Bourgeois Venezuelans start to flee for Miami

[Dominicana_1965]

MIAMI (Reuters) - A surge in the number of Venezuelans seeking asylum in the United States has some drawing parallels with Communist Cuba in the early 1960s.
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As populist President Hugo Chavez tightens his grip on the world's fifth largest oil producer, wealthy and middle class citizens are fleeing, just as their counterparts did soon after Fidel Castro seized power in Havana more than 40 years ago.

In 1998, the year Chavez was first elected, just 14 Venezuelans were granted U.S. asylum. That number jumped to 1,086 in the 12 months ending September 30, according to the latest figures from the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services.

The Venezuelans seeking asylum are just a small part of a big exodus, according to Venezuelan activists in Florida, who say some 160,000 Venezuelans are living in the United States illegally or on overstayed visas.

Critics of Chavez say that could mushroom as the Venezuelan leader, who dismisses his critics as "terrorists" and "fascists," pursues his vision of a 21st Century socialist revolution.

"I have no doubt that the middle class and those with some stake in the old Venezuela have legitimate concerns regarding their future livelihood and in some cases safety as the regime hardens and the state moves into every sphere of economic and social activity," said Riordan Roett, director of Latin American studies at Johns Hopkins University.

"If you have young children, you want out. If you have assets that have been seized, or may be seized, you want out as quickly as possible," Roett added. "If you have land that will be expropriated, leave sooner than later. As the alta (upper) bourgeoisie becomes more and more of a target, you want to leave before Hugo Chavez shuts the door."

The number of U.S. asylum grants put Venezuela in 11th place, well behind nations such as its neighbor, Colombia, and deeply impoverished Haiti. But more Venezuelans were granted asylum last year than were natives of trouble spots like Iraq, a country reeling from nightmarish levels of violence.

Asylum is granted by the United States to people who are unable to return to their homeland because of credible fears of persecution. Cases may be filed by individuals or families.

The high rate of approval for Venezuelan asylum applicants has angered the Chavez government and those who see it as a back-handed stab by Washington at his socialist policies and defiant anti-Americanism. Venezuela today is not a despotic state, and granting Venezuelans asylum is a way to embarrass its government, they say.

POLITICIZING ASYLUM

The anger is compounded by the fact that vigorously anti-Castro Cuban American lawmakers from Florida have become prominent supporters of anti-Chavez Venezuelan exiles and staunch critics of Chavez because of his close ties to Cuba.

"The United States has politicized the sacrosanct principle of political asylum," Bernardo Alvarez, Venezuela's ambassador to Washington, told Reuters in a recent interview. "There is no political persecution in Venezuela."

Critics disagree, however, saying asylum seekers are legitimately protesting a president who was acting like a dictator and leading Venezuela toward Cuban-style communism and forcing them to seek refuge abroad.

"Nobody takes the trouble of emigrating to another country because they're OK back home," said Chavez opponent Carlos Fernandez, who was detained in Venezuela in February 2003.

"The fact that there are so many Venezuelans coming here and seeking protection clearly demonstrates the persecution."

Fernandez, 57, was charged with civil rebellion and treason for spearheading a December 2002-January 2003 strike against Chavez that battered Venezuela's economy.

A trucking executive, he headed the country's Fedecamaras business chamber before fleeing to the United States and his current home in the upscale Fort Lauderdale suburb of Weston, known locally as "Westonzuela."

Horacio Medina, 54, was a leader of Venezuela's oil workers' union before fleeing the country in December 2004, in the face of what he says were death threats and an arbitrary arrest order for his prominent role in the two-month strike.

He too is in Weston and said he is one of thousands of former employees of the state oil company Petroleos de Venezuela now working abroad from Alberta, Canada, to Argentina.

"Chavez accused us all of being terrorists," said Medina.

"I'm capable of doing whatever I have to, as long as it's dignified and something clean," said Medina, who noted that his jobs since he left Venezuela had included everything from home inspection to pizza delivery.

"I would never agree to work for a government like Chavez's," he said.

================================================

From the Bourgeois source..Yahoo!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070715/pl_nm/...zuela_asylum_dc (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070715/pl_nm/usa_venezuela_asylum_dc)


If Yahoo! wants to show real dislike they should focus on Peru where the masses are protesting over privatization of water, weak wages & the Free Trade Agreement. Due to the mass disagreement Peru's Bourgeois president Alan Garcia has placed the military in the streets for 30 days.

[Comrade_Scott]

Hmm.... seems venezuela is going down the path of jamaica sad really its gonna end up in the shitter. the revolution can not and will not be peacefull and it seems thats what chavez wants. The mass exedous of mr and mrs moneybags is only the start, soon smeer campaigns and what not will begin affecting him or the coalition he is apart of will start some infighting and die. all that chavez is trying has been done, perfected and failed, the revolution is not a dinner party it cannot be democratic and peacefull because the cappies wont let it be chavez will saddly learn that the hard way.... i wish him the best and good luck

[VukBZ2005]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 12:46 pm
Hmm.... seems venezuela is going down the path of jamaica sad really its gonna end up in the shitter. the revolution can not and will not be peacefull and it seems thats what chavez wants. The mass exedous of mr and mrs moneybags is only the start, soon smeer campaigns and what not will begin affecting him or the coalition he is apart of will start some infighting and die. all that chavez is trying has been done, perfected and failed, the revolution is not a dinner party it cannot be democratic and peacefull because the cappies wont let it be chavez will saddly learn that the hard way.... i wish him the best and good luck
Comrade Scott, how exactly is Venezuela going to end up in the shitter if the rich start to leave?

If it is because of the threat of an American intervention, then you are wrong, be because the United States has already intervened in the affairs of Venezuela, especially since the election of Hugo Chavez Frias as the president of Venezuela in 1998 and they have made two attempts to overthrow him and the Boliviarian Government; the first attempt being a coup d'etat, which lasted for three days and only ended when the people and over 90% of the armed forces revolted and brought him back to power and the other attempt being the "oil workers' strike" of December 2002 - March 2003, which was ended when the oil workers, who were locked out of their jobs by the old officials of PDVSA (the state oil company) and the army seized the oil fields, ejected the old management and restarted oil production. In fact, America just tried an intervention with the "student marches" that took place when the Bolivarian government removed the license from the most important opposition channel in Venezuela; RCTV. The "student marches" practically ceased after three weeks, when the "marches" failed to make an impact in the political functioning of the nation. So it is obvious that Venezuela is ready to resist any other attempts at an intervention by the United States.

[rebel_lord]

Originally posted by Communist FireFox+July 16, 2007 06:19 pm--> (Communist FireFox @ July 16, 2007 06:19 pm)
[email protected] 16, 2007 12:46 pm
Hmm.... seems venezuela is going down the path of jamaica sad really its gonna end up in the shitter. the revolution can not and will not be peacefull and it seems thats what chavez wants. The mass exedous of mr and mrs moneybags is only the start, soon smeer campaigns and what not will begin affecting him or the coalition he is apart of will start some infighting and die. all that chavez is trying has been done, perfected and failed, the revolution is not a dinner party it cannot be democratic and peacefull because the cappies wont let it be chavez will saddly learn that the hard way.... i wish him the best and good luck
Comrade Scott, how exactly is Venezuela going to end up in the shitter if the rich start to leave?

If it is because of the threat of an American intervention, then you are wrong, be because the United States has already intervened in the affairs of Venezuela, especially since the election of Hugo Chavez Frias as the president of Venezuela in 1998 and they have made two attempts to overthrow him and the Boliviarian Government; the first attempt being a coup d'etat, which lasted for three days and only ended when the people and over 90% of the armed forces revolted and brought him back to power and the other attempt being the "oil workers' strike" of December 2002 - March 2003, which was ended when the oil workers, who were locked out of their jobs by the old officials of PDVSA (the state oil company) and the army seized the oil fields, ejected the old management and restarted oil production. In fact, America just tried an intervention with the "student marches" that took place when the Bolivarian government removed the license from the most important opposition channel in Venezuela; RCTV. The "student marches" practically ceased after three weeks, when the "marches" failed to make an impact in the political functioning of the nation. So it is obvious that Venezuela is ready to resist any other attempts at an intervention by the United States. [/b]

Hello, the world is changing i agree, Venezuela will not go down. I don't think that the Venezuelan Revolution will fail, this world is more complex. Socialism is not a sin anymore, the paragidm of capitalism is already collapsing, people will accept socialism a lot better now than they did in the 1990s.

That's like the French Revolution, the new paragidgm destroyed the old one, now it will happen that socialism ideology will destroy capitalistic ideology in all people, because of the fact that political systems evolve, progress, advance. [History shows this] And just like capitalism is better than feudalism. Socialism will replace capitalism because it is a more advanced system

rebel_lord

[Avtomat_Icaro]

The problem might be that Venezuela will experience a brain drain. Skilled people might leave for other countries since they can make more money there. Doctors, lawyers, engineers etc are upper middle class and also go to the US under the pretence of being political refugees.


That's like the French Revolution, the new paragidgm destroyed the old one, now it will happen that socialism ideology will destroy capitalistic ideology in all people, because of the fact that political systems evolve, progress, advance. [History shows this] And just like capitalism is better than feudalism. Socialism will replace capitalism because it is a more advanced system
Then why isnt the whole Third World evolving yet? Its sure going slow!

[Dominicana_1965]

Originally posted by rebel_lord+July 16, 2007 09:47 pm--> (rebel_lord @ July 16, 2007 09:47 pm)
Originally posted by Communist [email protected] 16, 2007 06:19 pm

[email protected] 16, 2007 12:46 pm
Hmm.... seems venezuela is going down the path of jamaica sad really its gonna end up in the shitter. the revolution can not and will not be peacefull and it seems thats what chavez wants. The mass exedous of mr and mrs moneybags is only the start, soon smeer campaigns and what not will begin affecting him or the coalition he is apart of will start some infighting and die. all that chavez is trying has been done, perfected and failed, the revolution is not a dinner party it cannot be democratic and peacefull because the cappies wont let it be chavez will saddly learn that the hard way.... i wish him the best and good luck
Comrade Scott, how exactly is Venezuela going to end up in the shitter if the rich start to leave?

If it is because of the threat of an American intervention, then you are wrong, be because the United States has already intervened in the affairs of Venezuela, especially since the election of Hugo Chavez Frias as the president of Venezuela in 1998 and they have made two attempts to overthrow him and the Boliviarian Government; the first attempt being a coup d'etat, which lasted for three days and only ended when the people and over 90% of the armed forces revolted and brought him back to power and the other attempt being the "oil workers' strike" of December 2002 - March 2003, which was ended when the oil workers, who were locked out of their jobs by the old officials of PDVSA (the state oil company) and the army seized the oil fields, ejected the old management and restarted oil production. In fact, America just tried an intervention with the "student marches" that took place when the Bolivarian government removed the license from the most important opposition channel in Venezuela; RCTV. The "student marches" practically ceased after three weeks, when the "marches" failed to make an impact in the political functioning of the nation. So it is obvious that Venezuela is ready to resist any other attempts at an intervention by the United States.

Hello, the world is changing i agree, Venezuela will not go down. I don't think that the Venezuelan Revolution will fail, this world is more complex. Socialism is not a sin anymore, the paragidm of capitalism is already collapsing, people will accept socialism a lot better now than they did in the 1990s.

That's like the French Revolution, the new paragidgm destroyed the old one, now it will happen that socialism ideology will destroy capitalistic ideology in all people, because of the fact that political systems evolve, progress, advance. [History shows this] And just like capitalism is better than feudalism. Socialism will replace capitalism because it is a more advanced system

rebel_lord [/b]
Economically the people might change but will still maintain a Bourgeois ideology.
Social constructs will exist unabated unless the State finds a way to destroy the Bourgeosie's real weapon...its culture.

[Black Cross]

What's with everyone bailing to Miami?

I have to agree with Comrade Scott. To me, it seems idealistic to think that this peaceful revolution will work. Chavez should cut right to the chase; don't let the bourgeois trash out of the country; that just makes it seem like they're getting off too damn easy.

I would also say that he needs to impose a dictatorship of the proletariat, but I don't know quite enough about the situation; is Chavez backed by the proletariat? If not, then his revolution is even more doomed.


The problem might be that Venezuela will experience a brain drain. Skilled people might leave for other countries since they can make more money there. Doctors, lawyers, engineers etc are upper middle class and also go to the US under the pretence of being political refugees.

Agreed, that's why I think he needs to cut off travel of the bourgeoisie to the U.S. Those people can be easily compelled to work for him if he so wants.

[Dominicana_1965]

Originally posted by Marxist-[email protected] 17, 2007 01:19 am


I would also say that he needs to impose a dictatorship of the proletariat, but I don't know quite enough about the situation; is Chavez backed by the proletariat? If not, then his revolution is even more doomed.

According to recent polls 71.1% of Venezuelans approve of Chavez. Also in the first month of the PSUV registration, 5.1 million Venezuelans registered.

[Comrade_Scott]

comrades it will fail for 3 reasons: 1. the venezuelan government is still using capitalist means eg money profit etc. so far so good with the exedous of capitalists and with them there capital (the driving force behind chavezs many and somewhat overlooked achivements)this will greatly hurt the venezualan socialist revolution as many futre reforms will just not have the capital to help back it.

2. the revolution is by no means a revolution in a true sense of the word cuba was a revolution, venezuela is not, it is democratic socialism at worst two things are wrong with this. first off the people can be fooled and he will be trown out of office next GE or two he may fall victim to an american backed coup and dont say it cant and wont happen again the examples are too great to count an dnext time they wont let him live.

3. and possibly the most important america is finnaly realizing it will not be the next UK in the sense of controlling however many thirds of the world so they will turn again to there backyard to clean house well see more of it after 08, the americans will need either oil or stratigic strength and either way venezuela stands in the way. the parties that form his coalition is also looking very fragile with the cp claming he is taking too long and the whole thing looks britle so the ice will have to be treded very lightly. thats why i say it will fail

[Dominicana_1965]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2007 01:38 am
comrades it will fail for 3 reasons: 1. the venezuelan government is still using capitalist means eg money profit etc. so far so good with the exedous of capitalists and with them there capital (the driving force behind chavezs many and somewhat overlooked achivements)this will greatly hurt the venezualan socialist revolution as many futre reforms will just not have the capital to help back it.

2. the revolution is by no means a revolution in a true sense of the word cuba was a revolution, venezuela is not, it is democratic socialism at worst two things are wrong with this. first off the people can be fooled and he will be trown out of office next GE or two he may fall victim to an american backed coup and dont say it cant and wont happen again the examples are too great to count an dnext time they wont let him live.

3. and possibly the most important america is finnaly realizing it will not be the next UK in the sense of controlling however many thirds of the world so they will turn again to there backyard to clean house well see more of it after 08, the americans will need either oil or stratigic strength and either way venezuela stands in the way. the parties that form his coalition is also looking very fragile with the cp claming he is taking too long and the whole thing looks britle so the ice will have to be treded very lightly. thats why i say it will fail
Another problem is that the PSUV does not have the defensive strategy that the Cuban guerillas had. In order to preserve a genuine DoP the party must be constructed from the bottom, not from the top to the bottom. Democratic Socialists that got taken down like Allende are the prime examples.

[Comrade_Scott]

so then explain manley please

[Black Cross]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2007 01:44 am
Another problem is that the PSUV does not have the defensive strategy that the Cuban guerillas had. In order to preserve a genuine DoP the party must be constructed from the bottom, not from the top to the bottom. Democratic Socialists that got taken down like Allende are the prime examples.

Are you referring to defensive strategies before, or after the coup d'etat?


According to recent polls 71.1% of Venezuelans approve of Chavez. Also in the first month of the PSUV registration, 5.1 million Venezuelans registered.

Thanks for the info comrade. So, with that statistic in mind, I think he should definitely impose the will of the proletariat on the bourgeois and petty bourgeois classes. If he has that much of an approval rating, then why is he even trying to make a peaceful revolution? He better strike while the irons hot, or he's gonna fail.


1. the venezuelan government is still using capitalist means eg money profit etc. so far so good with the exedous of capitalists and with them there capital (the driving force behind chavezs many and somewhat overlooked achivements)this will greatly hurt the venezualan socialist revolution as many futre reforms will just not have the capital to help back it.

At what point would you, personally, stop using capital?

[Comrade_Scott]

the question wasnt would i not use capital, it is that venezuela is using shaky unsure capital and do they have backup because once it dies then they are fucked, what happens when the oil boom dies as well chavez needs to stop going on personal rants and what not and sure up his home. cuba was smart they foze assets thus keeping money in cuba venez needs to save up money from this oil boom and keep it if not then the revolution which right now depends on shaky cash will fail

[Dominicana_1965]

Are you referring to defensive strategies before, or after the coup d'etat?

Just overall, a revolution is more heavily protected if the party is developed among the guerilla faction (bottom), in that they respond much quicker to constant threats. The party that gets built from the top to the bottom sets a very strict path for the military, while the guerilla party is more ubiquitous.


Thanks for the info comrade. So, with that statistic in mind, I think he should definitely impose the will of the proletariat on the bourgeois and petty bourgeois classes. If he has that much of an approval rating, then why is he even trying to make a peaceful revolution? He better strike while the irons hot, or he's gonna fail.

Sadly I don't know..although personally I find the way that the PSUV is currently structured very active among the proletarians.

[redterror19]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 04:36 am
The anger is compounded by the fact that vigorously anti-Castro Cuban American lawmakers from Florida have become prominent supporters of anti-Chavez Venezuelan exiles and staunch critics of Chavez because of his close ties to Cuba.

Republicans importing more voters, as they did with the Cubans. Maybe Brian DePalma and Oliver Stone will finally film Scarface 2.

[freedumb]

Originally posted by redterror19+July 17, 2007 03:55 am--> (redterror19 @ July 17, 2007 03:55 am)
[email protected] 16, 2007 04:36 am
The anger is compounded by the fact that vigorously anti-Castro Cuban American lawmakers from Florida have become prominent supporters of anti-Chavez Venezuelan exiles and staunch critics of Chavez because of his close ties to Cuba.

Republicans importing more voters, as they did with the Cubans. Maybe Brian DePalma and Oliver Stone will finally film Scarface 2. [/b]
LOL!

Hopefully the anti-Chavez, anti-Hero protagonist in Scarface 2 will make a slightly less tacky and random anti-communist speech than in Scarface.

Scene: interrogation room. An oversized portrait of the Commander-in-Chief, his highness George Walker Bush, hangs prominently on the wall

...

'Hey Tony, you a communist?'

'Aye, Aye! Do you know what it's like? Not being able to watch my favourite soap opera on RCTV anymore, not having the basic right to bribe my elected officials! We have to live under a dictator who hides his authoritarianism by having the majority of the population support him! So you, don't talk to me about communism!'

*police guy longingly stares into Antonio mk.2's eyes, moved by the horrible repression he has suffered*

...

[Avtomat_Icaro]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2007 01:59 am
so then explain manley please
Manley lacked outside support for one, as he tried to improve the situation in Jamaica by nationalising natural resources, other countries kept their prices low so the West could simply turn to them.

Later on Manley came back to power and became more right wing...

[chebol]

The naiivety and self-righteous ignorance expressed hereabouts is astounding. Oh "It's gonna fail. I KNOW it is, coz it's not 'bottom up". Etc, etc etc."

Lesson #1. There currently *is no* PSUV. Only the intent to make one, and over 5 million people who want to be a part. The process is barely beginning, so there is absolutely no basis for the know-it-all statements being made here.

Lesson #2. The whole process of the PSUV, as it develops, is intended to be EXACTLY THAT - BOTTOM UP. Don't open your mouth unless you are sure that what comes out is not doggerel.

Lesson #3. Yes I DO know what I'm talking about. A good friend of mine is working with Marta Harnecker on developing a structure for the PSUV that enables the grass roots to avoid the imposition of a bureaucratic, top-down, control on the party. From Chavez or anyone else/

Lesson #4. If you want to make a revolution, you don't sit around counting peanuts and finding small-minded reasons for why a revolution being made elsewhere will fail. You get off your arse and do it, while encouraging those that are also doing it.

I also suggest our hyper-intelligent friends here get a bit of time off omniscience and check out a very interesting book - "Aldabonazo" by Armando Hart. It's an insider's account of the Cuban underground (ie. in the cities), and contains more than enough info to make you think twice about giving Venezuela the flick compared with Cuba. They are very different beasts, but many of the lessons to be learned are the same, if only you want to learn, instead of preach.

[Raúl Duke]

Actually this been going on for sometime...

I live in Doral, where most of these bourgeois refuges are at.

Interestingly some (maybe many) Venezuelan students in my school complain that "its not fair we don't get a free green card like the Cubans"

They aren't all that friendly....(and they don't seem friendly to Cubans either)

[Dominicana_1965]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2007 11:51 am
The naiivety and self-righteous ignorance expressed hereabouts is astounding. Oh "It's gonna fail. I KNOW it is, coz it's not 'bottom up". Etc, etc etc."

Lesson #1. There currently *is no* PSUV. Only the intent to make one, and over 5 million people who want to be a part. The process is barely beginning, so there is absolutely no basis for the know-it-all statements being made here.

Lesson #2. The whole process of the PSUV, as it develops, is intended to be EXACTLY THAT - BOTTOM UP. Don't open your mouth unless you are sure that what comes out is not doggerel.

Lesson #3. Yes I DO know what I'm talking about. A good friend of mine is working with Marta Harnecker on developing a structure for the PSUV that enables the grass roots to avoid the imposition of a bureaucratic, top-down, control on the party. From Chavez or anyone else/

Lesson #4. If you want to make a revolution, you don't sit around counting peanuts and finding small-minded reasons for why a revolution being made elsewhere will fail. You get off your arse and do it, while encouraging those that are also doing it.

I also suggest our hyper-intelligent friends here get a bit of time off omniscience and check out a very interesting book - "Aldabonazo" by Armando Hart. It's an insider's account of the Cuban underground (ie. in the cities), and contains more than enough info to make you think twice about giving Venezuela the flick compared with Cuba. They are very different beasts, but many of the lessons to be learned are the same, if only you want to learn, instead of preach.
Thank you chebol.