:34 pm

You say you&#39;re "providing a service;" fair enough, if that&#39;s true then contrary to what other people have said you aren&#39;t exploiting anyone because the profit you generate is the value of your labour, not the value of other people&#39;s labour.

Do communists have a problem with this particular arrangement? Exploiting one&#39;s own labor for their own sole benefit? If you can even call it "exploiting".

It&#39;s the whole "hiring of wage labor" that you guys find wrong, correct?

Why?

No, we don&#39;t really have a problem with it, at least I don&#39;t. It&#39;s not exploitation, because the profit is just the market value of the small businessman&#39;s labour, providing he isn&#39;t employing anyone.
But of course, generally we don&#39;t trust small businessmen as they usually aspire to be capitalists and dream of having a workforce to siphon off extra profit from. And they usually have the attitude that since they did then anyone can escape from being a proletarian if they tried to.

Do you mean why do we have a problem with waged labour, or why do we have differentiate between businessmen who exploit others and those who don&#39;t?

The problem with waged labour if you want to approach it from an ethical perspective is fairly explanatory...I don&#39;t really think there&#39;s any need to explain why we might have a problem with being routinely underpaid so our employer who does barely any work can live in luxury.

[Invader Zim]

I can&#39;t speak for anyone else, but I do indeed have no ambition and I am very lazy. Hell, I just signed upto do a masters course to avoid work. That is the level of dedication I am willing to put in to avoid getting a real job. I&#39;ve tried work at one of the bottom rungs of the existing system and the one prevailant thought I can muster is &#39;fuck that&#39;. No sir, I&#39;m going to get an MA then middle of the road job which will allow me eat, pay the rent and drink until my liver fails, but not a job which require any actual effort, physical or mental.

[mattnzn]

Originally posted by Matty_UK+July 23, 2007 03:41 pm--> (Matty_UK &#064; July 23, 2007 03:41 pm)
Capitalist [email protected] 23, 2007 03:34 pm

You say you&#39;re "providing a service;" fair enough, if that&#39;s true then contrary to what other people have said you aren&#39;t exploiting anyone because the profit you generate is the value of your labour, not the value of other people&#39;s labour.

Do communists have a problem with this particular arrangement? Exploiting one&#39;s own labor for their own sole benefit? If you can even call it "exploiting".

It&#39;s the whole "hiring of wage labor" that you guys find wrong, correct?

Why?

No, we don&#39;t really have a problem with it, at least I don&#39;t. It&#39;s not exploitation, because the profit is just the market value of the small businessman&#39;s labour, providing he isn&#39;t employing anyone.
But of course, generally we don&#39;t trust small businessmen as they usually aspire to be capitalists and dream of having a workforce to siphon off extra profit from. And they usually have the attitude that since they did then anyone can escape from being a proletarian if they tried to.

Do you mean why do we have a problem with waged labour, or why do we have differentiate between businessmen who exploit others and those who don&#39;t?

The problem with waged labour if you want to approach it from an ethical perspective is fairly explanatory...I don&#39;t really think there&#39;s any need to explain why we might have a problem with being routinely underpaid so our employer who does barely any work can live in luxury. [/b]
So are you only against wage labor? What if a worker receives a good wage and good amount of hours each week that brings in enough money to pay for all the basics, bills, and a few luxuries? Is there a problem with that?

While I do not agree with not paying employees a decent wage, I still do not see how it is "exploiting" others. The workers arent slaves, they can quit and find a higher paying, better job. There are millions of different ways to bring in income, you just have to do a little research.

[mattnzn]

Life is not fair and it&#39;s never going to be fair. Do you really think we will be able to provide every single person on the planet a middle class lifestyle?

[JazzRemington]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 11:23 am
Life is not fair and it&#39;s never going to be fair. Do you really think we will be able to provide every single person on the planet a middle class lifestyle?
This has been addressed many times before, so search for your answer. I&#39;ll give you a little hint: given current and future trends in production technology, yes it is possible for everyone to have as much as they could need.

But saying someone has lack of ambition, or anything, is merely an ad hominem attack. Anytime someone brings up the fact that success is not a general phenomenon but rather an individual one, this person is said to be just cynical or to have a lack of ambition. It doesn&#39;t provide counter-evidence to their assertion, it&#39;s just a way of side stepping the issue by 1) name calling and 2) blaming the victims.

Secondly, the self-employed (especially the constantly self-employed) are an extreme minority in the US (though I lack figures for around the world). The majority of individuals in the US are employed by someone.

Thirdly, you&#39;re an idiot. And if you&#39;re calling me on name calling, see above.

Fourthly, since you seem to like individual success, here&#39;s one for you: For all the semesters I&#39;ve been at school (except for two non-consecutive ones) I&#39;ve been on the dean&#39;s list (for having at least about a B average). My GPA upon graduation should be about 3.5-3.7. I&#39;ve won an academic leadership award in the social sciences. I&#39;ve been accepted to graduate school. I received the highest employee evaluation at my former place of employment. I was promoted as well.

Lack of ambition?

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 05:23 pm
Life is not fair and it&#39;s never going to be fair. Do you really think we will be able to provide every single person on the planet a middle class lifestyle?
Actually, I think you will find there is more than enough food, water, cloathing and commodity in the world for everyone to live in comfort. Individuals and societies which horde their wealth basically kill those cannot or do not.

[Livesoul]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 08:23 am
Life is not fair and it&#39;s never going to be fair. Do you really think we will be able to provide every single person on the planet a middle class lifestyle?
The FACT is that it is possible. How would you sound to someone born outside of our first class borders? Thats the attitude they dread, that slashes hope. Imagine being that person and hearing you say that. The sense I have is that its not neccessary for 30million people to die each year from malnutrition when food is more abundant in the world than ever. It is possible to alleviate the pain and suffering of approx three billion people since all it takes is paper (money). If the USA is 5% of the worlds population and consumes 25% of the worlds resources I would say in theory it would be very easy to provide a better lifestyle for the rest of the world. Look up some stats. If the money used to purchase perfume each year in USA and Europe was directed to programs to provide food and improve living standards in the "third world" it would be possible.

[Matty_UK]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 04:18 pm
So are you only against wage labor? What if a worker receives a good wage and good amount of hours each week that brings in enough money to pay for all the basics, bills, and a few luxuries? Is there a problem with that?

While I do not agree with not paying employees a decent wage, I still do not see how it is "exploiting" others. The workers arent slaves, they can quit and find a higher paying, better job. There are millions of different ways to bring in income, you just have to do a little research.
The worker is STILL getting exploited and deserves to be paid more. People you say "you can always find a new better paid job" have clearly never experienced life at the bottom of the ladder. All employers rip off their workforce, and if you&#39;re working in the retail sector like a lot of people on this forum are, the differences in wage between different employers is negligible. You can learn some skills to get a better job and I recognise that I, personally, am capable of escaping from working the retail sector when I finish uni, and I probably will get out of it one day; but not EVERYONE can do that, there&#39;s only so much room for professionals and small businessmen like yourself, and I&#39;m not a selfish bastard who only cares about my own success.

Look mate, you clearly don&#39;t know a lot about Marxist ideas, so I&#39;ll explain the labour theory of value in simple terms;

Take a medieval market, where artisans and peasants meet in a town square to sell the fruits of their labour and use the money to buy the fruits of someone else&#39;s. It&#39;s pretty much impossible to accumulate wealth in this situation. Why?

Well say it takes an artisan 5 days to make commodity X and 1 day to make commodity Y. Commodity X isn&#39;t going to willingly be sold at the same price as commodity Y for obvious reasons; why work for 5 days to get the same profit some other guy got for working 1 day? So labour time, as the one similarity between all different commodities, acts as a yardstick for price as people aren&#39;t willing to sell for less than the market value of their labour time, and competition prevents them from charging more.

Of course, it&#39;s possible for the price to be lower or higher than what is suitable; what is described above is value, which acts as a magnet for price.

Then along comes Capitalism; wealthy merchants who made money from selling foreign goods where there isn&#39;t any competition start giving landless peasants enough money to live on in exchange for their servitude. As the propertyless peasant has no choice but to sell his labour, he can&#39;t argue that he isn&#39;t being paid enough; if he does, there will always be another landless peasant desperate enough to work. So the wage isn&#39;t as much as the market value of his labour, but the value of his labour is still present in the market place; but most of the profit from this goes to wealthy merchant.

The wealthy merchants became Capitalists, and ultimately accumulated enough capital to build huge factories and seized political power and went about expropriating peasant land.
The landless peasants became Proletarians.

This is how profit comes about in real life. As a self-employed businessman(petty bourgeois), you are paid the market value of your labour. As a proletarian who works in a bar I am paid significantly less than the value of my labour.

If profit doesn&#39;t come from labour, then where does it come from? A factory owner could buy all the parts for a product that are then assembled in his factory. But if he pays for all the seperate parts seperately, how is the result more than the sum of it&#39;s parts? In other words, why can he charge more than simply the cost of all the different components added together?
The answer is because people pay extra for assembly; it is the labour time that adds the extra value.

So we&#39;re being exploited.

Of course this isn&#39;t the only complaint we have about capitalism, but I personally am not satisfied at being paid enough to sustain my ability to work, and a little extra so I can consume and give my money back to the capitalists anyway, while the lazy capitalist is living in luxury because of my work.

Is it unnatural to be indignant at such injustice? Or the sign of a well balanced human being?

[mattnzn]

Originally posted by Livesoul+July 23, 2007 06:10 pm--> (Livesoul &#064; July 23, 2007 06:10 pm)
[email protected] 23, 2007 08:23 am
Life is not fair and it&#39;s never going to be fair. Do you really think we will be able to provide every single person on the planet a middle class lifestyle?
The FACT is that it is possible. How would you sound to someone born outside of our first class borders? Thats the attitude they dread, that slashes hope. Imagine being that person and hearing you say that. The sense I have is that its not neccessary for 30million people to die each year from malnutrition when food is more abundant in the world than ever. It is possible to alleviate the pain and suffering of approx three billion people since all it takes is paper (money). If the USA is 5% of the worlds population and consumes 25% of the worlds resources I would say in theory it would be very easy to provide a better lifestyle for the rest of the world. Look up some stats. If the money used to purchase perfume each year in USA and Europe was directed to programs to provide food and improve living standards in the "third world" it would be possible. [/b]
Why you are upset because some people are living in "luxury" just because they have more material items...nicer cars, bigger house, etc? What is the problem with them living in "luxury" even if they were paying you a good wage/salary?

In fact, being the owner of a business isnt easy like you make it out to be. (assuming they did not come from a family of great wealth). You are calling them lazy, when in fact the truth is that many of them put in far more work than you did. There is a lot of struggle and nearly all go through failures and bankruptcies prior to operating a successful business

[Matty_UK]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 04:23 pm
Life is not fair and it&#39;s never going to be fair. Do you really think we will be able to provide every single person on the planet a middle class lifestyle?
Dude, take a look around, the last 20 years have seen people who work in factories unemployed and taking new jobs working in shops. Shops we didn&#39;t have before and we don&#39;t need. Capitalism is incapable of allowing us all middle class lifestyles, because as production becomes more efficient workers are laid off, as producing too much makes prices lower, so new capital is generated from exploiting workers in useless service jobs rather than jobs than make us wealthier as a society.

In a socialist revolution we could expand industry and make more than enough for everyone to be wealthy; if advances in production require less workers, GOOD&#33; We can simply divide up the work and people can have more wealth for less work. Useless jobs can be brushed aside, and people will be richer with more free time.

[Matty_UK]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 06:40 pm
In fact, being the owner of a business isnt easy like you make it out to be. (assuming they did not come from a family of great wealth). You are calling them lazy, when in fact the truth is that many of them put in far more work than you did. There is a lot of struggle and nearly all go through failures and bankruptcies prior to operating a successful business
They might have put in a lot of work to expand their business empire, but their profit still comes from us, the workers, and the reward for their work is disproportionate, especially as their work is entirely selfish and doesn&#39;t produce anything for society.

I don&#39;t care if they came from a working class background; the vast majority of them DON&#39;T and inherit the business off daddy, and even if they are working class they aren&#39;t any more and they&#39;re still exploiting us.

I&#39;m not too lazy or ambitious to become an "entrepreneur," I just don&#39;t want to be one. I have solid values and won&#39;t exploit my fellow working man.

And you haven&#39;t replied to my post about how we&#39;re exploited. I don&#39;t mind chatting to anti-communists but you have to at least listen to our arguments and not just troll around with tired rhetoric.

[Livesoul]

Originally posted by mattnzn+July 23, 2007 10:40 am--> (mattnzn @ July 23, 2007 10:40 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 06:10 pm

[email protected] 23, 2007 08:23 am
Life is not fair and it&#39;s never going to be fair. Do you really think we will be able to provide every single person on the planet a middle class lifestyle?
The FACT is that it is possible. How would you sound to someone born outside of our first class borders? Thats the attitude they dread, that slashes hope. Imagine being that person and hearing you say that. The sense I have is that its not neccessary for 30million people to die each year from malnutrition when food is more abundant in the world than ever. It is possible to alleviate the pain and suffering of approx three billion people since all it takes is paper (money). If the USA is 5% of the worlds population and consumes 25% of the worlds resources I would say in theory it would be very easy to provide a better lifestyle for the rest of the world. Look up some stats. If the money used to purchase perfume each year in USA and Europe was directed to programs to provide food and improve living standards in the "third world" it would be possible.
Why you are upset because some people are living in "luxury" just because they have more material items...nicer cars, bigger house, etc? What is the problem with them living in "luxury" even if they were paying you a good wage/salary?

In fact, being the owner of a business isnt easy like you make it out to be. (assuming they did not come from a family of great wealth). You are calling them lazy, when in fact the truth is that many of them put in far more work than you did. There is a lot of struggle and nearly all go through failures and bankruptcies prior to operating a successful business [/b]
Hmmm...i&#39;m not sure if you were actually responding to my statement. However your statement deserves many many responses. There wouldn&#39;t be much wrong if they lived in luxury and ACTUALLY DID pay decent wages. However the opposite is true, and i&#39;m talking about big business. There is too much info to give, but if your sincere and have a decent imagination i would recommend watching "THE CORPORATION". Maybe you&#39;ll find some enlightment on the issue.

[mattnzn]

Everyone on here loves to play the victim card. You act like being in the working class if some kind of evil conspiracy and trap by the upper class to "exploit you." How come I know so many people personally that were the same class and overcame it...whether it involved smartly saving or investing their money to going out on their own. My grandparents used to be very poor and are now very financially secure because they made smart decisions with the money they earned....and they never had their own business and they never brought in huge amounts of income. My grandmother worked in an assembly line at a factory. My grandfather was a mechanic.

Business profits come from their customers who WILLINGLY purchase their products, not from the workers. The workers help produce/manufacture/sell the products. So IF the workers are being treated badly and being paid severly low wages/salaries that is the fault of the owner. Not all owners are like this...look at Google...everyone wants to work there, they pay really good and their employees have a lot of fun. The owners are worth &#036;14 billion but they drive a Prius and live in a 2 bedroom apartment. Not all "capitalists" are evil and "exploit" workers.

If someone is unable to escape the "viscious cycle" of the working class, then personally, I believe it&#39;s their own fault. We all have struggles in life, you just have to put in the will and effort to overcome them. And if you do become rich and powerful in the process you have the option to donate all that money and use it how you wish, including helping others.

[mattnzn]

Originally posted by Livesoul+July 23, 2007 07:00 pm--> (Livesoul &#064; July 23, 2007 07:00 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 10:40 am

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 06:10 pm

[email protected] 23, 2007 08:23 am
Life is not fair and it&#39;s never going to be fair. Do you really think we will be able to provide every single person on the planet a middle class lifestyle?
The FACT is that it is possible. How would you sound to someone born outside of our first class borders? Thats the attitude they dread, that slashes hope. Imagine being that person and hearing you say that. The sense I have is that its not neccessary for 30million people to die each year from malnutrition when food is more abundant in the world than ever. It is possible to alleviate the pain and suffering of approx three billion people since all it takes is paper (money). If the USA is 5% of the worlds population and consumes 25% of the worlds resources I would say in theory it would be very easy to provide a better lifestyle for the rest of the world. Look up some stats. If the money used to purchase perfume each year in USA and Europe was directed to programs to provide food and improve living standards in the "third world" it would be possible.
Why you are upset because some people are living in "luxury" just because they have more material items...nicer cars, bigger house, etc? What is the problem with them living in "luxury" even if they were paying you a good wage/salary?

In fact, being the owner of a business isnt easy like you make it out to be. (assuming they did not come from a family of great wealth). You are calling them lazy, when in fact the truth is that many of them put in far more work than you did. There is a lot of struggle and nearly all go through failures and bankruptcies prior to operating a successful business
Hmmm...i&#39;m not sure if you were actually responding to my statement. However your statement deserves many many responses. There wouldn&#39;t be much wrong if they lived in luxury and ACTUALLY DID pay decent wages. However the opposite is true, and i&#39;m talking about big business. There is too much info to give, but if your sincere and have a decent imagination i would recommend watching "THE CORPORATION". Maybe you&#39;ll find some enlightment on the issue. [/b]
If you&#39;re talking about corporations like Wal-Mart then I do agree. I can&#39;t stand Wal-Mart, not only did the owners not have to do anything except inherit it all, they are greedy and rarely give to charity and they treat their employees like crap. Sam Walton must be rolling in his grave

[Matty_UK]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 07:02 pm
Everyone on here loves to play the victim card. You act like being in the working class if some kind of evil conspiracy and trap by the upper class to "exploit you." How come I know so many people personally that were the same class and overcame it...whether it involved smartly saving or investing their money to going out on their own. My grandparents used to be very poor and are now very financially secure because they made smart decisions with the money they earned....and they never had their own business and they never brought in huge amounts of income. My grandmother worked in an assembly line at a factory. My grandfather was a mechanic.

Business profits come from their customers who WILLINGLY purchase their products, not from the workers. The workers help produce/manufacture/sell the products. So IF the workers are being treated badly and being paid severly low wages/salaries that is the fault of the owner. Not all owners are like this...look at Google...everyone wants to work there, they pay really good and their employees have a lot of fun. The owners are worth &#036;14 billion but they drive a Prius and live in a 2 bedroom apartment. Not all "capitalists" are evil and "exploit" workers.

If someone is unable to escape the "viscious cycle" of the working class, then personally, I believe it&#39;s their own fault. We all have struggles in life, you just have to put in the will and effort to overcome them. And if you do become rich and powerful in the process you have the option to donate all that money and use it how you wish, including helping others.
Look, I usually try to be polite to people in Opposing Ideologies and explain my views without getting angry, but you&#39;re just trolling; try arguing against our ideas, not insulting us.

I don&#39;t give a fuck if you know a lot of people who got out of the proletariat.

Can you explain how a capitalist economy without a proletariat could work?

Can you explain why those who there wasn&#39;t room for at the top deserve to suffer? If all of society worked ridiculously hard and smart, there still wouldn&#39;t be room for everyone to be a small businessman.

And you ignored my explanation of the Labour Theory of Value.

Profit DOES NOT come from people willingly buying products; that is income. Profit is income minus cost of wages (variable capital) and other expenditures, machinery etc. (constant capital) Where does the extra bit come from?

Why are people willing to pay more than the cost of the parts? They are paying for the labour involved in production&#33;

So how is the businessman accumulating capital if wages aren&#39;t less than the value they add to a commodity. If wages were the same as the market value of labour, then there would be no profit as income would only cover expenditure&#33;

[Livesoul]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 11:02 am
Everyone on here loves to play the victim card. You act like being in the working class if some kind of evil conspiracy and trap by the upper class to "exploit you." How come I know so many people personally that were the same class and overcame it...whether it involved smartly saving or investing their money to going out on their own. My grandparents used to be very poor and are now very financially secure because they made smart decisions with the money they earned....and they never had their own business and they never brought in huge amounts of income. My grandmother worked in an assembly line at a factory. My grandfather was a mechanic.

Business profits come from their customers who WILLINGLY purchase their products, not from the workers. The workers help produce/manufacture/sell the products. So IF the workers are being treated badly and being paid severly low wages/salaries that is the fault of the owner. Not all owners are like this...look at Google...everyone wants to work there, they pay really good and their employees have a lot of fun. The owners are worth &#036;14 billion but they drive a Prius and live in a 2 bedroom apartment. Not all "capitalists" are evil and "exploit" workers.

If someone is unable to escape the "viscious cycle" of the working class, then personally, I believe it&#39;s their own fault. We all have struggles in life, you just have to put in the will and effort to overcome them. And if you do become rich and powerful in the process you have the option to donate all that money and use it how you wish, including helping others.
Well I don&#39;t know if everyone is calling themselves victims. At least i&#39;m not, i am extremely fortunate to have been born on the inside of the US border. Thats what dictates your lifestyle, not the decisions you make. You know more than a 1/3 of the world lives on &#036;1 per day. Can you imagine how that would be? Could you buy enough food per day? Would there by money for ANYTHING else? Of course not, and there are no opportunities for change in that environment because of the lack of resources. They aren&#39;t even able to farm for themselves as well anymore because of the changes in global warming caused by human activity. There are more droughts, more corporations controlling agriculture through food trade policies and patents, and less awareness. You know its fact that the higher class and middle class gap is growing much larger?

Regarding customers who "willingly" purchase their products. Thats a perspective based on a false reality. Your looking at things from the surface pal. Not only are you unwillingly forced to purchase their products locally, but internationally governments are forced to buy trademarked medicines at ridiculous prices, purchase foods/seeds from companies that trademarked strains of crop (forcing them to use that strain because it meets "trade requirements", they also must buy the strain from them, genetically engineered the plant to not reproduce seeds, and outlawed saving or trading seeds amongst others), borrower money at high rates to temporarily reduce poverty, abide by guidelines set by the donars on the uses of money (indirect form of repression and cohersion), etc...

And regarding google...they have partnered with some of the worst corporations in history...time warner, news corp...

[mattnzn]

Originally posted by Matty_UK+July 23, 2007 07:17 pm--> (Matty_UK &#064; July 23, 2007 07:17 pm)
[email protected] 23, 2007 07:02 pm
Everyone on here loves to play the victim card. You act like being in the working class if some kind of evil conspiracy and trap by the upper class to "exploit you." How come I know so many people personally that were the same class and overcame it...whether it involved smartly saving or investing their money to going out on their own. My grandparents used to be very poor and are now very financially secure because they made smart decisions with the money they earned....and they never had their own business and they never brought in huge amounts of income. My grandmother worked in an assembly line at a factory. My grandfather was a mechanic.

Business profits come from their customers who WILLINGLY purchase their products, not from the workers. The workers help produce/manufacture/sell the products. So IF the workers are being treated badly and being paid severly low wages/salaries that is the fault of the owner. Not all owners are like this...look at Google...everyone wants to work there, they pay really good and their employees have a lot of fun. The owners are worth &#036;14 billion but they drive a Prius and live in a 2 bedroom apartment. Not all "capitalists" are evil and "exploit" workers.

If someone is unable to escape the "viscious cycle" of the working class, then personally, I believe it&#39;s their own fault. We all have struggles in life, you just have to put in the will and effort to overcome them. And if you do become rich and powerful in the process you have the option to donate all that money and use it how you wish, including helping others.
Look, I usually try to be polite to people in Opposing Ideologies and explain my views without getting angry, but you&#39;re just trolling; try arguing against our ideas, not insulting us.

I don&#39;t give a fuck if you know a lot of people who got out of the proletariat.

Can you explain how a capitalist economy without a proletariat could work?

Can you explain why those who there wasn&#39;t room for at the top deserve to suffer? If all of society worked ridiculously hard and smart, there still wouldn&#39;t be room for everyone to be a small businessman.

And you ignored my explanation of the Labour Theory of Value.

Profit DOES NOT come from people willingly buying products; that is income. Profit is income minus cost of wages (variable capital) and other expenditures, machinery etc. (constant capital)

You are yet to explain how the businessman is accumulating capital if wages aren&#39;t less than the value they add to a commodity. If wages were the same as the market value of labour, then there would be no profit as income would only cover expenditure&#33; [/b]
I&#39;m just trolling? Yeah okay....sorry for stating my opinion and sorry for not agreeing with communism and socialism. What is wrong with being a middle class worker? Not everyone wants to live in a mansion and have a fleet of sports cars. You make it out that there are only two classes: the rich and the poor. That&#39;s not the case in the United States. Seems like your hatred for capitalists is fueled by jealousy because some guy drives by in a Ferrari while you&#39;re driving a Ford Focus...am I corect?

[JazzRemington]

Originally posted by mattnzn
How come I know so many people personally that were the same class and overcame it...whether it involved smartly saving or investing their money to going out on their own.

Logical fallacy: anecdotal evidence. You&#39;re claiming that because an insignificant minority (not even 1/100 of 1%) can do something then anyone and everyone can. We&#39;re talking about objective facts. Who or what you know from subjective, non-scientific, anecdotal observations does not matter in this case.


You act like being in the working class if some kind of evil conspiracy and trap by the upper class to "exploit you."

It&#39;s not some "conspiracy" and it&#39;s not the upper class that "exploits us." We&#39;re talking about the working class of the world, not us or me or you. It&#39;s no some conspiracy, but the effect of the capitalist class following its own self-interest, whether they know it or not or are conscious of it does not matter.


Business profits come from their customers who WILLINGLY purchase their products, not from the workers.

Partly, because if a good is not purchased than the capitalist who put it up for sale would not receive the money for it (and by extension his profit). But any economic system is not merely consumption, for focusing merely on people&#39;s consumption ignores production and distribution, which are equally important.

But you don&#39;t willingly do anything. Everything that individuals do is because they are responding to their innate biological needs, which drives all of their decisions. People need to eat, for instance. They can&#39;t choose not to.


The workers help produce/manufacture/sell the products. So IF the workers are being treated badly and being paid severly low wages/salaries that is the fault of the owner.

In reality, it&#39;s the other way around. The workers DO produce and sell the products. It&#39;s the capitalist that helps the workers, if anything. Providing capital is not a productive act because it is merely giving permission to use something. Without human labor power the capital is completely worthless and unable to do anything. In any given at any point in society, human labor power is the primary reason for its stability and longevity.


Not all owners are like this...look at Google...everyone wants to work there, they pay really good and their employees have a lot of fun.

The only reason the company offers such benefits is because its services and products are needed and bought. But perhaps if things turned around, we would would see otherwise. And we have. For instance, Gary, Indiana was once a thriving town based on the steel industry. When the industry moved out, Gary went down hill and up until about a year or so ago had the highest violent crime rate in the US.


The owners are worth &#036;14 billion but they drive a Prius and live in a 2 bedroom apartment.

OK, perhaps you could tell us what the mean income of the workers are in said business? You claim the workers themselves are well paid but you give us an example of the people who own the business.


Not all "capitalists" are evil and "exploit" workers.

Being evil has nothing to do with it. It&#39;s an objective fact that the capitalists live off the surplus labor workers generate and it is in their self-interest to obtain as much as possible. Period.


If someone is unable to escape the "viscious cycle" of the working class, then personally, I believe it&#39;s their own fault.

Once again, you are blaming the victim. You are giving examples of a very, very small minority of people becoming rich and claiming anyone and everyone can do it. And then saying it&#39;s the vast majority&#39;s fault for not being like them. By that logic, the Great Depression was the workers&#39; fault because they didn&#39;t just get jobs.


And if you do become rich and powerful in the process you have the option to donate all that money and use it how you wish, including helping others.

It happens, for sure. But compared to how much these rich people are actually worth, the amount they donate is minute.


All in all, your post is about what I would expect for a right winger: full of anecdotal evidence, subjective evaluations made to appear objective, and just plain wrong information.

[mattnzn]

Once again, I believe in a strong middle class. What is wrong with being a middle class person? Not everyone has to be rich.

I know you have compassion for those in the lower classes, but isnt that what welfare is for? They have government housing by me (brand new, luxury apartments), I see these people driving brand new H2 hummers...maybe if they would spend their money better they wouldnt be in the position they are in. Thus, that is why I believe it is your own fault if you are poor, making bad decisions with your money. Please correct me with some proper evidence if I&#39;m wrong.

I&#39;m not saying Capitalism is perfect, but it&#39;s the best we have. I have yet to see successful implementation of communism or socialism. I think we should spend time to make corrections to our current system.

[Jazzratt]

Just noticed this thread, so first things first:


Do you really think we will be able to provide every single person on the planet a middle class lifestyle?

A middle class lifestyle? And we&#39;re the ones who lack ambition&#33; In a post-scarcity society people could live however they damn well please.


I&#39;m just trolling?

Pretty much. Odds are you&#39;ll probably not even be here next week.


Yeah okay....sorry for stating my opinion and sorry for not agreeing with communism and socialism. What is wrong with being a middle class worker?

Define "middle class", it seems to me to be an utterly arbitrary division based simply on wage with no connection to the relationship a person has to the means of production.


Not everyone wants to live in a mansion and have a fleet of sports cars.

Yes, and?


You make it out that there are only two classes: the rich and the poor.

No actually, you&#39;re unbelievably wrong, probably because you&#39;re a stupid fucking arse socket. We view the world to have four or five classes, each one distinguished not by income but by the relationship they have to the means of production.


Seems like your hatred for capitalists is fueled by jealousy because some guy drives by in a Ferrari while you&#39;re driving a Ford Focus...am I corect?

Some of it is, there is no point in denying that seeing people who have various possessions that you could never acquire without resorting to theft (much like the leaching class do). This however isn&#39;t the main reason, the main reason is - naturally - the great injustice self-evident in the capitalist method of distribution. Mix these with the fact the capitalist price-system economy is inefficient to a staggering degree and you have the reason many of us become leftists.

Why is it you choose to follow your ideology? A deep seated loathing for the proletariat? A massive chubby for inefficiency? Or is that you get soggy at the thought that someone is jealous of your possessions but is forced into a situation whereby they cannot gain access to similar possessions for themselves?

[mattnzn]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 07:41 pm
Just noticed this thread, so first things first:


Do you really think we will be able to provide every single person on the planet a middle class lifestyle?

A middle class lifestyle? And we&#39;re the ones who lack ambition&#33; In a post-scarcity society people could live however they damn well please.


I&#39;m just trolling?

Pretty much. Odds are you&#39;ll probably not even be here next week.


Yeah okay....sorry for stating my opinion and sorry for not agreeing with communism and socialism. What is wrong with being a middle class worker?

Define "middle class", it seems to me to be an utterly arbitrary division based simply on wage with no connection to the relationship a person has to the means of production.


Not everyone wants to live in a mansion and have a fleet of sports cars.

Yes, and?


You make it out that there are only two classes: the rich and the poor.

No actually, you&#39;re unbelievably wrong, probably because you&#39;re a stupid fucking arse socket. We view the world to have four or five classes, each one distinguished not by income but by the relationship they have to the means of production.


Seems like your hatred for capitalists is fueled by jealousy because some guy drives by in a Ferrari while you&#39;re driving a Ford Focus...am I corect?

Some of it is, there is no point in denying that seeing people who have various possessions that you could never acquire without resorting to theft (much like the leaching class do). This however isn&#39;t the main reason, the main reason is - naturally - the great injustice self-evident in the capitalist method of distribution. Mix these with the fact the capitalist price-system economy is inefficient to a staggering degree and you have the reason many of us become leftists.

Why is it you choose to follow your ideology? A deep seated loathing for the proletariat? A massive chubby for inefficiency? Or is that you get soggy at the thought that someone is jealous of your possessions but is forced into a situation whereby they cannot gain access to similar possessions for themselves?
Do me a favor. Just ban me now so that I don&#39;t continue to waste my time. We can all see your maturity....having to resort to adolescent name calling. I&#39;m a strong believer in competition...I guess the truth is that you have always been a loser and always will be.

I&#39;ll be awaiting your "revolution" good thing that it will never happen in my lifetime. Meanwhile, as a capitalist...I will "keep enslaving, poor innocent workers like yourself and sentence them to a lifetime of pain and misery." :rolleyes:

By the way, Che shirts are on sale&#33;&#33;&#33; http://www.che-mart.com

Later kid

[bootleg42]

Originally posted by mattnzn+July 23, 2007 07:22 pm--> (mattnzn @ July 23, 2007 07:22 pm)
[email protected] 23, 2007 07:17 pm


Can you explain how a capitalist economy without a proletariat could work?

Can you explain why those who there wasn&#39;t room for at the top deserve to suffer? If all of society worked ridiculously hard and smart, there still wouldn&#39;t be room for everyone to be a small businessman.

And you ignored my explanation of the Labour Theory of Value.

Profit DOES NOT come from people willingly buying products; that is income. Profit is income minus cost of wages (variable capital) and other expenditures, machinery etc. (constant capital)

You are yet to explain how the businessman is accumulating capital if wages aren&#39;t less than the value they add to a commodity. If wages were the same as the market value of labour, then there would be no profit as income would only cover expenditure&#33;
I&#39;m just trolling? Yeah okay....sorry for stating my opinion and sorry for not agreeing with communism and socialism. What is wrong with being a middle class worker? Not everyone wants to live in a mansion and have a fleet of sports cars. You make it out that there are only two classes: the rich and the poor. That&#39;s not the case in the United States. Seems like your hatred for capitalists is fueled by jealousy because some guy drives by in a Ferrari while you&#39;re driving a Ford Focus...am I corect? [/b]
Read carefully and you&#39;ll see why you&#39;re trolling. If this was a school assignment, you&#39;d fail NOT because of your opinion but because you only make statements and no argument other than your opinon. Matty UK is trying to address 4 topics to you in that post:

1. "Can you explain how a capitalist economy without a proletariat could work?"

2. "Can you explain why those who there wasn&#39;t room for at the top deserve to suffer?"

3. " you ignored my explanation of the Labour Theory of Value."

4. "You are yet to explain how the businessman is accumulating capital if wages aren&#39;t less than the value they add to a commodity."

And your responce was more or less:

"Seems like your hatred for capitalists is fueled by jealousy because some guy drives by in a Ferrari while you&#39;re driving a Ford Focus...am I corect?"

Notice you didn&#39;t directly address the topics at hand one by one??? If this was school, you&#39;d fail because you didn&#39;t answer the topic at hand, not because of your opinon. There are some capitalists here who when they argue, they at least address the topics. They make a statement (like you did) and they THEN make an arguement that does not contain opinion but actual stats and political/social arguments you&#39;d find in college textbooks or something to that matter.

You&#39;re not doing this, which means you&#39;re just trolling. Understand why we say this please.

[Matty_UK]

mattnzn, you have the worst debating skills ever. You haven&#39;t acknowledged a single properly constructed arguments and seem to only be capable of saying that we can become middle class if we worked hard and suggesting we&#39;re motivated by jealousy. Ad hominem garbage.

I suspect you&#39;re either an outright troll, or one of those nerdy right wing kids who&#39;s going on the internet pretending that he run&#39;s a business, and you&#39;re more interested in making us think you&#39;re more successful than we are than actually having a reasoned debate. Someone fully grown could not have such poor critical thinking skills.

[RNK]

LOL that was an awesome yet utterly pathetic attempt to cause emotional harm over the internetz. I really liked the "later kid" thrown in at the end, as if anyone here would actually be offended and upset by such a lame tactic.

Also, if you have so little control over yourself that you feel you need to be banned to stay away... seek help.

[R_P_A_S]

once again we have wasted our lives and time with ignorant fools.
very progressive comrades. fuck this OI forum. <_<

[RNK]

I know eh? 95% of the restricted fucktards in OI should just be banned for being trolls. This isn&#39;t daycare. RevLeft shouldn&#39;t be looking after these ignorant dumbasses who do nothing but come up with the same old one-liners and trollish stereotypical anti-communist remarks.

[Ol' Dirty]

I provide an online service for other people

May I ask what your service is, specificaly? Could you tell me what you do? :)

[Publius]

May I ask what your service is, specificaly? Could you tell me what you do? :)

I think it&#39;s something like this:

InternetDude1237: So, are you a hot chick?
Mattznh0tchick97: Yeah, for the right price.
InternetDude1237: Do you like to Role Play?
Mattznh0tchick97: I like it when people PayPal me money.

And so on and so forth.

[which doctor]

To be completely honest, if I found such an opportunity to make easy money online providing a "service" or whatever, I&#39;d jump at it.

[Dr Mindbender]

well if you do, just dont pretend you&#39;re some sort of &#39;moral champion&#39; like the thread starter.

The fact he was so tight lipped about the nature of his business makes it sound very dodgy to me.

[Axel1917]

Originally posted by Ulster [email protected] 24, 2007 07:05 pm
well if you do, just dont pretend you&#39;re some sort of &#39;moral champion&#39; like the thread starter.

The fact he was so tight lipped about the nature of his business makes it sound very dodgy to me.
This is a valid point. Dodgy indeed.

I have a lot of ambition towards leftist theory and practice, so much that many around here seem to fine me boring and being in dire need of lightening up.

[Capitalist Lawyer]

Fourthly, since you seem to like individual success, here&#39;s one for you: For all the semesters I&#39;ve been at school (except for two non-consecutive ones) I&#39;ve been on the dean&#39;s list (for having at least about a B average). My GPA upon graduation should be about 3.5-3.7. I&#39;ve won an academic leadership award in the social sciences. I&#39;ve been accepted to graduate school. I received the highest employee evaluation at my former place of employment. I was promoted as well.

Hey, good for you.

Now how are you going to pay back your massive debt? You can&#39;t make a living being a student.

[Tower of Bebel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 11:12 pm
Constantly complaining how you are oppressed and work as a slave to barely get by. I don&#39;t like jobs either, or working for other people. But instead of sitting around and whining about it I started my own online business.

Self-employed, I provide an online service for other people, takes me about 5-10 minutes per to run, and I make great money. No one works for me either. I have plans to expand of course.

Why don&#39;t you all do something similiar? Or it just seems to be that the far left liberal mentality is to never take any initiative for yourself.
No, we just admit that capitalism produces more pain and tears than joy. If you believe in justice and know that most of the produced wealth gets looted by a minority, then you will be like us. Don&#39;t you dare to ignore the fact that of all the produced wealth less than half of it returns to the people who produced it.

[JazzRemington]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 25, 2007 11:16 am

Fourthly, since you seem to like individual success, here&#39;s one for you: For all the semesters I&#39;ve been at school (except for two non-consecutive ones) I&#39;ve been on the dean&#39;s list (for having at least about a B average). My GPA upon graduation should be about 3.5-3.7. I&#39;ve won an academic leadership award in the social sciences. I&#39;ve been accepted to graduate school. I received the highest employee evaluation at my former place of employment. I was promoted as well.

Hey, good for you.

Now how are you going to pay back your massive debt? You can&#39;t make a living being a student.
eh, for my undergrad I received tuition waver because my dad worked in the computer tech department at the school I was going to. Basically, I didn&#39;t have to pay tuition, but I did have to pay for room+board (they didn&#39;t have dorms, so it wasn&#39;t an issue), books, technology fees, and any other non-tuition related expenses. Luckily, I was living at home so I don&#39;t owe the school anything.

As for grad school, I have federal subsidized and unsubsidized loans, from which I have taken the maximum possible. When I graduate, I will probably end up teaching at a university or working at a research firm. I wouldn&#39;t have relatively that much to pay back, only some &#036;18,000...when compared to about &#036;50,588 in debt for loans for grad and undergrad for the average grad student (not counting interest).

[Capitalist Lawyer]

eh, for my undergrad I received tuition waver because my dad worked in the computer tech department at the school I was going to. Basically, I didn&#39;t have to pay tuition, but I did have to pay for room+board (they didn&#39;t have dorms, so it wasn&#39;t an issue), books, technology fees, and any other non-tuition related expenses. Luckily, I was living at home so I don&#39;t owe the school anything.

That&#39;s quite an impressive resume there; how earth did you become a communist?

Guilt?


. When I graduate, I will probably end up teaching at a university or working at a research firm.

Sure you will, Mr. Privileged Communist Sir.

The Ph.D. Glut (http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north427.html)

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by Capitalist Lawyer+--> (Capitalist Lawyer)That&#39;s quite an impressive resume there; how earth did you become a communist? [/b]
so all communists are academic failures?
Condenscending shithawk. :angry:

Capitalist Lawyer

Sure you will, Mr. Privileged Communist Sir.
teachers and research firm workers still contribute labour, unlike private entrepreneurs.
The cappies are the ones attaching high monetary value to their works.

[Axel1917]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 25, 2007 04:16 pm

Fourthly, since you seem to like individual success, here&#39;s one for you: For all the semesters I&#39;ve been at school (except for two non-consecutive ones) I&#39;ve been on the dean&#39;s list (for having at least about a B average). My GPA upon graduation should be about 3.5-3.7. I&#39;ve won an academic leadership award in the social sciences. I&#39;ve been accepted to graduate school. I received the highest employee evaluation at my former place of employment. I was promoted as well.

Hey, good for you.

Now how are you going to pay back your massive debt? You can&#39;t make a living being a student.
Massive debt and that seemingly good possiblity of having that debt and not getting a job in what I trained in are what keeps me from going to back to college (I did not like what I was majoring in, and the job prospects tanked over time, so I quit, in spite of doing well and making the dean&#39;s list.). I would probably almost be more willing to gamble on the stock exchange or buy a house in this crap market than go back to college, and I am not the kind of guy that trusts his life to a roulette wheel&#33;

[Dr Mindbender]

student debt is the weapon currently being weilded by pro-bourgieouse parties to dissuade the prol from going to university. In the first year that it is brought into the UK, it would have cost £19million to give each student a free university year. The same year the UK govt donated £19m worth of hawk bombers to Indonesia which were used in campaigns where many civillians were killed.
http://www.marxist.com/tsunami-charity-donations170105.htm

[fabiansocialist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 04:40 am
The fact is, not everyone can start their own businesses, the market won&#39;t allow for it.
Those that do, and whose businesses survive because of guile, fraud, or sheer good luck, always portray themselves as innovative, progressive, hard-working, entrepreunerial types the rest of us should emulate (if only we would get off our worthless behinds...). What may work for an individual (though the odds are against it) doesn&#39;t therefore mean it&#39;ll work for everyone. And I notice this particular individual is being coy about what sort of "service" he provides, probably because if we all did the same, his own would sink. Hence his vague, general, and consequently worthless "advice."

[Dr Mindbender]

its not &#39;advice&#39; anyway, its called &#39;trolling&#39;.

[fabiansocialist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 01:52 am
once again we have wasted our lives and time with ignorant fools.
very progressive comrades. fuck this OI forum. <_<
Sure. This particular individual probably sleeps with an Ayn Rand book under his pillow.

[JazzRemington]

That&#39;s quite an impressive resume there; how earth did you become a communist?

Guilt?

Guilt, what? If I would&#39;ve known I would&#39;ve gotten a smart-assed comment I wouldn&#39;t have answered what I wrongly assumed to be an honest question. If I didn&#39;t know any better, I could&#39;ve sworn you were pissed because I some how broke your self-conceived notion that all communists are hippie, low-aspiring college students.

Me being a communist has nothing to do with guilt. It&#39;s called being objective, self-critical, honest, and scientific. If you cared to notice some of my posts, they tend to not be subjective or based on morality.


Sure you will, Mr. Privileged Communist Sir.

Mr. Condescending, especially for throwing biased nonsense that makes overly broad statements without qualifying them with concrete data and reliable sources (except for his use of the Abstract).

[Matty_UK]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 26, 2007 05:38 pm

eh, for my undergrad I received tuition waver because my dad worked in the computer tech department at the school I was going to. Basically, I didn&#39;t have to pay tuition, but I did have to pay for room+board (they didn&#39;t have dorms, so it wasn&#39;t an issue), books, technology fees, and any other non-tuition related expenses. Luckily, I was living at home so I don&#39;t owe the school anything.

That&#39;s quite an impressive resume there; how earth did you become a communist?

Guilt?


. When I graduate, I will probably end up teaching at a university or working at a research firm.

Sure you will, Mr. Privileged Communist Sir.

The Ph.D. Glut (http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north427.html)
Capitalist Lawyer, do you not think it&#39;s a tad unfair to say all communists are communists because either they are jealous failures, or guilt ridden success stories?
Maybe it has more to do with both a moral conviction and the strength of Marxist critiques of capitalism?

[Mujer Libre]

This whole thread is bullshit- ambition implies only that someone is working towards a goal. Just because we don&#39;t think robbing workers is a worthwhile goal doesn&#39;t mean we have ambitions... As someone said earlier- revolution is quite a large ambition.

Also- people have other ambitions in their lives on a smaller scale. I know I&#39;ve been working bloody hard lately to get my degree while keeping my job so you know... I can EAT.

[Never Give In]

Originally posted by mattnzn+July 23, 2007 03:45 pm--> (mattnzn @ July 23, 2007 03:45 pm)
[email protected] 23, 2007 07:41 pm
Just noticed this thread, so first things first:


Do you really think we will be able to provide every single person on the planet a middle class lifestyle?

A middle class lifestyle? And we&#39;re the ones who lack ambition&#33; In a post-scarcity society people could live however they damn well please.


I&#39;m just trolling?

Pretty much. Odds are you&#39;ll probably not even be here next week.


Yeah okay....sorry for stating my opinion and sorry for not agreeing with communism and socialism. What is wrong with being a middle class worker?

Define "middle class", it seems to me to be an utterly arbitrary division based simply on wage with no connection to the relationship a person has to the means of production.


Not everyone wants to live in a mansion and have a fleet of sports cars.

Yes, and?


You make it out that there are only two classes: the rich and the poor.

No actually, you&#39;re unbelievably wrong, probably because you&#39;re a stupid fucking arse socket. We view the world to have four or five classes, each one distinguished not by income but by the relationship they have to the means of production.


Seems like your hatred for capitalists is fueled by jealousy because some guy drives by in a Ferrari while you&#39;re driving a Ford Focus...am I corect?

Some of it is, there is no point in denying that seeing people who have various possessions that you could never acquire without resorting to theft (much like the leaching class do). This however isn&#39;t the main reason, the main reason is - naturally - the great injustice self-evident in the capitalist method of distribution. Mix these with the fact the capitalist price-system economy is inefficient to a staggering degree and you have the reason many of us become leftists.

Why is it you choose to follow your ideology? A deep seated loathing for the proletariat? A massive chubby for inefficiency? Or is that you get soggy at the thought that someone is jealous of your possessions but is forced into a situation whereby they cannot gain access to similar possessions for themselves?
Do me a favor. Just ban me now so that I don&#39;t continue to waste my time. We can all see your maturity....having to resort to adolescent name calling. I&#39;m a strong believer in competition...I guess the truth is that you have always been a loser and always will be.

I&#39;ll be awaiting your "revolution" good thing that it will never happen in my lifetime. Meanwhile, as a capitalist...I will "keep enslaving, poor innocent workers like yourself and sentence them to a lifetime of pain and misery." :rolleyes:

By the way, Che shirts are on sale&#33;&#33;&#33; http://www.che-mart.com

Later kid [/b]
xD, Jazzratt, among others, argued back so well he actually begged for banning. "Later Kid"...was I supposed to be offended? Che Shirts are on sale? SHIT I WANT ONE.