When will be the time?

[The-Spark]

When will we know that it is time for socialism and communism? When will capitalism reach its end phase and how will we know when it happens? How can we be sure its time and what signs can we look for?

[xskater11x]

Really, it depends on how you look at it, and there are many ways people believe communism can come about. The philosophy of Karl Marx is what I find particular interesting, but I am sure, I actually know, some people would argue there are other ways for it to come around.

The theories of Marx say that capitalism has its own life-cycle, starting with depression, then exponential growth, followed by another depression and so on, with the severity of the depression increasing each time. Investment in new technology is said to be the cause since cappies are more likely to spend money in new technology to improve efficiency then in labor, so profits would take a downturn. The overall idea is that during the depression, the proletariat could stage a well organized revolution and overthrow the ruling class. The proletariat could then setup an intermediary government in which its needs were meant, not the ruling class', effectively, this should suppress the ruling class entirely, allowing for the movement to communism. Browsing Wikipedia also introduces the theory of a peaceful takeover in countries with a strong democratic institution.

[Faux Real]

Global capitalist economic failure and depression IMO. The cause will likely be once global oil production is at a severe low. Then the 'superpowers' will go around starting wars, they will be hit hard by trade being cutoff, and their populations will lose their quality of life until they become disillusioned with the capitalist system is not sustainable. Just my view though.

[praxicoide]

In Grundisse, Marx spoke of the historical importance of pluslabour for the conditions of the revolution; when wealth becomes less dependant on the time worked and more on the power of work placed in motion.

[rouchambeau]

Next Tuesday. Didn't you get the memo?

Really, it starts whenever we make it. The conditions are favorable enough right now. People just have to be courageous enough to do it.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Rouchambeau I think you mean it starts when the working class makes it.

Mercifully, these things are unpredicatable, or the ruling class could nip them in the bud.

[The-Spark]

So how could we prepare for the next deppression, how could we prepare now. Should we not be ready if we are to stage a well organized proletariat revolution?

[xskater11x]

We should always be ready for a revolution of the proletariat thats what forums like these are for.

[RGacky3]

I don't think its a matter of when the time will be, Capitalism was a bad oppressive system to begin with, Socialism would have been good 4000 years ago, its just a matter of pushing for it. So the time for Socialism is now, I don't buy into the Marxist analysis that Social systems are inevitable and have to run their course, or that they nessesarily must fade, and that what comes next must come, its not up to history, its up to people.

[The-Spark]

I agree, why couldnt we fight capitalism now, i could not stand to live under this system, living like a sheep, waiting for it to run its course, would not people be served better under socialism? should we not start it now, for people are dying and being oppressed now, why should we wait?

[redcannon]

Originally posted by The-[email protected] 16, 2007 10:25 pm
I agree, why couldnt we fight capitalism now, i could not stand to live under this system, living like a sheep, waiting for it to run its course, would not people be served better under socialism? should we not start it now, for people are dying and being oppressed now, why should we wait?
Unfortunately, waiting for it to run its course will probably be the only way to go about it. The masses of people will not revolutionize until into is necessary, and by necessary I mean a life or death situation. As Global Capitalism begins more and more wars and scores of countries turn to fascism to perpetuate the system, living conditions will become very terrible. So terrible, in fact, that people will want to change their situation enough to get their hands dirty.

I'm sorry to say this, but things will get a lot worse before they get better. Capitalism sucks ass now, but I'm afraid that it will take more then that to get the masses riled up for revolution.

In the mean time, there are several ways to fight capitalism in your own ways. See the Practice Forum, its got a lot of great stuff

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Spark:


So how could we prepare for the next deppression, how could we prepare now. Should we not be ready if we are to stage a well organized proletariat revolution?

Revolutions are not caused by depressions, or by depressions alone. They happen, as Lenin said, when the ruling class can no longer carry on ruling in the same old way, and the working class will no longer let them.

So you have to have major international ructions to trigger them, or some other profound local causes. These will have to come on the back of other longer term structural, economic and political causes (as happened in Russian in 1917 -- i.e., long-term oppression and hyper-exploitation over many centuries by a decaying ruling class, rapid industrialisation, a murderous war -- so that, in 1917 Russia was like a tinder box).

Leninists prepare for revolutions now by building a party orientated around the working class, recruiting worker members, and gaining the wider trust of that class. They do the later by supporting every strike and all the stuggles of the oppressed minorities against their oppresssion, politically agitating where necessary. Over time they show that they have the best ideas aimed at workers freeing themselves from their exploiters.

That means that if and when workers rise up, the above activity will have paid off, and worker revolutionsries can help steer the revolution in the right direction.

Of course, as with most things, the entire process is far more complex than this will suggest, but this is after all the learning section!

You will have to ask anarchists and Stalinsists/Maoists what they do. I cannot speak for them

But that is what us Leninists do.

[xskater11x]

Yeah, a global depression just seems like the most plausible cause of the fall of the ruling class from power, since it would be their fault anyway, gaining the support of the masses of the proletariat would be much easier when there is a more common and clear problem for everyone.

And as for waiting for capitalism to run its historic course, I see no other way as of now, as a counterrevolution, if enacted, could overthrow any revolution that took place, tomorrow, per say.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Well, gaining the support of the mass or workers is not a foregone conclusion; they could just as easily turn to the right, to the facists, or become confused by centrists.

That is why Leninists have to begin now, and form a base in the working class, so that when things do shift we will not be like total strangers whom workers will distrust.

You have to start winning their trust now.

When a revolution happens, that would be too late.

And a global depression is just a likely to weaken the working class -- that is why I ecluded depressions.

[The-Spark]

So the way to prepare now is to form a party for the workers?

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Well, of and for working people.

Otherwise, when the brown stuff finally does hit the cooling sytem, they will neither know nor trust us.

They have to see we have the best ideas, and that sort of trust takes years to build.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2007 02:31 pm
Yeah, a global depression just seems like the most plausible cause of the fall of the ruling class from power, since it would be their fault anyway, gaining the support of the masses of the proletariat would be much easier when there is a more common and clear problem for everyone.
The experience shows otherwise: depressions are usually the occasion for the ruling class to unleash their most brutal attacks against us.


And as for waiting for capitalism to run its historic course, I see no other way as of now, as a counterrevolution, if enacted, could overthrow any revolution that took place, tomorrow, per say.

Capitalism won't "run its historic course" if we don't make it run it. There are no automatisms in history.

Luís Henrique

[xskater11x]

Originally posted by The-[email protected] 17, 2007 11:15 am
So the way to prepare now is to form a party for the workers?
Forming a party for and of the workers, is the way to introduce workers to the systems that would be eventually implemented into the country/world. The only way to have someone follow you in a time of normalcy is to have them trust you, and any other occasion would be extreme distress, and they may still be wary.



The experience shows otherwise: depressions are usually the occasion for the ruling class to unleash their most brutal attacks against us.

But during a depression, people are more willing to listen to ideas, and if the true nature of the bourgeoisie can be revealed to them in the act during such a time, they are more likely to rebel.

And it is true we must make it run its course since nothing is automatic, everything is actions and reactions, but in a sense we must "push" capitalism to its end, whether passively or aggressively.

[Axel1917]

Originally posted by The-[email protected] 16, 2007 04:37 am
When will we know that it is time for socialism and communism? When will capitalism reach its end phase and how will we know when it happens? How can we be sure its time and what signs can we look for?
Capitalism will not die of a final crisis - its downfall is not inevitable. It will depend on us organizing on correct programme, theory, method, etc. and gaining the trust of the workers by fighting shoulder to shoulder with them. Socialism or barbarism is not an abstract slogan; it is the literal choice that humanity is going to make, and as I have said before: if we don't have socialism in the 21st Century, humanity may not be around by the 22nd Century.

We have entered a very turbulent period in world history, and the pendulum is starting to swing back to the left. There will be decisive struggles in our lifetimes, and we will either live to see the steps being taken toward classless society or we will suffer and die in indescribable barbarism. This is going to depend on us having the correct theory, programme, tactics, etc. There have been many revolutionary movements of the toiling masses - Germany 1918, Spain 1936, France 1968, etc. They have all failed due to the lack of correct and far-sighted democratic leadership. We must not fail again. Continual failures could literally come with the cost of the life of humanity!

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

xskater11x, you could be right, but history tends to show that during depressions workers at best go on the defensive, and are not inclined to consider revolutionary ideas.

[The-Spark]

So im just going to make a lil scene here, we create a party of and for the proletariat, we gain the popularity, the workers trust us and has learned our theories, we gain power, and then when the voting season comes around we're elected to head of state, before capitalism runs its course or the next great deppression comes. Then what?

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Spark:


and then when the voting season comes around we're elected to head of state, before capitalism runs its course or the next great deppression comes.

Well, no one mentioned voting.

There is an old saying, if voting changed anything they'd abolish it.

Voting requires a passive electorate. Socialism is about the active involvement of the vast majority in their own form of democracy.

So, we are talking about a workers' insurrection, to smash the capitalist state, and create a genuine democracy of the vast majority on behalf of the vast majority.

What happens next will depend on the concrete circumstances of the day, and since it is up to workers to deicde it would be presumptuous of us to do that for them now (even if we could predict the future with any accuracy!).

[The-Spark]

right, okay i get it :)

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Good, now if you read that book I linked to, it will explain it to you in more detail.

http://www.comcen.com.au/~marcn/redflag/ar.../hmw/index.html (http://www.comcen.com.au/~marcn/redflag/archive/harman/hmw/index.html)

[The-Spark]

okay, ill get started on it now.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Ok, and when you get a chance, check out the links I have posted in the History section to a talk given by Mark Steel (a UK revolutionary, and professional comedian) in Chicago in June on the French Revolution. There you will see how revolutions develop, etc.

http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic...entry1292349833 (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=68868&st=0&#entry1292349833)

He is very funny, and has a way of bringing history to life.

[Janus]

When will capitalism reach its end phase and how will we know when it happens? How can we be sure its time and what signs can we look for?

http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=39722
http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=26316

I don't think anyone in here could possibly provide you with an actual time on when communism will come about since there is no mathematical or scientific way to really gauge this kind of stuff. However, general signs to look for within capitalist decay would be increasing wealth gaps, economic instability, etc. which will lead to general unrest that will hopefully help to create a new society.

[RNK]

I hear it's on for next Tuesday.

One thing is for sure, to pick up on where Janus left off -- when this crisis occurs, in which society is threatened by economic instability, it will mark the opening phase of revolutionary struggle, but also of the rise of fascism. It is common for fascists to act like wolves in sheep's clothing, in order to turn the general unrest of the people into something incredibly deranged, by promises of quick fixes, easy scapegoats and a readily-available vent for the people's frustration. When this instability occurs, the revolutionary forces are going to have to work very hard to not only destroy the bourgeois but also extremist right-wing reactionaries.