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Robot Rebellion
17th April 2003, 02:17
There are so many reasons to get rid of money... It disconnects you with the fruit of the labor, it represents unnatural rigidity, and it doesn’t recognize the failure of capitalist to mount a logical claim on the property that money buys. Worse, as it itself can be an exploitative tool to enslave the labor others, with the monopoly on this means of production…

If I and another limit ourselves to partaking in labor only with an intermediary of exchange, we have to sell our souls to those who have this intermediary of exchange. I can fix shoes, another can make dinner, but we can’t enjoy each other's labor as we have no money. So then we contribute a little of our labor to the friendly banker, to which we purchase money to circulate in our economy, but to which we had to forgo our labor for intrinsically worthless pieces of paper or gold. The US is rich because the dollar is an international currency, where the dollar holders sell worthless peices of paper, and in return get stereos, cars, food, lumber, etc...

Money can't enter an economy naturally. It can only enter via force/coercion/deception/counterfeiting where nobody wants the stuff, because it is intrinsically worthless. It is akin to trying to push a balloon underwater... Important, as without a legitimate source, it can not have a legit claim on it now (like how land can't be owned, even if you bought it with labor from another).

Once money enters an economy it is inherently unstable. I acquire money not for its intrinsic value, but to fool another that it has intrinsic value... A ponzi scheme, where the last ones that acquires such, gets screwed. When the belief in that form of money collapses (of course the poor are the last to know about this), the finance tycoons make out big by manipulating currencies.

Fractional banking represents all the insidious aspects of capitalism (aka privatising gains, while socializing cost). Banks actually started as goldsmith to which people would store their gold in their safekeeping, to which the goldsmith would give them a claim slip on such... Since a goldslip (aka checking account) could be redeemed at any time in gold (aka dollars or whatever your favorite monitery base), the gold slip was in fact gold. The goldsmith (and later banker) notice a percentage of gold always tends to remain in the vault... If hoodlums made off with that percentage, the banker would not be for worse off... The banker then transforms the claim slip into a promise slip on future gold and not present gold, and can counterfeit the money supply, through loaning what they truly don't have to enrich themselves. If you or I counterfeit money, we get locked up by our favorite capitalist oppressors. If banks does it, they are deemed 'helping the local economy'. We have an awful situation where banks create most of our money. The problem is with a debt backed money system (the only way banks can get their counterfeited money into the economy), we have not only an overemphasis on investment... But a system where the debts are unpayable for repaying such will collapse the money supply. If everyone tried to pay down their debts, this would kill reserves thus contracting the very thing needed to pay off our debts! The rich get richer and poor get poorer indeed...

Your typical econ book will gloss over the expansion of the money supply by banks from the monetary base (M0) to (M1 base + demand deposits). They accept the fact that banks create money, (but since probably a lot of economist are employed by banks), gloss over this jaw dropping monstrosity.

Due to the conspiracy of ignorance, many are unaware of this, but it was not always like this...

Andrew Jackson - "If the people only understood the rank injustice of our money and banking system, there would be a revolution before morning."

Thomas Jefferson - "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous than standing armies."

Andrew Jackson (1833 - to the shadow banking moguls) - "You are a den of thieves - vipers. I intend to rout you out, and by the Eternal God I will rout you out!"

Andrew Jackson - "If Congress has a right under the Constitution to issue paper money, it was given to them to use by themselves, not to be delegated to individuals or corporations."

"Permit me to issue and control the money of a nation and I care not who makes its laws." (Mayer Amschel Rothschild)

"A great industrial Nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the Nation and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the world -- no longer a Government of free opinion, no longer a government of conviction and vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of small groups of dominant men." (Woodrow Wilson)

"If the American people ever allow the banks to control issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers occupied." (Thomas Jefferson)

"We are completely dependent on the commercial Banks. Someone has to borrow every dollar we have in circulation, cash or credit. If the Banks create ample synthetic money we are prosperous; if not, we starve. We are absolutely without a permanent money system. When one gets a complete grasp of the picture, the tragic absurdity of our hopeless position is almost incredible, but there it is. It is the most important subject intelligent persons can investigate and reflect upon. It is so important that our present civilization may collapse unless it becomes widely understood and the defects remedied soon." (Robert H. Hemphill, Credit Manager of Federal Reserve Bank, Atlanta, Ga.)

From http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/monie.htm

APRIL 14, 1865: A short time after President Lincoln ordered the Lincoln greenbacks to be printed; which would deprive the banks from charging interest on the money they would have printed, President Lincoln was assassinated by John Wilkes Booth. It's been proven this was a conspiracy because of the other four men who were involved in the assassination, and it has also been established that these men were on the payroll of the Rothschild's.

1963: Six days prior to President John F. Kennedy being assassinated, he ordered the Treasury to print United States Notes to be used as legal tender, a limited amount were printed before his untimely death. This action would have put the Federal Reserve out of business because they would no longer be able to collect interest on the money they would have printed. This would have eventually removed the financial and political control the international bankers had over this country. Ten days prior to his assassination President Kennedy said "The high office of President has been used to foment a plot to destroy the American's freedom, and before I leave office I must inform the citizen of his plight."

NOVEMBER 22, 1963: President John F. Kennedy is assassinated. One of the first acts President Johnson orders is the reversal of the order President Kennedy had made, which had allowed the printing of United States Notes without interest. Was President Kennedy assassinated for the same reasons as President Lincoln?

Jefferson: "The question, whether one generation of men has a right to bind another, is a question of such consequences as not only to merit decision, but place also among the fundamental principles of every government. The course of reflection in which we are immersed here [France] on the elementary principles of society has presented this question to my mind; and that no such obligation can be transmitted, I think very capable of proof. I set out on this ground, which I suppose to be self-evident: that the earth belongs in usufruct to the living; that the dead have neither powers nor rights over it. If [one generation] could charge another with a debt, then the earth would belong to the dead and not to the living generation. Then, no generation can contract debts greater than may be paid during the course of its own existence."

"The few who understand the system, will either be so interested from it's profits or so dependant
on it's favors, that there will be no opposition from that class." -- Rothschild Brothers of London, 1863

"Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of all industry and
commerce." -- James A. Garfield, President of the United States

"Should government refrain from regulation (taxation), the worthlessness of the money becomes
apparent and the fraud can no longer be concealed." -- John Maynard Keynes, "Consequences of
Peace."

"History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and it's issuance". -- James Madison

"The money powers prey upon the nation in times of peace and conspire against it in times of adversity. It is more despotic than a monarchy, more insolent than autocracy, and more selfish than bureaucracy. It denounces as public enemies, all who question it's methods or throw light upon it's crimes. I have two great enemies, the Southern Army in front of me and the Bankers in the rear. Of the two, the one at my rear is my greatest foe.. corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money powers of the country will endeavor to prolong it's reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until the wealth is aggregated in the hands of a few, and the Republic is destroyed. Abraham Lincoln

SIR JOSIAH STAMP, (President of the Bank of England in the 1920's, the second richest man in Britain)
"Banking was conceived in iniquity, and was born in sin. The Bankers own the Earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the power to create deposits, and with the flick of the pen, they will create enough deposits, to buy it back again. However, take it away from them, and all the great fortunes like mine will disappear, and they ought to disappear, for this would be a happier and better world to live in. But if you wish to remain the slaves of Bankers, and pay the cost of your own slavery, let them continue to create deposits."

Lincoln "Yes; we may all congratulate ourselves that this cruel war is nearing its close. It has cost a vast amount of treasure and blood. The best blood of the flower of American youth has been freely offered upon our country's altar that the Nation might live. It has been, indeed a trying hour for the Republic; but I see in the future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of the war, corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed. I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety of my country than ever before, even in the midst of the war."

LEON N. TOLSTOY
"Money is a new form of slavery, and distinguishable from the old simply by the fact that it is impersonal -- that there is no human relation between master and slave."

PRESIDENT JOHN ADAMS
"All the perplexities, confusions and distresses in America arise not from defects in the constitution or confederation, not from want of honor or virtue, as much as from downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit and circulation."

Benjamin Franklin "The refusal of King George to operate an honest colonial money system which freed the ordinary man from the clutches of the manipulators was probably the prime cause of the Revolution."

"We would have gladly borne the little tax on tea, and other matters, had it not been that they took from us our money, which created great unemployment and dissatisfaction. Within a year, the poor houses were filled. The hungry and homeless walked the streets everywhere."

Thomas Edison “It is a terrible situation, when the Government, to insure the national wealth, must go in debt and submit to ruinous interest charges, at the hands of men, who control the fictitious value of gold. Interest is the invention of Satan."

Pete
17th April 2003, 03:27
So long. So much copiing, but yes money should be abolished for this one reason: It causes inequalities between people, creating classes.

Valkyrie
17th April 2003, 05:43
I have to read your post. There's a lot there. But I so totally agree. Besides.... us anarchists can't be walking around pics of presidents in our pockets!!!!

Trade and Barter.. that is the best inter-cooperative exchange system. trade and barter would end the capitalist world market as well as price fixing. The value of commodities and services would be determined only by those individual parties involved in the trade. I think it could work nicely.

Urban Rubble
25th April 2003, 10:36
I swear sometimes I think you guys are under the impression the world is a community of about a thousand people. Trade and barter ? Are you serious ?

Organic Revolution
26th April 2003, 01:34
it would work urban..... every one of diff. contenets trades with each other. it works quite well

smoer
26th April 2003, 10:26
so conculsion: if you have no money you also don't have troubles becuase no taxes and you cant waste it only 1thing you cant buy any food so i think a liitle money is good enough

Donut Master
26th April 2003, 15:58
We can't get rid of money yet, read my post about this in the anarchist thread. I was trying to explain laziness, but I really ended up talking about why we still need money as an incentive to work. Well, if the admins don't mind a little copy n' paste...



People are lazy... myself included. But you don't force them to work, you provide them with positive incentive. In capitalism, the main incentive to work, for many people, is to avoid starvation. Under a more humane system, everyone would be gauranteed the necesseties of life (shelter, food, medicine) but if they want to aquire more luxuries, like buy a new car or house of their own, they will have to work to earn money.

So, to get people to work, you don't force them with punishment, you bribe them with reward. Of course, the best incentive is the desire to become a positive addition to the commninity and the joy you take in your work - but we've got to be realistic, until we build robots to clean our toilets for us, there will still be shit jobs that no one wants to do unless you offer them a large sum of cash. Until you phase out hard labor, we still need money.

RedCeltic - why are people lazy? They are disillusioned with a system where they work hard constantly and achieve nothing. Meanwhile, they see CEOs who sit around all day signing papers and eating donuts (mmm...) who get paid 200 times as much! When one of the positive incentives to work - monetary reward - is distributed so disproportiantely like this, so unfairly, people will shirk, because they just don't care anymore. In present capitalist society, the amount of money you recieve is not proporionate to the difficulty or importance of your work. We would be better off with "from each according to his ability, to each according to his deed..."

If people were truely given a fair reward for their work, like capitalism claims to do, the apathy level will reduce dramatically.

Organic Revolution
26th April 2003, 18:51
burn your money.... free your self from capitalism!

Robot Rebellion
28th April 2003, 03:48
Donut guy...

Read: The Abolition of Work http://www.zpub.com/notes/black-work.html as it will answer many of your questions.

What's wrong with being lazy? Is a slave that doesn't want to pick cotton lazy? If you don’t want to work in a gulag, are you lazy? Are you saying YOU should then have the power to force him to work? The number one source of job satisfaction is feeling productive, to which most workers don't in our messed up world. Being able to identify with the fruit of your labor, is not impossible when it serves the statist/capitalist through their control of money. Communism can work. It is propertyism that can't. 'Give and ye shall recieve...' This is how communism works. If I give to another, they will have less incentive to give only to themselves, and can give to others, thus creating a natural circuit. This is natural and not the artificial board game we have now, with most pieces eliminated from the board. Your cause and effect is wrong. Capitalism doesn't prevent greed/laziness, it champions it. When scarcity is thrust down upon me, I attempt to create scarcity for others, thus creating a self-fulfilling prophecy. This is how it works... Capitalism creates economic distortions, (like a lord hiring food testers). If with free labor, the people choose not to partake in such beastly activity, score one for labor. To wonder who will build your powdered wigs, castles, and pork pie hats misses the point to which we should be thankful for all labor, and should labor choose not to make such, then we should accept such.

Organic Revolution
28th April 2003, 03:49
money is a shield from socialist thought... free your self from oney free your self from cpaitalism

Palmares
28th April 2003, 04:04
Money is the materialised value of labor (stereotypically in the past). Itself, has no value, but is the value of various commodities.

Money does not have equality.
Equality does not have money.

Aren't incentives a result of competition? Which is a fundamental concept of capitalism.

In the system (capitalism) which engulfs much of this earth, money is unavoidable. It is the result of the system.

We cannot have money with the current system. But it must be noted that we also cannot remove monetary value in transitional systems either.

No money, is only possible under communism or anarchism.

Comrade Gorley
3rd May 2003, 00:18
Can you believe that cappies go to wars and slaughter each other over green pieces of paper and tiny chunks of metal (both stylized, of course)?

And people call commies "out of touch". :angry:

Dirty Commie
3rd May 2003, 00:26
I do believe it, but this war is for a polluting, bad smelling well of black goo.

Urban Rubble
6th May 2003, 03:43
Hey guys, I don't know what the fuck is going on, I didn't write the post from before with my name attached to it. I think I have an ultra capitalist hacker type on my ass. There is this kid that I always argue with on a skateboarding.com message board, lately every post I put on there dealing with communism or anything leftward has been deleted an hour or so after I post it, keep in mind this is an un-moderated board. After this happened for awhile my posts started disappearing off of this board. It happened quite a few times. Now someone is posting on this board under my nick. Also, I only have one star, how did the guy with my nick have 2 ?

peaccenicked
6th May 2003, 16:25
Just a snatch from Lenin gives us a clue to the practical problems of early socialism. Yet I think when we have socialism in the 'advanced' countries the political culture will be on a higher level but the legacy of capitalism that Lenin points to will still be existent.
''Bourgeois authors have been using up reams of paper praising competition, private enterprise, and all the other magnificent virtues and blessings of the capitalists and the capitalist system. Socialists have been accused of refusing to understand the importance of these virtues, and of ignoring "human nature". As a matter of fact, however, capitalism long ago replaced small, independent commodity production, under which competition could develop enterprise, energy and bold initiative to any considerable extent, by large- and very large-scale factory production, joint stock companies, syndicates and other monopolies. Under such capitalism, competition means the incredibly brutal suppression of the enterprise, energy and bold initiative of the mass of the population, of its overwhelming majority, of ninety-nine out of every hundred toilers; it also means that competition is replaced by financial fraud, nepotism, servility on the upper rungs of the social ladder.

Far from extinguishing competition, socialism, on the contrary, for the first time creates the opportunity for employing it on a really wide and on a really mass scale, for actually drawing the majority of working people into a field of labour in which they can display their abilities, develop the capacities, and reveal those talents, so abundant among the people whom capitalism crushed, suppressed and strangled in thousands and millions.

Now that a socialist government is in power our task is to organise competition. ''
From ''How to organize competition''