What am I?

[Cassius Clay]

So folks time for a confession. Like most of us here (dare I say) I am not a worker and am not from what you might call a working class background. Infact I would say that I enjoy alot of the 'Luxury' of a western Capitalist society. Usually a prolertariat is defined as somebody whose only form of income or rather only way to survive is to sell their labor. This ain't me.

At the same time however I exploit nobody and do not to my knowledge actively aid the people who are exploiting people, in most cases ruthlessly. I'm quite proud to say I no longer drink Bacardi after seeing their links with the Cuban exile community in Miami and doubtless I appear a bit of a brat to most people when I point that out or eat at McDonalds. So I'm not a bourgesie, but neither do these small sacrafices make me a ideal Communist in any sense.

So folks ignoring the names and the politics for a second what in the traditional Marxist sense am I defined as?

[redstar2000]

Insufficient information, Cassius.

Are you a student? Do your parents/relatives support you? If so, what do they do for a living?

What will you do when you are no longer a student? Will you sell your labor-power? To who? In order to do what? Will you "own" a part of the means of production? Will you live from the proceeds of dividends and/or interest?

And then you have to factor in: what will you do with your life politically? Some people who are technically in the middle class get so caught up in the class struggle on the side of the working class that you might just as well call them "honorary workers".

So, it all depends.

:cool:

[mentalbunny]

Following my own terminology I would say you belong to the Enlightened Classes, which is basically Middle Class but educated and aware of the rest of the world, etc. This is no bad thing as usually members of ther Enlightened Classes have more power than those in the Working Classes (see also my post here (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=22&topic=2179&start=20), i'm still developing my ideas though, so there may be errors in what I say at the moment).

[Cassius Clay]

''Insufficient information, Cassius.''

Fair enough maybe if the discussion becomes good and more people get involved I will tell more but I'm not really keen on giving away 'All' my information on the internet.


''Are you a student? Do your parents/relatives support you? If so, what do they do for a living?''

Yes I am a student. My parents support me, with a little bit of help from working tax credit and/or child tax credit. My old man is semi-retired I think (almost 60), having not worked since something or other happened at the big company he worked at. I don't really want to tell more, suffice to say he is rich enough to be retiring to Austrailia. My 'Mother' works in part time in House of Fraser. BTW incase you haven't guessed there divorced.

Not sure if that helped, I have probably given a wrong impression which could be interpreted either way.


''(What will you do when you are no longer a student? Will you sell your labor-power? To who? In order to do what? Will you "own" a part of the means of production? Will you live from the proceeds of dividends and/or interest?''

I honestly don't know. Plan is pass exams get into a University where I will doubltess 'have' to work in a Supermarket or McDonalds to get by. If you had asked me 30 or even 20 years ago yes I probably would be selling my 'Labor-power', but after Thatcher what can be defined as a traditional 'Working class' job here? Especially in the rather prosperous South of England. In regard to owning a part of the means of production, I very much doubt it. Infact the selfish person in me would say I wish.


''And then you have to factor in: what will you do with your life politically? Some people who are technically in the middle class get so caught up in the class struggle on the side of the working class that you might just as well call them "honorary workers".

Well I would hope that would be me. But I get the feeling most students like myself are/would be viewed with sceptisisum (spell?) if not hostility by workers. As in 'Who the Fuck are you to tell me what I should do?' when we haven't really experienced real poverty, oppression or what have you.
''So, it all depends.''

That it does.

mentalbunny, 'Enlightened Classes' please explain a bit more. Heard of the 'Underclass' but not this term.

[praxis1966]

If you're really sincere about helping to bring about an end to global capitalism, then eventually you will have to renounce all of your excess material to join the proletariat. This is not just for credibility. Anyone who calls themselves a revolutionary and drapes themselves in the spoils of explotation is full of shit.

But it sounds like you really mean it when you say you want to be an "honorary worker." My advice is bust your ass while in school so that some day you might turn all of that wonderful knowledge against bourgesie hegemony.

[Silent Eye]

Cassius, remember, Lenin himself was from a middle class background. AS was Dzerzhinsky and many other participants in the Russian Revolution.

[mentalbunny]

Enlightened Class is basically Middle Class but not just ass in money, as in education. It's more to do with being well-read, well-educated and aware of the world around you, and quite active in it, giving things back to the society that has given you a nice house and a nice job that pays you well enough to support your family. Middle Class just means anyone in a particluar kind of job, so economically they are in the same place on the scale but their attitudes are very different. That explains the large numbers of seemingly bourgeoisie who are leftist. Sadly there appear to be less proletariat leftists simply because their education is so lacking that they are forced into poor jobs and also have no choice but to believe propaganda against the left. I would say I was a member of the Enlightened Class, which is how I meet so many leftists, read leftist papers, etc. Otherwise I would be very different. However I think it does take a certain level of humanity and intelligence to be a leftist, which explains why there aren't more Middle Class leftists.

I hope that makes some kind of sense.

[Ian]

Sounds as if your father would have still had to sell his labour still so I would say he is from the labour aristocracy (a term Lenin coined to describe richer proletarians eg. public servants, scientists)

[redstar2000]

Right now, Cassius, it sounds as if you're sort of in that hazy zone where the upper stratum of the working class merges into the lower stratum of the middle class.

(using words like "stratum" makes it sound almost "scientific", doesn't it? :cheesy:)

If you end up going to university and working at McDonald's, you will be following a well-trod path of working class "upward mobility"...especially if you find that your degree won't get you the high-paying job that you might be anticipating.

Mentalbunny's "enlightened class" is not a class in the Marxist sense, of course. But there does seem to have always been a small section of the working class that wants more out of life than the telly and the pub...and I am one of those. I have met a few others.

Perhaps you will likewise be one of us. I like to think, of course, that we are "the wave of the future"...that more working people will be like us as time passes. But I have to admit that the phrase "as time passes" is rather elastic and could cover a century or more of actual events.

I shouldn't worry too much about your "class identity" if I were you. People don't generally make a fuss about it unless you do something really horrible or stupid or both. Human beings, even many of the most "brainwashed", often "sense" when you are on their side.

Once, I was making a purchase at a large chain pharmacy when I overheard a conversation among a couple of the staff behind the counter. They were discussing an underground newspaper that I was actually involved with.

One said, "Don't you know that's a communist newspaper?" And the other one replied, "Yes, I know, but I like it anyway."

:cool:

[Sensitive]

I grew up in a middle class home and am in university now too (history major).

Most of the lefties I've known were from the middle class as well.

And don't forget old Fredrick Engles, the bourgeois factory owner, whom funded Marx. A ruling-class commie.

[thursday night]

"Cassius, remember, Lenin himself was from a middle class background. AS was Dzerzhinsky and many other participants in the Russian Revolution."

Do not forget Fidel and Che. :)

[synthesis]

I knew Che was bourgeois, but I'd always thought that Fidel was a peasant. Guess I was wrong.

[MiNdGaMe]

I was originally from a poor working class family, now we are middle class. My dad runs his own small company, with himself the only employee. My mother is a manager of a supermarket department. I try to support myself with my partime job.

The important prinicple to remember here is that the only enemy is the Upper Class, the middle may exploit the working, but are exploited evenly by the Upper also.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I think I am of this 'enlightened middle class' that Mentalbunny mentioned.
I am currently in a fix right now as to my level of enlightedness you probably know.
if you don't see my 'Being communist and joining the military' thread

PS: shameless plug I know.

[Dhul Fiqar]

Quote: from DyerMaker on 2:36 pm on April 18, 2003
I knew Che was bourgeois, but I'd always thought that Fidel was a peasant. Guess I was wrong.


The Castro family was actually quite prominent in Cuba before the black sheep Fidel arrived on the scene :biggrin:

--- G.

[mentalbunny]

I don't know if you remember it but a while back we had a thread about feeling guilty for being a leftist and comfortably off.

Essentially I think that you need a certain level of physical comfort to achieve your full mental potential and to be any good for the rest of society. That is what most people on this board have (well we all have access to computers and most of these are our own or our parents). The most important thing is that we don't become content with our lifestyles but we are constantly fighting for the cause and aren't satisfied with anything, there can always be improvements, there are always problems to overcome.

[Saint-Just]

I don't think anyone wants to be be of the lowest class in class society. In the bourgeois class in capitalist society everyone enjoys a relatively good standard of living that is often at the expense of the working class. However, the most important part of a life of a revolutionary in capitalist society is to destroy the capitalist system. It is not important that one lives their life as a member of the proletariat or that they make any small concessions of their wealth and so forth to the proletariat since it is like feeding a caged animal. Nice but ultimately not helpful at all.

All ones energy, wealth and intelligence should be given towards destroying capitalism as so far as they realistically can. In the UK, where many of us live, we have little hope of seeing socialism, and so we are best off living our lives whilst aiding the struggle for socialism but not worrying about our class position.

[MiNdGaMe]

The majority of revolutionaries in history were from upper class backgrounds. Che, Ho Chi, Fidel, Lenin...

[redstar2000]

"The majority of revolutionaries in history were from upper-class backgrounds."

Wrong! The majority of famous names may have come from such backgrounds. The majority of revolutionaries has always come from the oppressed classes.

:cool:

(Edited by redstar2000 at 8:06 pm on April 18, 2003)

[angry]

I look at it this way, if you share the thougts of equality and compassion for your fellow man, you are half way there, it´s not a matter of wich background you have behind you, i mean look at Fidel, he comes from a rich, and i mean rich family, where is he now, let me refrace that, what is he now? I come from a family that is built up in majority of farmers, handcraftsmen and artists, we live a fine life, i mean i have access to the internet, i have a tv, i would not say we are poor, but i share the same ideology as Fidel somewhat taken from Marx and the temper of Ernesto, i remember a quote "If you shiver with anger everytime you see injustice, then, you are a comrade of mine" Ernesto "che" Guevara de la Serna..

ps. that was at least the main concept of the quote, i am not sure if this was the exact translation of it..;)..hope you got my point on this matter..

[kingbee]

all revolutionaries are amateurs. no such thing as "professional" revolutionaries. we are amateurs and combine revolutionary work with everyday life. revoltuionaries are ordinary people who do extraordinary things
"the politics of class war"

if you are born bourgeois, theres no way of changing is there. i used to feel guilty and a hippocrite, and still kinda do- we rant on about changing the world for the under priveliged, but we do nothing. what can we do? often confused about the issue.

[mentalbunny]

The thing about being middle class is that being a leftist isn't just about freeing yourself and those around you, it's freeing the world, it works on a slightly different level. I'm not saying it's better, it's just different because you could easily ignore what's going on around you and live easily.

[Hate Is Art]

You shouldn't feel guilty for being born into the middle-class, It is something you cannot change, I can't remember who said this but it really applies to this situation "It is not ones wealth that makes him a man but more his actions"

[kingbee]

im not guilty bout being middle class- only a hippocrite. its alright for me to say freedom for all, kill the bourgoesie, but im living a middle class life!

[Hate Is Art]

at least you recognise that there is injustice and you feel a need to do something about it. If you just sat at home eating your cavier and drinking your Finest Scotch Whiskey while exploating labour while complaining about capitilist fat cats then you would be a hippocrite.

[mentalbunny]

DN, I agree completely. I don't have anything to add.

[Urban Rubble]

Can someone E-mail me information on this Bacardi supporting the Cuban exiles in Miami ? Bacrdi is my favorite rum man.

[Ian]

I think the reason for so many revolutionary leader is to be found in the pages of Marx and Engels, maybe somebody could be so kind as to provide a quote but I will paraphrase. Marx said that only after humans have had enough to eat, enough shelter and a comfortable lifestyle would they engage in art, philosophy, and of course a revolutionary life :). If one was to come from the middle class one would have all of the prerequisites (shelter/food/clothing) and would be able to explore their society and take an active role in it as opposed to the role an animal would take and a worker would sometimes, and I stress sometimes take, a passive role in which they are merely functioning within the society and not taking a step back and thinking "Hey, we need to take and active role in changing this society!". This was also a reason Marx said Socialism couldn't have arisen out of pre-class society, the productive forces were not geared to make a surplus great enough to allow pre-class labourers to focus on philosophy, art or what have you, and it is only now with a mass consumer capitalist economy that a great surplus has made it more than possible to create a socialist society...

Well I went a bit off topic, but back to it, If it wasn't for extra comfort recieved by the workers and the rest of society there wouldn't have been the revolutions of the previous century.

[mentalbunny]

IR, that was a great post! Really really insightful and useful. Thanks for that.

[Organic Revolution]

i am a dire socialist to the end and a lower middle class person. i have to sell my man power to the rich golfer types. but im only 14.... would that still make me a good socialist.

[redstar2000]

Don't see why not.

:cool: