When will the workers get fed up?

[Psy]

When the bulk of the workers get tried of breaking their back for measly wages to the point they walk off their jobs and refuse to work for the bourgeoisie (like when a mule refuses to do any more work)? Yes there was some cases here and there, Paris 1968 and Argentina 2002 but never wide spread and workers eventually caved in, I'm talking when will workers around the world will in refuse to spend one more hour working under the capitalist system?

I ask because all I am tired of working and see my co-workers are but we keep working with little to show for our effort.

[RedAnarchist]

Without being organised, workers wont demand change. Most workers in the world today are not organised. The Revolutionary Left has been hit by propoganda and lies a lot over the past 150 or so years, so its going to take a bit more work before the workers will take the power off the rulers.

I can't be sure, but I think that we will begin to see some sparks, probbaly in Latin America. Dont be surprised if there is a successful revolution in Latin America within the next 30 years. And each and every victory for the Left means we are one step closer to a world without capitalism.

[Red October]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21, 2007 11:08 am
Without being organised, workers wont demand change. Most workers in the world today are not organised. The Revolutionary Left has been hit by propoganda and lies a lot over the past 150 or so years, so its going to take a bit more work before the workers will take the power off the rulers.

I can't be sure, but I think that we will begin to see some sparks, probbaly in Latin America. Dont be surprised if there is a successful revolution in Latin America within the next 30 years. And each and every victory for the Left means we are one step closer to a world without capitalism.
I agree, the workers can't accomplish anything without being united against the bosses. Latin America seems very promising for revolutionary action, though it would be nice to see it in Europe soon too.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21, 2007 02:56 pm
When the bulk of the workers get tried of breaking their back for measly wages to the point they walk off their jobs and refuse to work for the bourgeoisie (like when a mule refuses to do any more work)?
Quite soon, I think. Just three or four centuries more, perhaps.

Luís Henrique

[Coggeh]

"Material conditions will determine class conciousness" when capitalism has a boom .. workers happy ... when the recession comes workers not happy lol. Simple but true .Its important to have a workers org in place so the workers will sway come the recession towards a change .

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Coggy's right. Capitalist economies are inherently unstable, and so while most economies of the first world are riding high now, it is only a matter of time before a major collapse occurs and is followed by a recession/depression. Certainly, a major economic decline is expected in Ireland in the next few years; due to the economic anarchy of capitalism and our government getting in bed with the property developers, we have a dangerously large amount of resources (both human and financial) invested in the construction industry. While this industry has thus far been thriving, this trend cannot continue indefinitely and when the construction industry finally does collapse, so will the Irish economy, putting thousands if not millions out of work.

[Psy]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21, 2007 11:03 pm
"Material conditions will determine class conciousness" when capitalism has a boom .. workers happy ... when the recession comes workers not happy lol. Simple but true .Its important to have a workers org in place so the workers will sway come the recession towards a change .
But the long boom (50's and 60's) seems to have been the plateau of capitalism, the rate of profit is lower while workers are exploited more. Workers have seen their living standards slide due to their wages not keeping up with inflation, not to mention workers be forced into lower paying jobs.

[Rawthentic]

Luis, are you joking me?

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21, 2007 11:03 pm
"Material conditions will determine class conciousness" when capitalism has a boom .. workers happy ... when the recession comes workers not happy lol. Simple but true .
The opposite seems true. During recessions, the bourgeoisie launches it most terrible offencives against the working class.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by Voz de la Gente [email protected] 22, 2007 01:22 am
Luis, are you joking me?
Well, nobody knows when it's going to happen. If it were going to take some centuries, would we quit the struggle?

Luís Henrique

[which doctor]

Workers are already fed up.

I wouldn't be too surprised at all if such a "revolution" did occur sometime soon. I remember there's a quote of someone who said that a revolution would be far, far off. This was said just prior to the Paris Commune. I can't find the quote, but you get the point. I think something will happen in either Europe or Latin America before it comes to America. Could perhaps be sparked by some sort of disaster (ecological or not).

[Coggeh]

Originally posted by Luís Henrique+July 22, 2007 04:59 am--> (Luís Henrique @ July 22, 2007 04:59 am)
[email protected] 21, 2007 11:03 pm
"Material conditions will determine class conciousness" when capitalism has a boom .. workers happy ... when the recession comes workers not happy lol. Simple but true .
The opposite seems true. During recessions, the bourgeoisie launches it most terrible offencives against the working class.

Luís Henrique [/b]
The bourgeoisie goes on the defensive and starts attacking rights left right and centre , which is why their must be a socialist alternative in place so the workers will have the option for change .

Since trade unions are so bureaucratic these days and don't stand for workers rights anymore , the workers who would usually turn towards unionship will now seek a more radical stance.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by Coggy+July 22, 2007 12:04 pm--> (Coggy @ July 22, 2007 12:04 pm)
Luís [email protected] 22, 2007 04:59 am
The opposite seems true. During recessions, the bourgeoisie launches it most terrible offencives against the working class.

Luís Henrique
The bourgeoisie goes on the defensive and starts attacking rights left right and centre , which is why their must be a socialist alternative in place so the workers will have the option for change . [/b]
So, let's see. Which were the greatest depressions we had of lately?

One at the end of the twenties, the other at the mid of the seventies of the last century.

The first was followed by the most impressive bourgeois offencive, under the banner of fascism, resulting in the total destruction of the most important workers party of the world, the KPD.

The second was followed by an all-line bourgeois offencive, which, if less impressive, was certainly more consistent, under the banner of neoliberalism, resulting in the destruction of most "real socialism" states, the complete demoralisation of socialdemocracy, and the loss of a huge amount of rights by the workers.

That seems to be the historical experience. Recession entails counter-revolution.


Since trade unions are so bureaucratic these days and don't stand for workers rights anymore , the workers who would usually turn towards unionship will now seek a more radical stance.

This is something I never saw. I have never met a rank-and-file worker who genuinely wished to get involved in something more radical than a union without being involved in the union first place.

Perhaps it happens in "more advanced countries", those where the greater radicalism of the proletariat is expressed by its disorganisation?

Luís Henrique

[Ol' Dirty]

I don't think anyone knows, Psy. Living in the present is the best thing to do for now.

[Psy]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 09:01 pm
I don't think anyone knows, Psy. Living in the present is the best thing to do for now.
The present sucks and has no future. We are past the plateau and capitalism can only offer less from now on, you can't work your way up the class ladder anymore as the long boom is long over, the crisis of over production will keep driving the rate of profits down that means capitalists will keep trying to extract more surplus labor from workers.

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by Luís Henrique+July 22, 2007 05:01 am--> (Luís Henrique @ July 22, 2007 05:01 am)
Voz de la Gente [email protected] 22, 2007 01:22 am
Luis, are you joking me?
Well, nobody knows when it's going to happen. If it were going to take some centuries, would we quit the struggle?

Luís Henrique [/b]
i once heard that Lenin was sitting in a coffee shop with Trotsky, in a rather pessimistic mood about the whole thing when it kicked off.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by Ulster Socialist+July 22, 2007 11:30 pm--> (Ulster Socialist @ July 22, 2007 11:30 pm)
Originally posted by Luís [email protected] 22, 2007 05:01 am

Voz de la Gente [email protected] 22, 2007 01:22 am
Luis, are you joking me?
Well, nobody knows when it's going to happen. If it were going to take some centuries, would we quit the struggle?

Luís Henrique
i once heard that Lenin was sitting in a coffee shop with Trotsky, in a rather pessimistic mood about the whole thing when it kicked off. [/b]
That's the great thing about being pessimistic - you only get agreeable surprises. :D

Luís Henrique

[Coggeh]

Originally posted by Luís Henrique+July 22, 2007 05:10 pm--> (Luís Henrique @ July 22, 2007 05:10 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 12:04 pm

Luís [email protected] 22, 2007 04:59 am
The opposite seems true. During recessions, the bourgeoisie launches it most terrible offencives against the working class.

Luís Henrique
The bourgeoisie goes on the defensive and starts attacking rights left right and centre , which is why their must be a socialist alternative in place so the workers will have the option for change .
So, let's see. Which were the greatest depressions we had of lately?

One at the end of the twenties, the other at the mid of the seventies of the last century.

The first was followed by the most impressive bourgeois offencive, under the banner of fascism, resulting in the total destruction of the most important workers party of the world, the KPD.

The second was followed by an all-line bourgeois offencive, which, if less impressive, was certainly more consistent, under the banner of neoliberalism, resulting in the destruction of most "real socialism" states, the complete demoralisation of socialdemocracy, and the loss of a huge amount of rights by the workers.

That seems to be the historical experience. Recession entails counter-revolution.


Since trade unions are so bureaucratic these days and don't stand for workers rights anymore , the workers who would usually turn towards unionship will now seek a more radical stance.

This is something I never saw. I have never met a rank-and-file worker who genuinely wished to get involved in something more radical than a union without being involved in the union first place.

Perhaps it happens in "more advanced countries", those where the greater radicalism of the proletariat is expressed by its disorganisation?

Luís Henrique [/b]
The members who are already unionised but see that their not standing up for their rights anymore ... will turn to a more radical approach.

In germany the workers were fed up were they not ?

Massive growth for the left was there not ?

Around the same time the bavarian soviet started . Happened all in this period of time of recession ! they could have started a revolution in germany and they stalled and then so the capitalist reaction to communism-Fascism came in and took over

Recession entails worker dis-content if anything , it also entails a bourgeois defensive where they attack rights of workers and so on .... But having a real alternative for workers there will push workers to pursue a leftist and radicalized way of thinking .

[Labor Shall Rule]

Even now, workers currently can't pay their bills, they are desperately bitter and cynical about politics, they have children and other dependents who they can barely support without more than one job, and they face bankruptcy and medical bills.

I would generally agree; with the historical roots of the crisis that is inherent with capitalism, we will face another economic depression, in which the mechanisms of silencing the workers through their capital available which tried varying welfare schemes and the bribing of trade union bureaucrats, will find itself invaluable, and at best, ineffective. When the workers are "fed up" in China, India, Pakistan, Mexico, Nicaragua, Thailand, Vietnam, Bangladesh, El Salvador, Cambodia, Columbia, and other countries where cheap labor-power is found, we will find that our workers will get fed up also. The flow of international capital will come to a grinding halt, the stock market will go haywire, our economy as a whole will be seriously threatened. It's only a matter of time now until workers will get to a point in which they will question the legitimacy of the social stratum that currently dominate the means of production.

[brasil82]

It is true that sometimes things change without our intervention.The capitalism will possibly collapse by it's own,the workers are getting tired,we can enhance this feeling with our action and toughts,in Argentina in 2002 a big TAKE took place,latin america would be probpably the spark,that will fire the flame.....or at least I hope so.... :blush: :blush: :blush:

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 12:10 am
The members who are already unionised but see that their not standing up for their rights anymore ... will turn to a more radical approach.
Ah, yes, sorry, this is a different thing.

But soviets do not start gradually; they erupt when a revolutionary situation comes - and this, as Lenin and Trotsky may have concluded, is not predictable.


In germany the workers were fed up were they not ?

Of war, not of capitalist exploitation as a whole. In fact, not just of war, but of an unwinable war.

Which similar crisis do we have of now?


Massive growth for the left was there not ?

Around the same time the bavarian soviet started . Happened all in this period of time of recession ! they could have started a revolution in germany and they stalled and then so the capitalist reaction to communism-Fascism came in and took over


Erm, no. 1918-1919 was not a time of recession - 1921-1923 was, as well as 1929-1933.


Recession entails worker dis-content if anything , it also entails a bourgeois defensive where they attack rights of workers and so on ....

That it entails discontent among workers is clear. Whether such discontent will be directed against capitalist exploitation, or against some scapegoat, that is the question.

But it certainly entails something much darker: disempowerment and fear among workers, a mentality that a job is an asset and cannot be jeopardised.

And if the bourgeoisie is in the deffencive, how comes it attacks? An attack is an offencive move.


But having a real alternative for workers there will push workers to pursue a leftist and radicalized way of thinking .

Yes, but this is the problem. As of now, we certainly do not have a proletarian alternative.

Luís Henrique

[chaingang3000]

Workers will never get fed up without people to lead them to the conclusion that they should get fed up. Typically people tend to be looking only to survive another day however occasionally someone will stand up and demand something of the government etc... but until then most people are sitting content with their lives no matter how terrible they are.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 08:05 pm
Workers will never get fed up without people to lead them to the conclusion that they should get fed up. Typically people tend to be looking only to survive another day however occasionally someone will stand up and demand something of the government etc...
And that mysterious "someone" won't possibly be a worker?

Luís Henrique

[Psy]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 08:05 pm
Workers will never get fed up without people to lead them to the conclusion that they should get fed up. Typically people tend to be looking only to survive another day however occasionally someone will stand up and demand something of the government etc... but until then most people are sitting content with their lives no matter how terrible they are.
I'm not asking when workers will ask for something, but when they will unleash their built anger on the streets like what happened in Paris in May 1968.