The Israeli-Palestinean fight for the "Holy Land" - yea, thi

[Klondike]

ok, there's got to be a way to stop all this off and on fighting and, with Marx's ghost as my witness, I'm determined to find a way to bring the fighting to an end! My idea is that President Arafat uses the cheap and effective way of non-violence. It will work and the Israelis will eventually stop the oppression.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

I completely agree! America indirectly and directly funnels loads of money to both sides, yet do nothing towards extablishing peace, except give some weapons to one side, with which you can intimidate the other, no very constructive in the ways of peace, but then against, is that really what we expect from America.

America continues to claim that Palestine is a terrorist nation and Israel must be maintained a state, while the UN keeps tring to stop Israel from it's masacre with about 65 resolutions!

UN Resolutions Against Israel, 1955-1992
1. Resolution 106: "... 'condemns' Israel for Gaza raid"
2. Resolution 111: "...'condemns' Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people"
3. Resolution 127: "...'recommends' Israel suspend its 'no-man's zone' in Jerusalem"
4. Resolution 162: "...'urges' Israel to comply with UN decisions"
5. Resolution 171: "...determines flagrant violations' by Israel in its attack on Syria"
6. Resolution 228: "...'censures' Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control"
7. Resolution 237: "...'urges' Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees"
8. Resolution 248: "... 'condemns' Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan"
9. Resolution 250: "... 'calls' on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem"
10. Resolution 251: "... 'deeply deplores' Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250"
11. Resolution 252: "...'declares invalid' Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital"
12. Resolution 256: "... 'condemns' Israeli raids on Jordan as 'flagrant violation""
13. Resolution 259: "...'deplores' Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation"
14. Resolution 262: "...'condemns' Israel for attack on Beirut airport"
15. Resolution 265: "... 'condemns' Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan"
16. Resolution 267: "...'censures' Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem"
17. Resolution 270: "...'condemns' Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon"
18. Resolution 271: "...'condemns' Israel's failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem"
19. Resolution 279: "...'demands' withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon"
20. Resolution 280: "....'condemns' Israeli's attacks against Lebanon"
21. Resolution 285: "...'demands' immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon"
22. Resolution 298: "...'deplores' Israel's changing of the status of Jerusalem"
23. Resolution 313: "...'demands' that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon"
24. Resolution 316: "...'condemns' Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon"
25. Resolution 317: "...'deplores' Israel's refusal to release Arabs abducted in Lebanon"
26. Resolution 332: "...'condemns' Israel's repeated attacks against Lebanon"
27. Resolution 337: "...'condemns' Israel for violating Lebanon's sovereignty"
28. Resolution 347: "...'condemns' Israeli attacks on Lebanon"
29. Resolution 425: "...'calls' on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon"
30. Resolution 427: "...'calls' on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon'
31. Resolution 444: "...'deplores' Israel's lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces"
32. Resolution 446: "...'determines' that Israeli settlements are a 'serious obstruction' to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention"
33. Resolution 450: "...'calls' on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon"
34. Resolution 452: "...'calls' on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories"
35. Resolution 465: "...'deplores' Israel's settlements and asks all member states not to assist Israel's settlements program"
36. Resolution 467: "...'strongly deplores' Israel's military intervention in Lebanon"
37. Resolution 468: "...'calls' on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return"
38. Resolution 469: "...'strongly deplores' Israel's failure to observe the council's order not to deport Palestinians" 39. Resolution 471: "... 'expresses deep concern' at Israel's failure to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention"
40. Resolution 476: "... 'reiterates' that Israel's claims to Jerusalem are 'null and void'"
41. Resolution 478: "...'censures (Israel) in the strongest terms' for its claim to Jerusalem in its 'Basic Law'"
42. Resolution 484: "...'declares it imperative' that Israel re-admit two deported Palestinian mayors"
43. Resolution 487: "...'strongly condemns' Israel for its attack on Iraq's nuclear facility"
44. Resolution 497: "...'decides' that Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan Heights is 'null and void' and demands that Israel rescind its decision forthwith"
45. Resolution 498: "...'calls' on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon"
46. Resolution 501: "...'calls' on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops"
47. Resolution 509: "...'demands' that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon"
48. Resolution 515: "...'demands' that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and allow food supplies to be brought in"
49. Resolution 517: "...'censures' Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon"
50. Resolution 518: "...'demands' that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon"
51. Resolution 520: "...'condemns' Israel's attack into West Beirut"
52. Resolution 573: "...'condemns' Israel 'vigorously' for bombing Tunisia in attack on PLO headquarters
53. Resolution 587: "...'takes note' of previous calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw"
54. Resolution 592: "...'strongly deplores' the killing of Palestinian students at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops" 55. Resolution 605: "...'strongly deplores' Israel's policies and practices denying the human rights of Palestinians
56. Resolution 607: "...'calls' on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention
57. Resolution 608: "...'deeply regrets' that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians"
58. Resolution 636: "...'deeply regrets' Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians
59. Resolution 641: "...'deplores' Israel's continuing deportation of Palestinians
60. Resolution 672: "...'condemns' Israel for violence against Palestinians at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount
61. Resolution 673: "...'deplores' Israel's refusal to cooperate with the United Nations
62. Resolution 681: "...'deplores' Israel's resumption of the deportation of Palestinians
63. Resolution 694: "...'deplores' Israel's deportation of Palestinians and calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return
64. Resolution 726: "...'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of Palestinians
65. Resolution 799: "...'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of 413 Palestinians and calls for their immediate return.

The following are the resolutions vetoed by the United States during the period of September, 1972, to May, 1990 to protect Israel from council criticism:
1. ....condemned Israel's attack against Southern against southern Lebanon and Syria..."
2. ....affirmed the rights of the Palestinian people to self-determination, statehood and equal protections..."
3. ...condemned Israel's air strikes and attacks in southern Lebanon and its murder of innocent civilians..."
4. ....called for self-determination of Palestinian people..."
5. ....deplored Israel's altering of the status of Jerusalem, which is recognized as an international city by most world nations and the United Nations..."
6. ....affirmed the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people..."
7. ....endorsed self-determination for the Palestinian people..."
8. ....demanded Israel's withdrawal from the Golan Heights..."
9. ....condemned Israel's mistreatment of Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip and its refusal to abide by the Geneva convention protocols of civilized nations..."
10. ....condemned an Israeli soldier who shot eleven Moslem worshippers at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount near Al-Aqsa Mosque in the Old City of Jerusalem..."
11. ....urged sanctions against Israel if it did not withdraw from its invasion of Lebanon..."
12. ....urged sanctions against Israel if it did not withdraw from its invasion of Beirut..."
14. ....urged cutoff of economic aid to Israel if it refused to withdraw from its occupation of Lebanon..."
15. ....condemned continued Israeli settlements in occupied territories in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, denouncing them as an obstacle to peace..."
16. ....deplores Israel's brutal massacre of Arabs in Lebanon and urges its withdrawal..."
17. ....condemned Israeli brutality in southern Lebanon and denounced the Israeli 'Iron Fist' policy of repression...."
18. ....denounced Israel's violation of human rights in the occupied territories..."
19. ....deplored Israel's violence in southern Lebanon..."
20. ....deplored Israel's activities in occupied Arab East Jerusalem that threatened the sanctity of Muslim holy sites..."
21. ....condemned Israel's hijacking of a Libyan passenger airplane..."
22. ....deplored Israel's attacks against Lebanon and its measures and practices against the civilian population of Lebanon..."
23. ....called on Israel to abandon its policies against the Palestinian intifada that violated the rights of occupied Palestinians, to abide by the Fourth Geneva Conventions, and to formalize a leading role for the United Nations in future peace negotiations..."
24. ....urged Israel to accept back deported Palestinians, condemned Israel's shooting of civilians, called on Israel to uphold the Fourth Geneva Convention, and called for a peace settlement under UN auspices..."
25. ....condemned Israel's... incursion into Lebanon..."
26. ....deplored Israel's... commando raids on Lebanon..."
27. ....deplored Israel's repression of the Palestinian intifada and called on Israel to respect the human rights of the Palestinians..."
28. ....deplored Israel's violation of the human rights of the Palestinians..."
29. ....demanded that Israel return property confiscated from Palestinians during a tax protest and allow a fact-finding mission to observe Israel's crackdown on the Palestinian intifada..."
30. ...called for a fact-finding mission on abuses against Palestinians in Israeli-occupied lands..."

(Edited by Victorcommie at 11:59 am on April 12, 2003)

[Zombie]

doesnt this thread ressembles the previous one you've made just 1-2 hours ago klondike?
http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...m=22&topic=2162 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=22&topic=2162)

[Blasphemy]

Quote: from Klondike on 6:11 am on April 12, 2003
My idea is that President Arafat uses the cheap and effective way of non-violence. It will work and the Israelis will eventually stop the oppression.


if only things were so simple...

[Silent Eye]

That is a foolish claim Klondike. The Israelis do not care. Look at that protestor who was protesting peacefully and run over by the Israeli army. They do not succumb to such non violent methods. The only way to deal with the israelis is the way the Palestinians are dealing with them. I have no sympathy for Israelis or Israel in general. They are the aggressors.

Of course, religious claims to land cannot be taken seriously, historic claims are the only ones who matter.

[Klondike]

I know that it seems that nonviolence cannot work, but I think that if the Palestineans just stop working for Israel it will force them(the Israelis) to have to work out some agreement where the Palestineans have they're own land. I think that if that happens it should be West Bank to Gaza, and stome strip of land that connects them. Then the US should pay the Palestineans double what they did the Israelis ($6 billion). And as a final step, the US should commit to defending Israel against anyone who still wants it destroyed-and vow to defend the new state of Palestine from its neighboring Arab regimes(they're going to be super pissed when they see that the Palestineans have they're own land for once)!

[Blasphemy]

Silent Eye, your approach is the one who brough the israelis and the palestinians to such a state of affairs. such contempt to human lives is nothing but revolting. how can you not care when innocent people die on buses? how can you not care when children are shot in the middle of the street? regardless of israel's actions, any kind of killing is disgusting and deserves nothing but condemnation and repudiation. the state of israel is the aggressor, not the israelis. not those who get killed, anyway. not the innocent people who seem to be at the bull's eye of the terrorists' guns.

the actions taken by the israeli government and the actions taken by palestinian armed groups and the palestinian authority are sinful. the responsibility for the killing of innocent people lies equally on shoulders of israelis and palestinians. because of people like sharon and arafat, who don't care at all for their people, we are on the brink of total war.

contempt towards human lives, like the one you have displayed, is sickening. i hope that you will one day open your eyes and see the sanctity of life.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

An answer to the problem I don not have, but it seems that both sides need to lessen the aggravation held for one another and begin to be more tolerant of each other. Class strugle knows no religion or ethnicity. The importance placed upon religion and nationality work against the unification of the worker and are enemies of the revolution.

Workers of World Unite!!

[Severian]

Quote: from Klondike on 4:11 am on April 12, 2003
ok, there's got to be a way to stop all this off and on fighting and, with Marx's ghost as my witness, I'm determined to find a way to bring the fighting to an end! My idea is that President Arafat uses the cheap and effective way of non-violence. It will work and the Israelis will eventually stop the oppression.


Nah. Nonviolence only works with people who are willing to be nonviolent with you. As long as a government allows some modicum of democratic rights, people should use them. But Israel recognizes no rights for people in the West Bank and Gaza Strip - they are not even citizens in the land of their birth. If they demonstrate, or even leave their houses during one of the Israeli army's 24-hour curfews, they are shot.

Pacifists frequently cite the Indian independence movement and the southern U.S. civil rights movements as examples of the success of nonviolence even in the face of violence. This is a simplistic reading of the history of these movements, though. Violence was involved to some degree in both - e.g. in the U.S. civil rights movement there were those who defended themselves from segregationist violence, and then finally there was a massive deployment of federal military force and violence to put a stop to segregationist force and violence.

[Severian]

Quote: from Victorcommie on 5:58 am on April 12, 2003
I completely agree! America indirectly and directly funnels loads of money to both sides,

I think it's quite misleading to say things like this. The U.S. sends about $3 billion a year to Israel, including a lot of weapons. It's about a third of the total U.S. foreign aid budget.

The U.S. has never sent weapons to Palestinian groups fighting against Israel, however. It sent some aid to Arafat's Palestinian Authority so he could get set up to police Palestinians and keep them in line on behalf of Israel, but that hardly qualifies as aid to the other side of the conflict and in any case the amount was negligible compared to $3 billion a year.

It's an important point as to what attitude people in the U.S. should take towards violence committed by the two sides: my taxes pay for bullets that kill Palestinian children, but they do not buy plastic explosives for Hamas.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Severian, I see what you're saying, Americans as well as the governmenmt are highly supportive of Israel over Palestine, but what you overlooked is that the US is the country that most funds the UN and the UN gives much aid to Palestine as does the American Red Cross. I suppose Israel is still getting the better end of the deal, though.