Originally posted by Dick Dastardly+July 18, 2007 09:13 pm--> (Dick Dastardly @ July 18, 2007 09:13 pm)
[email protected] 18, 2007 08:38 pm
Why is this in "anti-fascism" instead of "philosophy"? :huh: "Libertarians" are the opposite of fascism, in as fascists are authoritarian. Fascists are our mortal enemies. We may kill a fascist. However anarcho-capitalists/classical liberals are only intellectual enemies, no different than any other opposing ideology. In fact Libertarians have a "non-aggression principle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-aggression_principle)". The Libertarian party even has members swear an oath not to initiate force to effect social change. So I do not consider them to be a personal threat to me. They certainly are perferable to the neo-con Right.
You actually believe their propaganda? Let me remind you of the anarcho-capitalist Hans-Hermann Hoppe, who wrote:
There can be no tolerance toward democrats and communists in a libertariann social order. They will have to be physically separated and expelled from society. Likewise, in a covenant founded for the purpose of protecting family and kin, there can be no tolerance toward those habitually promoting lifestyles incompatible with this goal. They - the advocates of alternative, non-family and kin-centered lifestyles such as, for instance, individual hedonism, parasitism, nature-environment worship, homosexuality, or communism - will have to be physically removed from society, too, if one is to maintain a libertarian order.
Libertarianism claims to be opposed to both "democracy" and "dictatorship", instead arguing for a "constitutional republic" that should not interfere with corporations at all. This would, in fact, lead to a highly reactionary dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, much moreso than in our current bourgeois democracy. Are Libertarians fascists? I don't know, but the society that they envision is much more dangerous than that of liberal democracy.
The FOK, an anti-fascist research group in the Netherlands, has written extensively on the Libertarian movement in the Netherlands. They also paid attention to the Libertarian participation in the anti-Islam witch hunt of the extreme right, and their ties with fascist groups and Apartheid South Africa. If you are interested, I can translate some of their findings.
As for "strategies" on debating Libertarians on the internet, I would suggest simply avoiding it. Libertarians tend to organize in troll squads in order to outnumber, overwhelm and humiliate you, so it's a pretty pointless endeavour. It's better to reject their values altogether, and argue "past" them. Learn about why their slogans of "freedom" are just that, empty slogans, why their ideas are wrong on every level, and educate those who might fall for them. To do that, start here:
http://web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.Treanor/libertarian.html [/b]
Yes, I know about their squading tactics, but I believe that it is possible to out-squad them. The problem is of course that most libertarians by some odd reason appears to be nailed to their computer screens.
As for libertarians contra fascists, they both have the same effects on the working class.
While fascists are luring white-collar workers (lumpen-proles, seasonal workers, unemployed) into their analysis, libertarians are luring blue-collar workers (engineers, technicians, programmers) that their analysis best serves the class interests of that group.
Besides, libertarianism is - in values - close to fascism. To believe in libertarianism, you must believe that you are on a higher ladder than other people, and that those who are affected by accidents, sickness or abuse from their bosses are inferior because they don't manage to cope with the free market system.
Of course, libertarians are even more utopian than the most utopian left-wingers, and the social and technological conditions of their ideal time (the 19th century, when most people where still self-reliant farmers) is not a part of their analysis. But they are a disruptive force on "teh internets".
Therefore, a particular strategy against libertarianism is needed. If we make the mistake to ignore them, they will cause much more harm to the memetic development of ideas on the web.