Let Bush and Cheney stay in power

[rebel_lord]

hello all, i'm a socialist, but not a dogmatic one. Well the thing is that i was debating about a possible 9-11 in USA, and i posted an article from Alex Jones site www.prisonplanet.com about a possible staged terror 9-11 in US.

But the sectarian leftists instead of analyzing that article they bashed me coz Alex Jones is in favor of conspiracy theory, militias, illuminati theories, ec.

and they [the sectarian-stalinists] think that all people have to think exactly like they think instead of being more wide open, less sectarian, less closed minded, less reactionary, and more democratic, more open to welcome all people from all ideologies, and all sectors of USA to the large united front that we need in order to seize state-power, political power, and to beat the neocons, the imperialist system that is killing humans, that is destroying this earth with wars of plunder and exploitation against the people of this world.

But with such a sectarian stalinist view we are dead, and divided, instead of strong and united

Let Bush rule if people think that alone they can beat Bush, we need to be united, united and united. or else let Bush and Cheney stay in power

rebel_lord

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 04:50 pm
But the sectarian leftists instead of analyzing that article they bashed me coz Alex Jones is in favor of conspiracy theory, militias, illuminati theories, ec.
Those theories are reactionary. They work against our liberation, by construing our enemies as invencible. They are also false. Capitalism is not run by a conspiracy of right-wingers; on the contrary, the problem is exactly that it is an "automatic" system, that doesn't need to be "run" by anyone.


and they [the sectarian-stalinists] think that all people have to think exactly like they think instead of being more wide open, less sectarian, less closed minded,

But perhaps it's you who are being closed minded, in that you want to believe in demonstrably false theories?


less reactionary, and more democratic, more open to welcome all people from all ideologies,

But the fight against Bush's government cannot welcome people from all ideologies; first because some of those ideologies actually support Bush and his team, and second because there are those who oppose it from the right, and would reemplace him with something even worse.


and all sectors of USA to the large united front that we need in order to seize state-power, political power, and to beat the neocons, the imperialist system that is killing humans, that is destroying this earth with wars of plunder and exploitation against the people of this world.

But you see, some of those ideologies that oppose the neocons do it because they want to reform the imperialist system into something more profitable. So, really, we cannot identify the imperialist system with the neoconservative ideology: there are plenty of other political lines that support imperialism, from right-wing populism to "liberalism" and social-democracy.


But with such a sectarian stalinist view we are dead, and divided, instead of strong and united

Being united with your enemies doesn't make you stronger, but weaker.

And not all of those who oppose a front with the far right against Bush are Stalinists.


Let Bush rule if people think that alone they can beat Bush, we need to be united, united and united. or else let Bush and Cheney stay in power

That's not the problem. The problem is what Bush represents - the interests of the American bourgeoisie, as seen from the specifical perspective of one of its sectors.

To oust Bush and Cheney to have Clinton, Barak, or Kerry instead is not in our interest.

Luís Henrique

[rebel_lord]

Originally posted by Luís [email protected] 19, 2007 07:55 pm
Those theories are reactionary. They work against our liberation, by construing our enemies as invencible. They are also false. Capitalism is not run by a conspiracy of right-wingers; on the contrary, the problem is exactly that it is an "automatic" system, that doesn't need to be "run" by anyone.



But perhaps it's you who are being closed minded, in that you want to believe in demonstrably false theories?


But the fight against Bush&#39;s government cannot welcome people from all ideologies; first because some of those ideologies actually support Bush and his team <--WRONG &#33;&#33;


You have a sectarian-closed minded anti-democratic world view. Sectarian, revisionist, dictatorial reactionary world view will not help leftist parties at all

You are wrong on a couple of points:

On claiming that i am a fan of Illuminati Conspiracy Theories


On saying that we cannot welcome right-wingers to the left-wing united movement (There u are lost), that is a total contradiction. With that view leftist parties and large united leftist workers front will not grow at all


And on claiming that any right winger in a leftist party will destroy the leftist party from within (Paranoia)


rebel_lord

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2007 12:00 am
You have a sectarian-closed minded anti-democratic world view. Sectarian, revisionist, dictatorial reactionary world view will not help leftist parties at all
Now pay attention: I am trying to have a rational conversation with you. If you are going to resort to name calling, then a rational conversation is impossible.


You are wrong on a couple of points:

On claiming that i am a fan of Illuminati Conspiracy Theories

I never said, much less claimed that. You brought a conspiracy theorist into discussion; people reacted to that, because those theories are repulsive to them. You seemed surprised by the reaction, and I tried to explain you why people are repulsed by such theories.


On saying that we cannot welcome right-wingers to the left-wing united movement (There u are lost), that is a total contradiction. With that view leftist parties and large united leftist workers front will not grow at all

You are confusing two different things. Of course we need to make people who are right-wingers change their positions. What we do not need, or even can do, is to pretend that they have already changed their position, when they have not.


And on claiming that any right winger in a leftist party will destroy the leftist party from within (Paranoia)

I did not say that. I said that we cannot make a common front with the far right against Bush.

Now, please. If you are going to reply to this, do it in a civilised way. Don&#39;t come telling me that I am sectarian or anti-democratic, revisionist or dictatorial. I will take exception with that, and conclude that you are not here to have a productive conversation, but rather to troll.

Luís Henrique

[peaccenicked]

The question for a revolutionary does not go to the description of left or right, or even conspiracy theory. Conspiracies are common place both left and right. The only fearless approach is to find out the truth as far as possible.
For revolutionaries who take their cue from Marx who first attempted to make revolution itself as scientific as possible but learned from Blanqui that it was largely an art. In that warfare, including class warfare is an art form.
We learn that there is a ruling minority who exploit the majority, even unemployment helps to keep the wages down.

When socialists come across an idea like the illuminati, it is not so strange.

Is it strange that there maybe a couple of very rich control freaks out there who control the most important financial institutions in the world.

I do not find that idea strange. What I find strange is that they are supposed to be devil worshippers. Now, that might not be that strange considering how horrible the influence very rich capitalists rather imperialists have on the world. I suspect that devil worship might be there as a means of bonding between evil men, but it would soon melt as a bond if billions went down the drain and one had an irreversible decline which might again,be impossible singularly.


Conspiracy theories maybe shared by rightists and leftists but if that is our only common ground it would be counter productive to merge. What we might do is look
at each others work and see if there is anything we can learn about the nature of our society which in socialist terms is the conscious interest of the exploited against the conscious interests of the exploiters, which is mostly out in the open, but the rich have had their secret societies and cabals as long as political power has been taken from the people as they were organised in primitive communist times.

Also the exploiters have long sought to keep secret the conditions of exploitation from the working classes. Long sought to hide their plans for war.

If you listen to Fidel Castro and I do, you would believe that humanities survival is at stake.
http://www.counterpunch.org/castro04072007.html

Our attitude should be to let none of our enemies stay in power. Bush and Cheney are war criminals who should be in jail, along with the democrats who supported this war based on downright lies (viewable from a mile away.). There is a vacuum
we can only do our best to fill it with a revolutionary people, armed with the means of questioning authority and the common sense to work collectively for the good of all.

[rebel_lord]

Originally posted by Luís Henrique+July 21, 2007 01:23 am--> (Luís Henrique @ July 21, 2007 01:23 am)
[email protected] 20, 2007 12:00 am
You have a sectarian-closed minded anti-democratic world view. Sectarian, revisionist, dictatorial reactionary world view will not help leftist parties at all
Now pay attention: I am trying to have a rational conversation with you. If you are going to resort to name calling, then a rational conversation is impossible.


You are wrong on a couple of points:

On claiming that i am a fan of Illuminati Conspiracy Theories

I never said, much less claimed that. You brought a conspiracy theorist into discussion; people reacted to that, because those theories are repulsive to them. You seemed surprised by the reaction, and I tried to explain you why people are repulsed by such theories.


On saying that we cannot welcome right-wingers to the left-wing united movement (There u are lost), that is a total contradiction.* With that view leftist parties and large united leftist workers front will not grow at all

You are confusing two different things. Of course we need to make people who are right-wingers change their positions. What we do not need, or even can do, is to pretend that they have already changed their position, when they have not.


And on claiming that any right winger in a leftist party will destroy the leftist party from within (Paranoia)

I did not say that. I said that we cannot make a common front with the far right against Bush.

Now, please. If you are going to reply to this, do it in a civilised way. Don&#39;t come telling me that I am sectarian or anti-democratic, revisionist or dictatorial. I will take exception with that, and conclude that you are not here to have a productive conversation, but rather to troll.

Luís Henrique [/b]


Hello Sectarian: how are you? i am a real socialist, and you are an egocentric, greedy, selfish, anti-democratic, dictatorial, stalinist sectarian. Sectarians, greedy leftists are worse than right wingers. Start a sectarian party to see if you can grown and overthrow capitalism, i wish you well

rebel_lord

[rebel_lord]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21, 2007 02:17 am
The question for a revolutionary does not go to the description of left or right, or even conspiracy theory. Conspiracies are common place both left and right. The only fearless approach is to find out the truth as far as possible.
For revolutionaries who take their cue from Marx who first attempted to make revolution itself as scientific as possible but learned from Blanqui that it was largely an art. In that warfare, including class warfare is an art form.
We learn that there is a ruling minority who exploit the majority, even unemployment helps to keep the wages down.

When socialists come across an idea like the illuminati, it is not so strange.

Is it strange that there maybe a couple of very rich control freaks out there who control the most important financial institutions in the world.

I do not find that idea strange. What I find strange is that they are supposed to be devil worshippers. Now, that might not be that strange considering how horrible the influence very rich capitalists rather imperialists have on the world. I suspect that devil worship might be there as a means of bonding between evil men, but it would soon melt as a bond if billions went down the drain and one had an irreversible decline which might again,be impossible singularly.


Conspiracy theories maybe shared by rightists and leftists but if that is our only common ground it would be counter productive to merge. What we might do is look
at each others work and see if there is anything we can learn about the nature of our society which in socialist terms is the conscious interest of the exploited against the conscious interests of the exploiters, which is mostly out in the open, but the rich have had their secret societies and cabals as long as political power has been taken from the people as they were organised in primitive communist times.

Also the exploiters have long sought to keep secret the conditions of exploitation from the working classes. Long sought to hide their plans for war.

If you listen to Fidel Castro and I do, you would believe that humanities survival is at stake.
http://www.counterpunch.org/castro04072007.html

Our attitude should be to let none of our enemies stay in power. Bush and Cheney are war criminals who should be in jail, along with the democrats who supported this war based on downright lies (viewable from a mile away.). There is a vacuum
we can only do our best to fill it with a revolutionary people, armed with the means of questioning authority and the common sense to work collectively for the good of all.


Hey watch out this forum is full of Pinochets, Hitlers and Kim Jong, they might shoot you if you say something that they don&#39;t like, they are real, real anti-democratic, hahaha, i laugh at them. They are just like Bush

rebel_lord

[BlackSun]

The question for a revolutionary does not go to the description of left or right, or even conspiracy theory. Conspiracies are common place both left and right. The only fearless approach is to find out the truth as far as possible.
For revolutionaries who take their cue from Marx who first attempted to make revolution itself as scientific as possible but learned from Blanqui that it was largely an art. In that warfare, including class warfare is an art form.
We learn that there is a ruling minority who exploit the majority, even unemployment helps to keep the wages down.

When socialists come across an idea like the illuminati, it is not so strange.

Is it strange that there maybe a couple of very rich control freaks out there who control the most important financial institutions in the world.

I do not find that idea strange. What I find strange is that they are supposed to be devil worshippers. Now, that might not be that strange considering how horrible the influence very rich capitalists rather imperialists have on the world. I suspect that devil worship might be there as a means of bonding between evil men, but it would soon melt as a bond if billions went down the drain and one had an irreversible decline which might again,be impossible singularly.


Conspiracy theories maybe shared by rightists and leftists but if that is our only common ground it would be counter productive to merge. What we might do is look
at each others work and see if there is anything we can learn about the nature of our society which in socialist terms is the conscious interest of the exploited against the conscious interests of the exploiters, which is mostly out in the open, but the rich have had their secret societies and cabals as long as political power has been taken from the people as they were organised in primitive communist times.

Also the exploiters have long sought to keep secret the conditions of exploitation from the working classes. Long sought to hide their plans for war.

If you listen to Fidel Castro and I do, you would believe that humanities survival is at stake.
http://www.counterpunch.org/castro04072007.html

Our attitude should be to let none of our enemies stay in power. Bush and Cheney are war criminals who should be in jail, along with the democrats who supported this war based on downright lies (viewable from a mile away.). There is a vacuum
we can only do our best to fill it with a revolutionary people, armed with the means of questioning authority and the common sense to work collectively for the good of all.


Man oh man Peaccenicked, did you hit the nail on the head&#33;&#33;&#33;

I totally agree that it would be a big mistake, a tremendous mistake, if anyone would view national/global struggle against oppression in a state of tunnel-vision. It makes no difference if the person is a leftist, a (so-called) conspiracy-theorist, a Black-Nationalist or whatever else.

For decades I adhered to leftist paradigms but I also regularly listen to shows like Alex Jones, Jonathan Conoley (too bad he’s no longer broadcasting), the Power Hour and so forth. Also, I adhere to spiritual principles (not religious dogma) as well. The point is, while clearly recognizing where each group is coming from within the struggle (using analytical thinking), thoroughly realize that we all have vital pieces to the puzzles.

I don’t know who said it but there’s an old proverb floating around that states, ”a wise man listens to everyone”. Note carefully, It doesn’t says, ”he follows everyone”, it just says he listens.

[MYSTIC OWL]

The LEFT in the United Kingdom has seen revived by a fresh injection of blood from Muslim activists . . . see the anti-war movement and the Respect coalition lead by George Galloway.

Many thought that Margaret Thatcher had delivered a body blow to the left when she reformed trade union laws and nailed the National Union of Mineworkers. However, the neo-imperialist policies have provided the left in the UK with a rallying point that is sure to attract people from beyond the &#39;usual suspects&#39; <_<

Not everybody on the left welcomes Muslims into their ranks. Read Nick Cohens book &#39;Whats Left? How Liberals Lost Their Way&#39;.

AND what about Christopher Hitchens?&#33; :wacko: :lol:

I DON&#39;T THINK THAT&#39;S PULONIUM IN YOU&#39;RE TEA, COMRADE HITCHENS &#33;&#33; :blink: :wacko:

Truth be told, I think the LEFT are very confused about how to approach the extraordinary rise of POLITICAL ISLAM.

FRIEND ? :)

FOE? :angry:

CONVENIENT SLEEPING PARTNER ? :blush:

[Luís Henrique]

Christopher Hitchens is a leftist?&#33;

Luís Henrique

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21, 2007 09:04 am
I don’t know who said it but there’s an old proverb floating around that states, ”a wise man listens to everyone”. Note carefully, It doesn’t says, ”he follows everyone”, it just says he listens.
Really? &#39;Cause some people seem a lot more willing to listen to right-wing conspiracy theories than to the refutation of those conspiracy theories, or explanations of what&#39;s politically wrong with that worldview.

If the shoe fits, wear it.

[MYSTIC OWL]

Hard to believe Luis Henrique . . .

Chris Hitchens was the darling of the left and then on September 11th 2001 - he found a new enemy (ISLAM) and new friends (NEOCONS) and he&#39;s never looked back . . .

. . . just as well, he has left behind him a thick trail of slime &#33;&#33;

[BlackSun]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 10:13 pm
Really? &#39;Cause some people seem a lot more willing to listen to right-wing conspiracy theories than to the refutation of those conspiracy theories, or explanations of what&#39;s politically wrong with that worldview.

If the shoe fits, wear it.
With your closing remark I&#39;ll say that you do the same. Because it seems like what you&#39;ve laid-out strongly reflects on you more than me in regards to actually listening (or reading) and seriously using analytical thinking.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by MYSTIC [email protected] 24, 2007 11:35 pm
Hard to believe Luis Henrique . . .

Chris Hitchens was the darling of the left and then on September 11th 2001 - he found a new enemy (ISLAM) and new friends (NEOCONS) and he&#39;s never looked back . . .

. . . just as well, he has left behind him a thick trail of slime &#33;&#33;
Which means, obviously, that Christopher Hitchens is not a leftist.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21, 2007 03:04 pm
I don’t know who said it but there’s an old proverb floating around that states, ”a wise man listens to everyone”. Note carefully, It doesn’t says, ”he follows everyone”, it just says he listens.
Yeah. A wise person listens to everyone. So does a fool.

The difference is, a fool believes in everyone; a wise person strives to critically understand everyone.

I have listened to the conspiracy theories, and I find them unconvincing and harmful. They are only useful to those who want an excuse to do nothing: they construe our enemies as invincible monsters that cannot be fought against. So if we don&#39;t want to destroy ourselves in an impossible struggle, better to sit back and pass around messages in the internet.

(In fact, to be consequent, even passing messages in the internet is either foolish or dangerous. The conspiracy will either destroy or demoralise us, or will use our messages to their own ends. After all, the fact that our messages are going around without being suppressed by the conspiracy either proves that there is no conspiracy at all, or that it, wittingly or unwittingly, makes part of the conspiracy itself.)

Luís Henrique

[fabiansocialist]

Originally posted by Luís [email protected] 24, 2007 03:03 pm
Christopher Hitchens is a leftist?&#33;

Luís Henrique
"Left" has become denuded of any real meaning thanks to media propaganda. The Democrat party in the US is said to be of "the Left." Hitchens is a media whore who, once upon a time, found it expedient to express vague liberal sentiments. After 9/11, he found it more expedient to take the side of the US ruling class. This is a man who has no serious ideas or understanding of the world around him and whose popularity rests on his lightweight "analyses" and comments.

Why are we even discussing such a capitalist running dog? Next, people will be claiming Blair was a leftist.

[BlackSun]

Luís Henrique,July 25, 2007 12:11 pm]Yeah. A wise person listens to everyone. So does a fool.

The difference is, a fool believes in everyone; a wise person strives to critically understand everyone.
Let&#39;s see, could this pertain to where I already said, "note carefully, it doesn’t says, "”he follows everyone”", it just says he listens", you think? Moving on.


I have listened to the conspiracy theories, and I find them unconvincing and harmful. They are only useful to those who want an excuse to do nothing: they construe our enemies as invincible monsters that cannot be fought against. So if we don&#39;t want to destroy ourselves in an impossible struggle, better to sit back and pass around messages in the internet.

I don&#39;t know what [so-called] conspiracy theorists you&#39;ve come in contact with but from my experience they definitely don&#39;t sit around and talk sh*t. I concur that they may be misguided in some aspects but docile, oh no&#33;&#33;&#33;

In fact it is from that sector that alot of legitimate struggles against the oppressors are being waged that is hardly ever touched by leftists, if ever at all. The growing stance against the illegal federal income tax and the I.R.S. and Federal Reserve is lead by the [so-called] conspiracy theorists, not the left.

Law issues such as not needing a driver&#39;s license except when driving a commercial vehicle and so forth is never covered by the left. Moreover, when I bring this and the I.R.S. issue up to people on the left, they don&#39;t even want have an honest discussion about it.

Plus, let&#39;s not forget that from the outset, it was the [so-called] conspiracy theorists who lead the charge through rallies and demonstrations that 9/11 was as inside job, at least here in New York anyway. Where the hell was the left? I remember talking to leftists in the summer 2002 and they were still riding on the b***s*** government/corporate-media spin of how it was done by Arabs who are so pissed at us (people in the U.S.). However, they were coming from a different angle that it was because of U.S. corporate interests that pissed those people off to do what they did. I was like, "you gotta be kidding". Let&#39;s face it, even if coming from that position, it&#39;s still a totally way off base assessment of what actually happened.


(In fact, to be consequent, even passing messages in the internet is either foolish or dangerous. The conspiracy will either destroy or demoralise us, or will use our messages to their own ends. After all, the fact that our messages are going around without being suppressed by the conspiracy either proves that there is no conspiracy at all, or that it, wittingly or unwittingly, makes part of the conspiracy itself.)

Luís Henrique
If that&#39;s the case then what the hell are we doing here posting? LOL

[MYSTIC OWL]

I agree with fabiansocialist about the meaningless &#39;LEFT&#39; & &#39;RIGHT&#39; designations in US/British politics. However, some distinctions do remain in many Continental European countries.

On key issues such the role of the private sector in healthcare, employment rights, privatisation of public utilities - (gas/water/transport/electricity), redistribution of wealth and taxation, you will find that there is no difference between those that are regarded as LEFT or Right in the political spectrum.

The only use for these labels is as terms of abuse between one side and another.

[peaccenicked]

Is there such a thing as a left-wing conspiracy theory? I have heard a could Stalin poisoned Lenin. Hitler burned down the Reichstag. Calling a conspiracy left or right wing is just plain non sense. Either people got together and did a crime or they did not. There is no left or right about it.

How many anti conspiracy theories are just theories dressed up as scientific knowledge, so as to not rock the boat and suggest that the government is capable of nasty things.


A revolutionary that closes their mind to nothing but the establishment point of view
and dismisses the demands of relatives of the victims demands for a new inquiry is nothing but inhuman and counter revolutionary in spirit. Michael Moore(the liberal) has least changed his tune towards a new investigation.
If Chomsky finally realises that peer reviews (and a diversion from activism)are industry biased, scruples twisting
profit orientated, back slapping, paper pushing, hotel menus, then he might gain his
credibilty and integrity back as a human being.

[fabiansocialist]

Originally posted by MYSTIC [email protected] 25, 2007 07:26 pm
I agree with fabiansocialist about the meaningless &#39;LEFT&#39; & &#39;RIGHT&#39; designations in US/British politics. However, some distinctions do remain in many Continental European countries.

On key issues such the role of the private sector in healthcare, employment rights, privatisation of public utilities - (gas/water/transport/electricity), redistribution of wealth and taxation, you will find that there is no difference between those that are regarded as LEFT or Right in the political spectrum.

The only use for these labels is as terms of abuse between one side and another.
In the United States, the ruling class has brilliantly redefined "Left": being "Left" has become a fashion statement: something like a lifestyle choice adopted by trendy metrosexuals. It has come to refer to relatively trivial matters like abortion and whether evolution should be taught in schools. The questions of who owns what, who calls the shots, who gets shafted, and why the US is engaged in "peace" abroad are never raised, let alone debated. And this is why on television programs like CNN&#39;s "Crossfire," when one has people from the right and from the "left," both parties are yelling at each other about things that don&#39;t matter at all, and this pases for political debate in the land of the free and the home of the brave.