Being Communist and joining the military - Better to eat or

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I myself was considering joining the military, until this war started. Unforunately I have no qualifications and joining the military looks like the best chance for me out there.
I would like to pose this question to my comrades:
Is it better to sign up or starve? on one hand the military is a counterrevolutionary force, on the other it mostly consists of working class people.
I know there are a couple of hardcore marxists who are against any true lefty joining the forces. Just let me tell you that I respect your opinions even if I don't agree with them. Think about when you post that I don't love my country or the Queen, I just want to eat in the future.
Am I better off to the cause alive or dead?

(Edited by NoXion at 9:04 am on April 11, 2003)

[Dhul Fiqar]

#Moderation Mode

It strikes me that this thread stands a much better chance of getting responses if moved. I'm choosing "Theory" because I sort of think this is about whether a leftist can morally function within a capitalist army. (my answer: NO!, but that's another matter :biggrin:)

Perhaps "Politics" is better? I dunno, let me know if you're unhappy and I'll change it :)

--- G.

Moved here (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=13&topic=747)

[BRIN]

I myself am in the same position as you NOXION i wanted to join the australia army.Because your in a better possition closer to red factions i suggest you join the IRA i here good things from them and from then on you can go to columbia and train and fight for the the FARC theyre good friends with the IRA.Or you could join the new red brigade in europe and bomb polititions

[Blasphemy]

food is prior to ideology.

[El Che]

It`s up to you really. Just know that you`ll be under someone elses orders. You give up your free will become an instrument in the hands of someone else, one that can be used for "good" or for "evil". That is not something to be taken lightly.

I`m not saying don`t do it though. If you feel it`s the best thing for you right now then go for it. Hell, we need Communists in the Military as much as anywhere else. What you do for your beliefs and how you do it is up to you. Good luck.

[redstar2000]

This question has come up before...in two forms.

The first is when some guy says he's going to join the military and we try to talk him out of it.

The second is after he's in...and he writes to us asking us how to get out.

You could save us all a lot of grief by not joining in the first place.

The idea that it's ok to join the military (or be a scab--blackleg--or be a cop, etc.) in order "to eat" is, I'm afraid, completely absurd.

Granted that unemployment among the young is always high (perhaps kept so precisely to supply a continuing flow of young bodies into the military). Nevertheless, millions of young people manage to survive without becoming professional killers for imperialism.

And make no mistake about it, that's what you'll be.

Having no idea of your personal circumstances, NoXion, I cannot make any useful suggestions at this time...though I am certain it is possible for you to survive with selling yourself into the most degrading form of slavery.

Do not kid yourself that you will be of any "use" to us as a soldier...you will be part of the enemy. Your death will provoke indifference or joy in us, depending on the circumstances. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that you could find yourself shooting at unarmed civilians...including us.

What price are you willing to pay for that meal?

DON'T DO IT!

:cool:

http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...um=10&topic=259 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=10&topic=259)


(Edited by redstar2000 at 10:06 am on April 11, 2003)

[Dhul Fiqar]

Listen to redstar, kids, don't do it!

[man in the red suit]

I disagree with everyone here. I think that it is excellent that you are considering joining the military to serve your country. I for one would join the military however there are three things Keeping me from joining.

1.) I'm in terrible shape, I wouldn't pass boot camp
2.) I will be damned if I let anyone cut my extremely long hair.

I'm also kind of a ***** so I wouldn't make a great fighter. But enough about me btching out, I think that is very admirable and brave of you to join the military and serve your country. I admit you have me a little lost on the "join the military or starve" proposal but whatever. don't listen to these ridiculous claims about fighting for imperialism. If you were fighting for imperialism then to hell with it. but seeing as you are not, I think it would be great if you joined the service.

[hazard]

on paper I agree with redstar. especially when the question is coming from an american or a brit. but what about socialist countries like Canada and France? what are the exceptions, if there are any?

the idea behind starvation is a powerful one, as is the connection between the unemployment of youth and army recuitment. but the fact does remain that since capitalism forces peple to work to survive, being a soldier is just another form of work. as communists, we really do need people everywhere, including the military. for when the fires of revolution begin to burn, for they will, it is our brothers and sisters within the armed forces that will be needed to help switch their allegiance to their class and not their masters.

[Anarcho]

not that it's ever going to happen, but in the event of a collapse of central authority, there is going to be a need for trained and reliable soldiers for the cause.

If you join the IRA or FARC, all you'll be doing is helping druglords. Proletarian revolutionaries don't kill farmers for trying to clear cropland.

For every 5 people that say they will make a good soldier when the time comes, maybe 2 will. If you've gone through military training, and learned a valuable skill that will help you in the real world, then you know if you can do it or not.

And if you're given an order to fire at unarmed people, you refuse it. Either you'll be praised after the fact for followign the UCMJ or you'll be discharged.

As with all things, what you do with your time in the military is up to you. If you're mind is strong, you'll have no problems.

[redstar2000]

hazard, France and Canada are capitalist countries. France has imperial troops fighting in Africa right now. Canada participated in America's imperialist war in Afghanistan.

Perhaps a military career might be less odious in small, weak countries with little future as imperial powers...Denmark or New Zealand, perhaps.

But even then, the purpose of an army--to defend the power and wealth of a ruling class against external and internal enemies (us) still remains.

As does the old question: which side are you on?

Professional soldiering is not "just another job". It is killing for a living. Is that what you want to be...a killer? Does it really matter what you think about other things in life if that becomes the definition of you as a person?

We are not simply what we "think" we are...we are, in a more fundamental sense, what we do.

If we produce things, we are essentially workers. Soldiers do not produce anything but death...they are killers in the same sense as the staff at Auschwitz were killers. As long as you "carry out your orders", you will get your paycheck.

Anarcho's post is, as usual, rather bizarre and I confess I may not have understood him clearly.

Let's dispose of the idea that communists can enter the military and recruit more communists. Everyone you meet in the military is someone who most likely wanted to be there...who buys into the "ethic" of the professional soldier. Why should such people give a rat's ass about communism? Or anything else except skillful killing while avoiding being killed? And getting paid!

So where, then, do communists with a military background come from? In revolutionary periods, professional soldiers begin to concern themselves with political matters from the point of view of their class interests. To be crude about it, who is going to be signing their paychecks?

They will stay with the old regime--some of the officers may even attempt a coup to strengthen the old regime--for a while. When it becomes clear that popular revulsion for the old regime is overwhelming, they will switch sides without missing a beat. Mercenaries do not care about ideas; they care about getting paid.

Conscripted armies are a different matter; an army of draftees that is losing is indeed ripe for revolutionary ideas and will seek them out on their own. An example of this in the U.S. was the Vietnam Veterans Against the War...organized not by communists but by veterans who went to the anti-war movement eager to learn the real reasons behind their misery.

When mercenary armies in the western world appeal to the young, they often promise to teach you a "skill" that will help you in the "real world" (civilian life). Unfortunately, there are few jobs for "tank repair specialist" in the civilian market...the vast majority of military specialties are useless in civilian life.

Except for one: the mindlessly obedient use of violence against the weak. Police departments, prisons, and security firms are constantly seeking military veterans to do exactly what they did in the military...kill on command. Late capitalism requires an ever larger group of people trained in the ability to intimidate, injure, and kill an ever more sullen and uncooperative populace.

Being a mercenary for the ruling class is, indeed, not just a job...it's a career. :o

"As with all things, what you do in the military is up to you." No, it isn't. What you do in the military is up to your commanding officer. It does not matter if "your mind is strong"--soldiers don't have minds in the sense that civilians do. Soldiers obey orders.

For anyone to voluntarily put themselves in this position is either stupid or criminal or both.

I repeat: DON'T DO IT!

:cool:

[man in the red suit]

I may disagree with you completely on your statements regarding the military but the least you can do is have some fucking respect for the people who fight for the freedoms you enjoy here today. Military personel are not hired mercenaries. Many occupations in the military do not even involve combat. If they do in fact, involve combat, then it is for a good cause. they are not hired to kill innocent civilians like the prison guards at Auschwitz and if a few innocents are killed, too bad, it's the price that must be payed to protect the freedom and liberty of others. Again, nobody is making you join the military but have a little fucking respect. It's much harder to go and risk your life for you country than it is to sit and ***** about how the military is the capitalist exploiting oppressor tool of the bourgeoisie, trying to protect the imperialist interests of capitalist states of doom! It gets real old real fast.

[redstar2000]

"I think it is very admirable and brave of you to join the military and serve your country." -- man in the red suit

When I read this in your earlier post, I thought you were being sarcastic...or drunk!

"...the least you can do is have some fucking respect for the people who fight for the freedoms you enjoy here today." -- man in the red suit

But I was wrong, wasn't I? You really believe that fucking militaristic bullshit, don't you?

If there's anyone I have less respect for than a mercenary, it's someone stupid enough to believe capitalist rhetoric about "freedom" and the "need" to sacrifice innocent lives to gain it and hold on to it.

You know what really "gets old", man in the red suit? It's pro-capitalist assholes who don't stay in Opposing Ideologies where they belong!

Back to your cage, Troll!

:cool:

[hazard]

redstar:

I'd like to stress that I agree with just about everything you say. But I think that you purposefully overlooking a number of key factors.

1) it is a known fact that unemployment is higher in younger age groups. u and me both agree that military recruitment is partially to blame. however, what option do the youth possess? its easy for some of us "educated" types to see alternatives, but the grunts neither see or understand the truth. additionally, as a career as a "pro killer", the essential requirements for living are met. food and shelter are provided, and luxuries are also paid for. I don't think that the individual soldiers can be held responsible for wanting to live, especially when their exploitive productive systems literally force them into such careers.

2) revolutions rely upon the transition of mercenary armies into armies of the working class. now, I don't mean mercenary armies in the same way u mean them. to me, any paid army is a mercenary one. having communists in the military is necessary for the event of a revolution so as to switch the allegiances of the armed forces to the correct side. u may have the belief that the military gains complete control of a soldiers mind and spirit, but it can't be that bad. every revolution in history has relied upon armed forces to bolster the ranks of the revolting classess. what would have happened if Napoleon had sided with the crowd he gave "a whiff of grape shot" to? it is quite possible that the whole world would be communist as we speak. even furthur, the idea of military life is itself very social and communist in nature. I actually can't think of a better model within a capitalist regime for communal living.

3) not all capitalist nations are as a capitalist as u might think. for instance, Canada does not have a free market economy. we have what is known as a MODIFIED FREE ENTERPRIZE system. that means that the government is allowed to purchase land and industry for the public. many european countries also have this system. serving the military in countries such as this, as far as I'm concerned, would be defending the social principles that they stand for. of course, in any brutally capitalist nation like the US that actively attempts to force non-capitalist nations into their mode of production, I understand totally what you are saying. and I agree.

(Edited by hazard at 2:38 pm on April 13, 2003)

[man in the red suit]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 1:44 am on April 13, 2003
"I think it is very admirable and brave of you to join the military and serve your country." -- man in the red suit

When I read this in your earlier post, I thought you were being sarcastic...or drunk!

"...the least you can do is have some fucking respect for the people who fight for the freedoms you enjoy here today." -- man in the red suit

But I was wrong, wasn't I? You really believe that fucking militaristic bullshit, don't you?

If there's anyone I have less respect for than a mercenary, it's someone stupid enough to believe capitalist rhetoric about "freedom" and the "need" to sacrifice innocent lives to gain it and hold on to it.

You know what really "gets old", man in the red suit? It's pro-capitalist assholes who don't stay in Opposing Ideologies where they belong!

Back to your cage, Troll!

:cool:


first off, I never post when I am drunk. I am sarcastic a LOT but not this time. I am not pro capitalist however I think there is nothing wrong with joining the military. I have no more respect for mercenaries than the next person but military personel are not mercenaries. This is not capitalist rhetoric or propoganda. If you think that the military is just another tool for American imperialism then you have proved my theory that you use leftist extremist hogwash to think rather than your brain or even your heart. I can't deny that there are always a few rotten apples who give the military a bad name however I think it is sick that there are soldiers fighting in Iraq while you turn the other cheek like a coward and dismiss it as capitalist boureoisie Doom terrror.

[redstar2000]

"I don't think that the individual soldiers can be held responsible for wanting to live..."

I agree with you, hazard, that you can't hold someone responsible for acting out of ignorance of possible alternatives.

But we are in the 21st century now. The televisions are alive with footage of what it means to be a soldier. I don't think there are too many people who can legitimately claim ignorance. Some, yes, but not many.

I also agree that the desire to survive is extremely strong...and we may find ourselves doing some pretty unsavory things to put food on the table and pay the rent (much corporate employment falls into this category).

But are you willing to kill other people in order to survive? And not just any other people, but people like yourself who, being civilians, are helpless in the face of your weaponry and training.

It seems to me that, at some point, you draw a line in the sand and say...I will beg on the streets before I will do that. Being a professional killer for imperialism is a good place to draw that line.

As to revolutionary considerations, my reading of history is different than yours. It seems to me that the record shows little effectiveness of communists in the military...even among conscripted soldiers until the old regime is tottering. At that point, the army of the old regime simply melts away or comes over to the side of the revolution in whole chunks...often led by their commanding officers. There may be a few scattered instances of communists effectively organizing inside the old regime's military...but I know of no cases where it made any substantive difference.

Finally, I think the distinction that you draw between "brutal" and "less brutal" capitalist countries is not relevant to the central question in this thread.

I agree that if one must be a wage-slave, it is certainly better to be one in Canada or the EU or New Zealand than in England or the United States...much less China or Indonesia.

But the armies of all those countries have a purpose that is outside the realm of imperialism altogether. They are the final line of defence of the old ruling class...to be used against the people if the people rebel.

That works when the rebellion is localized and limited. In the case of the kind of massive uprisings that would justify the term communist revolution, the military becomes initially "unreliable"...and then useless.

Thus, an army can be used to smash an industry-wide strike (or intimidate the workers into a settlement). It can even be used to crush a city-wide uprising. In a national uprising, the army knows there's not much it can do...so it does little and then does nothing at all.

And this is how they act whether there are communists in the army or not.

So when you join a capitalist army, this is what you can expect. To murder or to help others murder in defense of the wealth and power of "your" ruling class. Or, if you are "lucky", it is only the preparations for such murder that will involve you personally...you will be "out" before the killing starts.

Instead, maybe you'll be a cop clubbing anti-war protesters or strikers in the streets of...wherever.

:cool:

[hazard]

I'm glad we can reach middle ground redstar.

naturally, it is only during the collapse of an old regime that the allegiance of the soldiers come into play. that is mostly what I was referring to implicitly. in the days leading to such a collapse, I think the effectiveness of an army used for repression can directly influence that collapse. if communists are in the military during such times, the collapse can be fascilitated more quickly and thoroughly, as far as I am concerned.

[Anarcho]

Just wanted to point out that in the rural areas of the US, the guys that are usually fighting forest fires and helping save people during floods, some of the first ones on the scene after a tornado, hurricane, or earthquake, are the National Guard.

Anyone that thinks that the military, and specifically the National Guards are mindless killing machines has read far to much propaganda. Yes, they are soldiers, and yes their job, if called to do it, are to fight the enemies. The vow taken is to fight the enemies of the State, both foreign and domestic.

But Communists and Socialists, despite the martyrs to the Cause, are not internal enemies to the State. They are just another political party, as far as the state is concerned.

Tank mechanics usualy make fine Diesel engine mechanics.

[Invader Zim]

REDSTAR2000 you are fool who has no idea what you are talking about. Period as Amercans say.

Your 1 and only argument is that in the Military you may have to kill someone. However you are for a violant and bloody revolution, so how does it differ killing some one in a revolution than in the armed services.

Well have you ever heard of technitions, cleaners, chefs, air traffic controlers, search and resucue teams, stors operatives, computer specialists, map makers, metiorologists, mechanics, housing agents, clarks, fuel loaders, aircrew loadeers, drill instructors, run way sweepers, weapon analysers, dock superviers, base commanders.

These are just a few of hundereds of job opertunitys in the military which dont invole any form of combat, and therefor involve no form of killing, so that blows your entire argument out the water.

You are clearly talking out your arse, and know nothing about what you are talking about, you are also hypocritical.

Finished ranting
AK47

[chamo]

Well have you ever heard of technitions, cleaners, chefs, air traffic controlers, search and resucue teams, stors operatives, computer specialists, map makers, metiorologists, mechanics, housing agents, clarks, fuel loaders, aircrew loadeers, drill instructors, run way sweepers, weapon analysers, dock superviers, base commanders.

There is no difference whether you are working behind the scenes or have a rifle in your hand, you are still responsible for the conflict and deaths and you are still a military tool for imperialist and capitalist nations. All jobs help the military run and kill.

[redstar2000]

Anarcho, your remarks on the U.S. National Guard rather miss the point and, in fact, reinforce my point. They are the first units to be deployed in the event of "civil unrest"...rebellion.

In addition, when they are deployed following floods, earthquakes, etc., what are they deployed for? To protect property...usually corporate property from "looters".

In the case of forest fires, the U.S. National Park System has its own fire-fighting division, if I'm not mistaken...and hires thousands of temporary workers (at a pathetic wage) every fire season. It is quite rare for National Guardsmen to be involved in fighting forest fires. That's not their real job.

If you believe that tank repair skills are "transferable" to truck maintenance, fine. I won't argue that point. It's better for the ex-soldier to repair trucks than to become a cop.

AK47, who has already "distinguished" himself on this board for his spineless servility to U.S.-British imperialism in Iraq, is naturally to be found defending the military establishment.

His "defense" is one that emphasizes the "non-combatant" roles of military personnel...I believe the ratio is about 10 to 1; behind every soldier in the field there are 10 "support personnel" needed.

The railroad crews on the Auschwitz run didn't kill anyone either. But the holocaust couldn't have happened without them. :o

:cool:

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from happyguy on 1:39 pm on April 13, 2003

Well have you ever heard of technitions, cleaners, chefs, air traffic controlers, search and resucue teams, stors operatives, computer specialists, map makers, metiorologists, mechanics, housing agents, clarks, fuel loaders, aircrew loadeers, drill instructors, run way sweepers, weapon analysers, dock superviers, base commanders.

There is no difference whether you are working behind the scenes or have a rifle in your hand, you are still responsible for the conflict and deaths and you are still a military tool for imperialist and capitalist nations. All jobs help the military run and kill.


Yes but you being on the internet posting on this forum helps just as much, you either pay line rental or monthley fees... what ever it makes no differance. Either way a preportion of that goes to the military in taxes.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 2:41 pm on April 13, 2003


AK47, who has already "distinguished" himself on this board for his spineless servility to U.S.-British imperialism in Iraq, is naturally to be found defending the military establishment.

His "defense" is one that emphasizes the "non-combatant" roles of military personnel...I believe the ratio is about 10 to 1; behind every soldier in the field there are 10 "support personnel" needed.

The railroad crews on the Auschwitz run didn't kill anyone either. But the holocaust couldn't have happened without them. :o

:cool:


AK47, who has already "distinguished" himself on this board for his spineless servility to U.S.-British imperialism in Iraq, is naturally to be found defending the military establishment.

Your reoccuring argument, the pittiful attack you always fall back on, your pathetic arguments are painful to behold.

However i would rather be a "servile lacky of US imperialism" Than a "SERVILE LACKY OF BA'ATH PARTY FACISM".


His "defense" is one that emphasizes the "non-combatant" roles of military personnel...I believe the ratio is about 10 to 1; behind every soldier in the field there are 10 "support personnel" needed.

It is not a defence it is an attack on shitty arguments that are poorly thought out, and incompetantly presented. As you will note i see no responce to it. Other than a shitty piece of irelavant fact about the holacaust. In answer to that pathetic repost, you will not that without the denial of the entire German people (other than a few individuals, such as Shindler) the holacaust also would not have happened, that does not mean that i condem every German person in Germany as a cold blooded tool of German Facist imerialism. You Moron.

[apathy maybe]

Join the army and see the world. (sung to the tune of.)
If you are a committed revolutionary you can join the army learn skills (like how to kill people with a wide variety of weapons) and perhapes even put some of those weapons in caches around the place to support the revolution. So long as you don't stay in to long or start believing the propaganda.

PS I am a pasifest who is against killing in any circumstances. (except one which shall not be mentioned now or later.)

[chamo]

There is a difference between killing in the army and killing as a revolutionary.

In the military you kill for your government, your nation and you carry out your orders unquestionably, whether you like it or not.
The other reason is killing for money, an entirely deplorable act and one that can be said is what drives most people in the army to do, and the driving force of this "cash for death" system is of course the government.

If you take up arms as a revolutionary, not only are you doing it voluntarily, you are doing it for your own free beliefs, and you are not committing acts of murder in the name of an imperialist and capitalist government, and you are not under any pressure to shoot. Alsom revolutionary armies would tend to be small in size and weaponary, and would not be able to carry out acts of indiscriminate and mass killings.

However, if you believe it is completley immoral to kill a human being for any reason, then you should not really be doing either.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from happyguy on 7:26 pm on April 14, 2003
There is a difference between killing in the army and killing as a revolutionary.

In the military you kill for your government, your nation and you carry out your orders unquestionably, whether you like it or not.
The other reason is killing for money, an entirely deplorable act and one that can be said is what drives most people in the army to do, and the driving force of this "cash for death" system is of course the government.

If you take up arms as a revolutionary, not only are you doing it voluntarily, you are doing it for your own free beliefs, and you are not committing acts of murder in the name of an imperialist and capitalist government, and you are not under any pressure to shoot. Alsom revolutionary armies would tend to be small in size and weaponary, and would not be able to carry out acts of indiscriminate and mass killings.

However, if you believe it is completley immoral to kill a human being for any reason, then you should not really be doing either.

Yes i see your point and its a very good one. Didnt really think of it from that angle.

So Capitalist army = Hired Killer
Revolutionary freedom fighter = Patriotic killer.

[chamo]

It's no secret that you are a killer, if that's what you're saying.

[Invader Zim]

So its not immoral to kill a person if its part of the revolution.

Well i always it was immoral to kill someone full stop.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Quote: from BRIN on 12:05 pm on April 11, 2003
I myself am in the same position as you NOXION i wanted to join the australia army.Because your in a better possition closer to red factions i suggest you join the IRA i here good things from them and from then on you can go to columbia and train and fight for the the FARC theyre good friends with the IRA.Or you could join the new red brigade in europe and bomb polititions


Noxion, you live in the country with the best trained military. Use it!

Join the army, complete your training, do some extra's and then "disapear" into the places were lefties are fighting.

Why would u starve to death if better chances are lying ahead.

I am myself not in such a bad position(as a 16 year old :D), but I am the above situation.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Quote: from AK47 on 1:23 pm on April 13, 2003
REDSTAR2000 you are fool who has no idea what you are talking about. Period as Amercans say.

Your 1 and only argument is that in the Military you may have to kill someone. However you are for a violant and bloody revolution, so how does it differ killing some one in a revolution than in the armed services.

Well have you ever heard of technitions, cleaners, chefs, air traffic controlers, search and resucue teams, stors operatives, computer specialists, map makers, metiorologists, mechanics, housing agents, clarks, fuel loaders, aircrew loadeers, drill instructors, run way sweepers, weapon analysers, dock superviers, base commanders.

These are just a few of hundereds of job opertunitys in the military which dont invole any form of combat, and therefor involve no form of killing, so that blows your entire argument out the water.

You are clearly talking out your arse, and know nothing about what you are talking about, you are also hypocritical.

Finished ranting
AK47


Ofcourse you do have to finish basictraining first, in which your trained to have no problems with killing someone and then you're beeing armed with a lr-300 or a M4.

And something that hasn't anything to do with AK's post, but when we will have the majority of the people and the elite refuses to give away power, we do need to have skilled people and not lotsa "good commies" who refuse every job, because it's captalistic.

When the day of the revolution comes, you do need to fight, after the revolution you do need to organise and control a smoothwalking economy to provide u of ur basic needs.

And that's pretty hard if nobody has no experience except in protesting.

Although my opinion.

[apathy maybe]

CCCP is right, when ever people finally see the light of day we will need people to do the jobs.

And also if you think that killing is not immoral get trained then 'disapear' but if you do join make sure you don't get 'indocterinated' keep the faith.

[redstar2000]

The problem of "skill scarcity" in post-revolutionary society was quite pressing in places like Russia and China...because the total number of skilled workers was so small.

Following a revolution in an advanced capitalist society, many or most communists will indeed have many skills to draw upon. No one is saying that it's a betrayal of communism to work for a living.

What we're talking about in this thread is becoming part of the apparatus of repression.

In my view, that is treason to the working class.

:cool:

[Anarcho]

redstar- In rural places like Montana, Wyoming, etc. it is quite common for the national guard to be called on when the scope of fires gets to be to large.

Also, skilled firefighters are paid quite well. I'm not sure where you're getting this idea of "temp" firefighters. I've never seen it, nor heard of it. The closest I've seen would be smokejumpers, who jump out of planes with firefighting equipement into inaccesable areas to fight fires. Most of them only work a few months out of the year. They are also paid exceedingly high wages, and more power to them.

As for the military.

I'm not sure where you get this idea of the military being a mindless machine. It may have been that in the past, but it isn't any longer. In fact, the vast majority of the US Military is composed of non-combat roles.

As for "unquestioningly obeying" there are many cases wherein soldiers have disobeyed orders that they construed to be morally wrong, or illegal. They do not get prosecuted for doing that.... it's one fo the hallmark of the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

It's obvious you are anti-military, but I question your reasoning. I feel you equate the soldier, usually a member of the proletariat before joining (voluntarily) and the government that the military in part serves.

Why, if I may ask, do you feel so strongly about this.

[chamo]

Quote: from AK47 on 6:05 pm on April 15, 2003
So its not immoral to kill a person if its part of the revolution.

Well i always it was immoral to kill someone full stop.


I said quite the opposite of that. In my view killing people is always immoral. I never tried to justify killing.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Quote: from apathy maybe on 1:26 am on April 16, 2003
CCCP is right, when ever people finally see the light of day we will need people to do the jobs.

And also if you think that killing is not immoral get trained then 'disapear' but if you do join make sure you don't get 'indocterinated' keep the faith.


I think I do know a little more about politics then some drill sergeant.

[Invader Zim]

OK a hypothetical situation for anyone who thinks that people should not join the capitalist military.

A commi goes down to his local airport and applies for a job to join air traffic control because thats his ideal job despite his socialist beliefs. They say to him yep you can join however we would like you to be more experianced first and get some basic training in what it tales to be an air traffic controler. We suggest you join the military for a few years and be an air traffic controler their ten come back to us. The guy goes off and does what they say.

Of course that would never happen, but would it be immoral for that individual to join the military because to do a certain job in the civillian world they demand/require military service or training.

[chamo]

Although it is an unfortunate position for the comrade to be in I would say that he (or I if I was in the same position) should avoid it as it does entail military service. If he went ahead I would have much to question about his leftist ideals.

[redstar2000]

"Why do you feel so strongly about this?"

Because of what they do, Anarcho. It is dishonest of you to harp on the non-combat or support roles of military personnel, since the purpose of that support is to facilitate murder in the interests of the capitalist class.

The tiny handful of soldiers who refuse to carry out their orders have no effect on the functioning of the machine. They are simply "defective parts" that must be and are quickly replaced.

The fact the the professional military can function at all demonstrates that mindless obedience is the norm. Wide-spread refusal of orders is a sign that the soldiers have reclaimed their humanity; as long as they obey, they are indeed robots, mindless killing machines.

Of course, they don't "like" being characterized in this fashion; they frequently piss and moan about "fucking civilians who don't understand combat", etc. And then, if ordered, they go out and kill some more.

That's the average. The worst is an outright fascist mentality. Those who are most likely to make up the violent portion of fascist and semi-fascist political groups are veterans of military service. They like a political system of order-givers and order-takers. That's where they feel truly comfortable and most at home.

The military/police have, at their core, a fascist mentality, wherein obedience to authority is the highest human virtue.

It is the polar opposite of libertarian communism.

:cool:

[praxis1966]

While I concede that Comrade Redstar has some valid points, I will say this:

Using myself as the analogy, take them for everything they're worth. My plan is to manipulate the system from the inside.

You see, I am a computer network specialist who will ultimately end up working for some private sector multi-national corporation. The reason being is that the corporate world is the only place for me to make a good enough living to feed a family. The difference between myself and all of the other corporate tools out there is that I fully intend on taking whatever disposable income I make and turning against the oppressor. Biting the hand that feeds me, so to speak.

What you need to do, if in fact you are unfortunate enough to be so lacking in options that you are forced to "join up," I suggest you request duty in some field of information technology. This way, when you get out (if not while you are in) of the military, you can aid the revolution as much as possible. After all, I think we all would agree that whoever controls the flow of information will rule all.

Finally, there's my buddy who used to be in the Marine Corps. At one point he was stationed in San Diego. He was so influenced by some leftists out there (he was already a left-sympathizer) that when it came time for him to be shipped out to Gulf War I, he had his buddy run over his foot with a Volkswagen. He then had the bones reset by a civilian doctor, which led to (get this) an honorable discharge.

(Edited by praxis1966 at 12:36 pm on April 17, 2003)

[Sensitive]

Don't join the enemy.

[redstar2000]

Join the imperial mercenaries and have this on your conscience:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/health/2955829.stm

And for what? Basically, so some super-rich sons-of-*****es can get richer.

Don't do it!

:cool:

[BRIN]

Anyone recomend a armed revolutionary group which accepts foreiners.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I've read all your arguments and they're very good.
Firstly I have no qualifications. zip.
by joining I can gain NVQs (which are recognised by civilian employers, so don't tell me they aren't useful)
Secondly, like CCCP said, it's the best army in the world. In fact my stepdad knew a couple of soldiers who after leaving the British army joined the American army, where they were immediately made officers. Why? because even a british soldier is better than an american officer. Wouldn't it be better to train, gain NVQs, serve my 4 years minimum and then disappear like CCCP said? Also most of the atrocities committed in Iraq that I've heard of were committed by american soldiers, why haven't I heard similar reports of British soldiers? Redstar2000, you mentioned that soldier who didn't commit atrocities were 'defective parts' and had no effect on the army's abaility to function. Wouldn't be better for me to have NO effect than to have a ENHANCING effect?
BTW Redstar2000, I've noticed your quite firm in your beliefs(Read: hardcore) just don't get into fights with the milder commies on this board because of me!
However if you can suggest a good alternative I'd be open to it.

To BRIN: I would never join the IRA because of their association with druglords. (it is better to grow your own than to get their stuff which is hugely overpriced and cut with all sorts of nasty shit.)

PS I seemed to have disturbed a hornet's nest. Oh well.

(Edited by NoXion at 9:39 am on April 18, 2003)

[Sabocat]

I don't understand why no one seems to grasp the idea that joining the military is just wrong. The military is the tool of corporations and political agendas.

Support for an imperialist army or military in any fashion is lunacy. Sooner or later, these forces will be turned on a peoples revolution or uprising. Try disobeying an order to shoot out of conscience. See if you don't end up in a military court. See if they don't put you away for desertion. Good luck.

I'm sick of hearing the "I'll most likely be in the support role". That's really the point isn't it. Support. If you support it in anyway, it's no different than pulling the trigger. You can't hide behind that cloak.

What if your division is sent to Cuba as a "coalition force" to liberate the opressed peoples of Cuba. What if they ask you to shoot to kill someone you know is fighting for their sovereignty? What does that make you.

If you want to know if it's right to join the military, be true to your conscience and when you go to sign up, tell them that you're a socialist or communist or anarchist and see what they tell you. If you don't offer that information to them, then you're just a keyboard socialist / communist/anarchist with no conviction anyway.

I'd hunt and beg for my food before I would join the military "to eat".

Good luck with you're decision.

[redstar2000]

There's a rather obvious contradiction in your "game plan", NoXion.

On the one hand, you plan to spend the next four years of your life in the military, gaining these mysterious "NVQs".

On the other hand, you plan to be a "defective part"...to deliberately disobey the orders of your commanding officer...which puts an immediate halt to your first strategy.

It's always possible that you will gain a duty spot that is "harmless"...guarding the British Consulate in Yakturd, Mongolia, for example.

But, most likely, you will be trained for some assignment that has a direct or indirect effect on the purpose of the military machine. It seems to me that this makes the decision of "where to draw the line" (when to disobey) extraordinarily difficult.

And the military really is "not just another job." You can't just walk away when you feel like it. What may happen to you is impossible to predict...a quiet discharge, years in a military prison, even the death penalty; all depending on how seriously the military views your defection. It could get pretty ugly!

The assertion that the British Army is "the best army in the world" is just nationalist window-dressing...it has no relevance to this discussion. We're not discussing which professional sports team to sign with.

Naturally, most of the publicized atrocities in Iraq have been committed by U.S. forces; they are the vast majority of the troops there.

But do not think for a minute that "we Brits" don't do that sort of thing. The record of British occupation in Northern Ireland is, as you know, a parade of atrocities. If British troops take part in permanent occupation duty in Iraq, the stories will come out soon enough. If you join up now, you may even get a chance to see some.

Sound like fun?

:cool:

PS: To the extent that I have disagreements with my "soft-core" comrades, the events of the day provide more than sufficient cause. They're not based on any individual's post.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 3:23 pm on April 18, 2003

But, most likely, you will be trained for some assignment that has a direct or indirect effect on the purpose of the military machine. It seems to me that this makes the decision of "where to draw the line" (when to disobey) extraordinarily difficult.

And the military really is "not just another job." You can't just walk away when you feel like it. What may happen to you is impossible to predict...a quiet discharge, years in a military prison, even the death penalty; all depending on how seriously the military views your defection. It could get pretty ugly!

[/b]


:cool:



It's always possible that you will gain a duty spot that is "harmless"...guarding the British Consulate in Yakturd, Mongolia, for example.

Actually most likley being posted to somewhere like RAF Holtan, to look after the Gliders. Or some place in scotland protecting a weather station. Or if your really lucky Cyprus protecting the peace. Or other such horrible jobs.

And the military really is "not just another job." You can't just walk away when you feel like it.

Actually you can. Well at least in the British armed forces. Unless you are like in the middle of a war. In the RAF you can quit after 14 months. But they let you out earlier if you really are not happy.

a quiet discharge

Most likely,

years in a military prison,

Unless he plans to start stealing stuff or killing people, unlikely. If you do a runner Nixion then you probably would get jailed... but then they would let you go.

even the death penalty;

You fool the death penalty has been removed comletely in Britain. (with the following exception, Killing a member of the royal family.)

But do not think for a minute that "we Brits" don't do that sort of thing. The record of British occupation in Northern Ireland is, as you know, a parade of atrocities. If British troops take part in permanent occupation duty in Iraq, the stories will come out soon enough. If you join up now, you may even get a chance to see some.

I assume you are refering to the bloody Sunday massacre. I feal very sorry for the people involved in that unprovoked attack on a peaseful croud.

However i also feal sorry for the substaily more dead 17 year old squaddys and countless civillians killed by the IRA over the years. Its funny but they are never publisised by the media like the victims of bloody sunday are.

Join the imperial mercenaries and have this on your conscience:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/health/2955829.stm

And for what? Basically, so some super-rich sons-of-*****es can get richer.

Don't do it!


Yes you may have that on you consience. You may have this on your consience, seeing the crowds of liberated civillians freed from ethnic clensing and military dictatorship cheering you on.

http://www.bundesregierung.de/Bild/einzelsicht_257051/Deutsche-Panzer-beim-KFOR-Einsatz-im-Kosovo.jpg

Picture of german tanks being celebrated as they join the peace keeping force in Kosovo.

That is one thing you fail to realise RS2000. You think that every little thing the military does is bad. When it is not.

[redstar2000]

That was a touching photo, AK47.

Funny thing, the last time German tanks rolled into Kosovo, they got an equally enthusiastic reception...despite the swastikas.

Those Albanians sure hate those fucking Serbs!

As to the warm reception the Washington-London-Canberra Axis is getting in Baghdad, try this...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2959015.stm

"You think every little thing the military does is bad. When it is not."

Well, you have me there, AK47. I do recall reading that Oliver Cromwell's "New Model Army" cut off the head of King Charles I...and I must concede that it was truly a noble and inspiring deed. But that was a long time ago.

What have you done for me lately?

:cool:

[angry]

come to me i´ll give you food as long as i can..;)

well, to be serious, this idea has crossed my mind to, i am interested in airplanes, jets, military jets ect. ect., we dont have an army here, but in swedn there is, they are not a part of NATO, they haven´t been to war in a couple of hundred years..so this seemes to be okey, + that they have quite a leftist government, but i would never even let it cross my mind to join the UK army..seriously, you wont starve if you don´t join the army, you´ll get a job..

[BRIN]

staving to death in the UK?! Last i heard you still had the dole(social security) so how do you stave when the goverment pays you money if you don't have a job?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I don't want to live off benefits it's as simple as that.

[redstar2000]

"I don't want to live off benefits, it's as simple as that." --NoXion

So, let me get this straight. You're willing to "take the Queen's pence" to murder (directly or indirectly) for the British ruling class...but you won't take the money to sit on your arse.

You're willing to starve rather than go on the "dole" but your excuse for becoming a professional killer is that it's "better than starvation".

I'm afraid you've completely lost me. :confused:

:cool:

[Conghaileach]

from NoXion:
To BRIN: I would never join the IRA because of their association with druglords. (it is better to grow your own than to get their stuff which is hugely overpriced and cut with all sorts of nasty shit.)

Funny, I could say the same thing about the British government, but you don't seem to have any problem working for them.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 2:51 pm on April 19, 2003
"I don't want to live off benefits, it's as simple as that." --NoXion

So, let me get this straight. You're willing to "take the Queen's pence" to murder (directly or indirectly) for the British ruling class...but you won't take the money to sit on your arse.

You're willing to starve rather than go on the "dole" but your excuse for becoming a professional killer is that it's "better than starvation".

I'm afraid you've completely lost me. :confused:

:cool:


The term is the Kings shilling (in this case the Queens shilling.)

Well, you have me there, AK47. I do recall reading that Oliver Cromwell's "New Model Army" cut off the head of King Charles I...and I must concede that it was truly a noble and inspiring deed. But that was a long time ago.

LOL, You crack me up man you really do.

Funny thing, the last time German tanks rolled into Kosovo, they got an equally enthusiastic reception...despite the swastikas.

I rather like that comment you made about Oliver Cromwell, so i will use it now, refering to that comment you made about the Nazi invasion of whats now former yugoslavia, "that was a long time ago". Dont you just love irony.

As to the warm reception the Washington-London-Canberra Axis is getting in Baghdad, try this...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2959015.stm

I would be out on the streets protesting as well, in there position. However you are assuming that they are protesting aboutthe fact they got invaded. They are infact protesting that the "occupying armys" (as good a definition as any, i must conceed) about the fact that the USA and British forces have not set up any kind of Infastructure, to support the local population. That inastructure includes, water, an effective government, food supplys, a police force that kind of goes against your belief. Does it shock you to see members of the prolatarian wanting a police force? But most importantly and they after liberation, and quite rightly, want to govern there own country.

As it happens the Times news paper rather nicley summs up this whole episode: -
Iraqis celebrate end of Saddam's rule

Iraqi political parties have staged a march and rally to celebrate the overthrow of Saddam Hussein's regime - and to demand the right to determine their own political future in the country. Dr Zuhair Al-Naher from the Iraqi opposition group Islamic Dawa Party, who addressed the 200 people at the rally, said: "It's been a good day. It was well mannered and I think we managed to get our main points across so I am very pleased."Dr Al-Naher told the crowds that immediate medical aid work should begin in Iraq and that reconstruction should be a priority, in addition to law and order.


source (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/TGD/tgdBreakingNewsDisplay/0,,2,00.html#1)

What this has to do with joining the military i do not know, but it is the kind of evasions i have come to expect from the likes of Chiak.

(Edited by AK47 at 9:58 pm on April 19, 2003)

[NeedForRevolution]

We need some people who know how to fight!!!
A Revolution can't work with civilians and you all know that.............
I will myself join the army, but first only Military service not as a real job..........
i thought about realy joining the army but i want to achieve some thing in politics first if that doesnt work I will search for people who start the revolution with me and we need fighters..............
Its YOUR decision i dont want to force you to any side.....
dont know how it is in your countrys but in germany its quite easy to quit the army

[redstar2000]

"We need some people who know how to fight!!! A revolution can't work with civilians and you all know that..." --NeedForRevolution

I'm sorry, NFR, but that happens to be the only way it will work.

If your strategy is one of urban guerilla warfare, I can only advise you to forget it. There may be a few skirmishes in the last weeks (or hours) of the old regime, but that's all I expect to see.

Any protracted armed struggle between civilians and a fully-equipped modern army would be disasterous. It wouldn't make any difference at all even if the civilians had professional military advice from some trained combat specialists...the civilians are too "out-gunned" to do anything but surrender.

Understand, I'm speaking of an advanced capitalist country here. If you want to fight in a guerilla war in some backward country, that is a different matter.

But it also raises another question.

What exactly do you expect to learn in the military that you can't learn outside the military?

There are tons of books on "the art of war" and many on-line "simulations" of battle techniques. Military strategy, as a general once revealed, is mostly common sense.

Even the details of modern combat are, I suspect, available on the internet if you're willing to do some digging. I have no idea how to use or care for an AK47...but I'll bet there are sites I could learn that if I thought it would be useful.

Thus my advice to you is the same as it is to all lefties who romanticize the military or think there is something useful there...

DON'T DO IT!

:cool:

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Redstar, I suppose I haven't been Left long enough to realise what a bad idea joining the forces is, and also I suppose you could blame my upbringing... I suppose I was taught 'by proxy' that joining an army of 'baby-killers' (Damn it's painful to have your illusions smashed :( ) is more honourable than living off the back of the government.
Damn I think I will have to talk to my mum about this... I don't think she will be too pleased.
CiarainB, if you would care to direct me to some sources about British army association with druglords I would be satisfied.

[redstar2000]

NoXion, I am delighted to hear your response!

Now, here's another lesson about being a leftie. It is sad but true that, sometimes, when a slave begins to stop being a slave, the people who resent that the most...are other slaves. (!)

It's almost as if they were saying: "how dare you refuse to accept what we have always accepted?"

Be prepared to catch that kind of flak and don't let it bother you...when you become a leftie--a revolutionary--you have, in their eyes, invalidated their lives.

It's not necessary to fight with them; just make it clear that this is the road you've chosen to travel...and there's nothing they can say that's going to change that.

Good luck to you!!

:cool:

[Sabocat]

Quote: from NeedForRevolution on 3:05 am on April 20, 2003
We need some people who know how to fight!!!
A Revolution can't work with civilians and you all know that.............
I will myself join the army, but first only Military service not as a real job..........
i thought about realy joining the army but i want to achieve some thing in politics first if that doesnt work I will search for people who start the revolution with me and we need fighters..............
Its YOUR decision i dont want to force you to any side.....
dont know how it is in your countrys but in germany its quite easy to quit the army


Tell that to the farmers and peasants that fought the American Revolutionary War. Tell that to the North Vietnamese.

[BRIN]

NOXION don't give me this honourble bullshit,in the army you also live off the tax payer but you also kill inocent people,so by your honour if i was to mug a old woman and slit her from ear to ear i would be honourable because i wouldn't living off social security,BULLSHIT!! thats what your armys just about doing.Join some scandinavian army for they are socilist(so it won't conflict with your ideolgy)you won't be sent to war you'l and meet nice people.Or if your facination with the army is that of killing go mug and kill a old woman it the same as the army and plus you won't feel dishonourble

[redstar2000]

BRIN, NoXion already said he wasn't going to do it...so don't give him a hard time.

And the Scandinavian countries are capitalist countries...all of them.

:cool:

[angry]

..like the rest of the world.., sweden has the most left winged gov. they have social democrats, and a socialist party working together..also finland, though it is weird..they have LOTS of party´s in the gov..

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Here's my plan:

Laugh in the face of the recruiting officer who contacted me last week.

Wait until I am elgible for benefits, if necessary raid supermarket skips (Lots of perfectly edible food there, wasteful cappie system) if my parents are unwilling or unable to support me.

When I get benefits, get training or go to an adult learning centre and gain qualifications.

Emigrate out of this hellhole. (Cuba or someplace)
get nice job where ever I go because Brit qualifications are highly desirable (I think)

Live happily ever after!

[Sabocat]

Kudos....good choice.

[smoer]

Can't you do something else like waiter or something ?
Its youre chose to go in the army and it's kinda good when oyu have really no money but i should try something else first.
But hey i'm just a kid of 14 years old

[BRIN]

good on ya NOXION you've seen the light