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Andy Bowden
13th July 2007, 17:42
http://www.greenleft.org.au/2006/678/7706

LEBANON: Hezbollah: its origins and aims


17 November 1993
Michael Karadjis

The United States and Israel claim the horrific attack on Lebanese civilians is necessary to destroy the terrorist organisation Hezbollah, which is also routinely referred to as an Islamic fundamentalist movement.

Some such assertions are quite fantastic. An article in the July 24 Australian reported that some US government officials now share Israels assessment that [Sheik Hassan] Nasrallah is a bigger danger than Osama bin Laden comparing Hezbollahs leader and the head of the Islamist terrorist organisation al Qaeda.

The comparison of a group that allegedly provoked this Israeli massacre by abducting two soldiers and one that has killed thousands of people in actions like the destruction of the World Trade Center is self-evidently nonsense. Is there anything in Hezbollahs history that justifies such comparisons?

Several pro-Iranian groups appeared in 1982 among the poverty-stricken Shiite masses of southern Lebanon to fight the Israeli invasion that year. In 1985 Hezbollah emerged as an umbrella organisation of these groups.

The great majority of military actions Hezbollah has undertaken since then were against the 22-year Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon. Fundamentally, therefore, Hezbollah is a national liberation movement, rather than an Islamist or terrorist organisation.

The largest terrorist attack attributed to Hezbollah is the killing of 241 US occupation troops in Lebanon in 1983. However, this was clearly a guerrilla attack on a military target, not the wanton killing of civilians. In any case, Hezbollah denies responsibility for these actions.

Hezbollah is sometimes accused of wanting to set up an Islamic state in Lebanon, where its Shiite Muslim base accounts for some 40% of the population, alongside roughly 30% each of Sunni Muslims and Christians. This accusation derives from the widespread identification of Hezbollah with the Islamic Republic of Iran.

However, while the groups that formed Hezbollah were influenced by Irans February 1979 revolution, and it has strong links to Iran and to Shiite groups in Iraq, Hezbollahs evolution shows a strong relationship to the Lebanese reality in which it operates.

In its founding statement, An open letter to all the oppressed in Lebanon and the world (issued in Beirut on February 16, 1985), Hezbollah declared its aims were to drive the US, French and Israeli occupiers out of Lebanon, to defeat the right-wing Maronite Christian Phalange party, which dominated Lebanon and collaborated with the occupiers, and to permit our people to choose in all the liberty the form of government they desire.

While Hezbollah calls upon all of them to pick the option of Islamic government, nevertheless it said we dont want to impose Islam upon anybody. We dont want Islam to reign in Lebanon by force as is the case with the Maronites today. It tells Christians not to be deceived and misled into believing that we anticipate vengeance against you. For those of you who are peaceful, continue to live in our midst without anybody even thinking to trouble you.

The record would appear to bear out this rhetoric. There is little evidence that Hezbollah has ever attacked Christians for being Christians. The main Christian force it fought was the South Lebanon Army, which was a puppet force of the Israeli occupation.

In fact, some of Hezbollahs earliest clashes were with Amal, the other main organisation representing Shiite Muslims, due to Hezbollahs opposition to Amals brutal attacks on Palestinian refugee camps. Palestinians are mostly Sunni Muslims and Christians. Hezbollahs actions cut across the sectarian divisions on which Lebanons confessional system of government is based.

While Hezbollahs ideology fits into the category of Islamist, and appeals to Islam formed a core part of its strategy to mobilise against the Israeli occupation, the term fundamentalism usually refers to attempts to forcibly impose reactionary restrictions on the way people live, dress and so on. Yet the groups founding statement states that whoever wants to defeat the arrogant superpower the US cannot indulge in marginal acts, such as to dynamite bars and destroy slot machines.

My own experience in areas of south Beirut during a visit in the late 90s bears this out. There were far more women covered in veils in pro-Western Jordan than in Hezbollah-controlled south Beirut, where women were also more visible in the streets in general. This reflects the higher socio-economic level of Lebanon.

Hezbollah is far from being only a military organisation. It also runs a wide network of social services, schools and health centres, which service the poor generally, not only the Shiites. Since Lebanons undemocratic confessional system was reformed in 1991, Hezbollah has taken part in elections, and holds nearly a fifth of the seats in parliament.

Hezbollahs accordance with Lebanese realities and avoidance of the sectarian and fundamentalist extremes of some forms of political Islam enabled it to become the leading force in the resistance to Israeli occupation. But for this it has been accused of being anti-Jewish and of wanting to destroy Israel once Lebanon is liberated.

Nasrallah himself has made several anti-Jewish statements, which have been blown up by Zionist propagandists. These backward statements reflect the fact that decades of Zionist oppression of Palestinians and Lebanese does create prejudiced views among some of the oppressed. Many South African blacks would no doubt have blamed whites, rather than the system, for their oppression during the period of apartheid.

However, these occasional statements are at odds with more serious analyses by Hezbollah. Its website, Alghaliboun.net, contains articles that make explicit that its fight is against Zionism and not with Jews.

One such article, Judaism is not Zionism, after highlighting a very important fact that Israels brutal policy is rejected by many Jews all over the world, goes on to stress that it is Zionism that Muslims criticize, not Judaism or the Jewish nation Muslims respect all Gods religions, prophets and messengers.

Hezbollah was accused of bombing a Jewish community centre in Argentina in 1994, but denies this. There is much scepticism about this charge, due to the incompetence of the official investigation, during which no proper autopsies or DNA tests were done. A number of factors point to the involvement of Argentinas military in the attack.

For all the terrorism accusations, the only concrete fact is that Hezbollah has in the past fired Katyusha rockets into Israel, some of which have killed civilians. However, this was part of the war of liberation against Israeli occupation, during which Israel regularly responded to attacks on its military forces in Lebanon with massive attacks on Lebanese civilians. At such times, Hezbollah fired back. There was an enormous difference between the small numbers hit by Hezbollah and the huge numbers hit by Israel.

The same goes for the rockets Hezbollah has launched into Israel in response to the current attack. Less than 20 Israeli civilians have been killed, compared to estimates as high as 750 Lebanese. It is certainly debatable whether firing back into Israel achieves anything militarily that can make up for the boosting of support within Israel for the war when even a few civilians are killed. However, firing back when under massive attack is normal in war and can hardly be called terrorism.

There have been several clashes near the border since Israel withdrew from most of southern Lebanon in 2000, but overwhelmingly Hezbollah has stuck to its pledge not to make cross-border attacks. The only significant event was the death of five Israeli civilians in an incursion in March 2002, which Hezbollah claims it had nothing to do with. According to UN observer reports, Israel has violated the border between the two countries 10 times more frequently than Hezbollah has.

In December 2005, al Qaeda launched a cross-border attack into Israel from southern Lebanon. Hezbollah is extremely hostile to al Qaeda and has vigorously denounced actions such as the attack on the World Trade Center and the beheading of Nick Berg, a US businessperson captured by followers of Abu Musab al Zarqawi in Iraq. However, al Qaeda appears to have developed support among a few of the desperate Palestinian refugees in Lebanon.

Nasrallah responded to the cross-border attack by saying: We believe that this operation was a mistake, because we believe that the Katyusha rocket should be used as a defensive strategy. If Israel attacks us, we respond with Katyushas. However, the Katyushua is not a weapon for a jihadist operation. Launching a Katyusha for no reason violates our strategy.

Responding to the appearance of al Qaeda in Lebanon, Nasrallah blamed such extremism among some Palestinians on attempts by the Lebanese right-wing to forcibly disarm Palestinians, whom he defended as our brothers. However, al Qaeda would mean calling for explosions, for blowing up Shiite religious centers, churches, mosques, and Sunnis, Shiites, Kurds ... is this how we will build the country?

The association made by pro-Israeli media between Hezbollah's defensive use of Katyushas and some of the intemperate language about obliterating Israel suggests that Hezbollahs primitive rockets might be a weapon to carry out the destruction of a first-rate military and economic power.

However, shorn of such rhetoric, Nasrallahs actual view is that Israel is a state based on occupation, that has usurped the rights of others, but that on this land, Muslims, Christians and Jews can coexist together, as they have for hundreds of years, in the framework of a democratic state.

Hezbollah is led by sections of the small-scale Shiite bourgeoisie and petty bourgeoisie, who have no interest in a jihad to liberate Palestine. The interests of this layer is in gaining a larger share of the pie in Lebanon, where the Christian and, to an extent, the Sunni big bourgeoisie have long been dominant. It is not in the interests of this layers prosperity to have constant conflict and destruction of its land by Israel.

At the same time, the oppression suffered by the Shiite masses at the hands of Israel, and the fact that they live in the same impoverished regions as half-a-million Palestinian refugees, has given rise to strong feelings of solidarity with the Palestinian struggle, as well as the view that the Palestine peace process will not be complete without solving the problem of the refugees in Lebanese neighbourhoods.

Hezbollah is a nationalist, not a socialist, organisation, and socialists have many differences with Hezbollahs ideology and many of its tactics. However, recognising that it is a national liberation movement rather than a fundamentalist or terrorist organisation is important in understanding the kinds of allies that are necessary in national struggle. Moreover, it is not necessary to romanticise Hezbollah in order to recognise that its actual political evolution and many of its tactical decisions make it a far better vehicle for the national struggle than many other organisations in the region with roots in political Islam, such as al Qaeda.

***

Chebol posted this link a while back (though not the full article) , I saw it while having a look through some of the old threads re Hezbollah during the war on Lebanon last summer, thought it was quite interesting and worth more comment and discussion than it got back then.

How, for example, is Hezbollah different from any other National Liberation movement around the world (IRA, FLN etc)?

Revolution Until Victory
13th July 2007, 19:28
Nasrallah himself has made several anti-Jewish statements

what?? what are they? there have been several FAKE quotes of the guerilla leader having anti-Jewish sentiments, in fact.


Responding to the appearance of al Qaeda in Lebanon, Nasrallah blamed such extremism among some Palestinians on attempts by the Lebanese right-wing to forcibly disarm Palestinians

what the hell is that?? the most known group is Fatah-al Islam, in which the vast majority of its members are NOT palestinian. it is even no secret that it is being funded and led by the US-Zionist collaborators in lebanon (namely, the Future movment and some other imperialists dogs)

and what's up with all that shit about Hizbollah not wanting to "destory" Israel and being all nice to it? Israel is a settler-colony and its distruction is a MUST for any rational human being, let alone a leftist, in the same sense the distruction of Rhodesia was a must for any leftist and rational person. no compromise with colonialism. and yes, Hizbollah, since it's an anti-imperialist national liberation movment, aims at the total distruction of zionist colonialism.


How, for example, is Hezbollah different from any other National Liberation movement around the world (IRA, FLN etc)?

lol, it's not!! many national liberation movments around the world would adobt an ideology but have the main goal of liberating thier homeland, nothing else. Hezbollah is just like, say, the Zimbabwen ZAPU and ZANU who claimed to be marxist, but had the one goal and one goal only of liberating Zimbabwe. Hizbollah's goal is the liberation of its homeland and end colonialism, nothing else.

KC
14th July 2007, 05:04
The largest terrorist attack attributed to Hezbollah is the killing of 241 US occupation troops in Lebanon in 1983. However, this was clearly a guerrilla attack on a military target, not the wanton killing of civilians. In any case, Hezbollah denies responsibility for these actions.

Don't forget that it was never actually determined who did this.


While Hezbollahs ideology fits into the category of Islamist

I hate this term. It's mostly an empty rhetorical phrase. Are they Islamist because they're Muslim, or because they promote Islam? Who all fits into this group?


Hezbollahs accordance with Lebanese realities and avoidance of the sectarian and fundamentalist extremes of some forms of political Islam enabled it to become the leading force in the resistance to Israeli occupation.

The majority of their popularity is due to their massive victories against Israeli occupiers when other organizations were unable to do so.


Nasrallah himself has made several anti-Jewish statements

I'm not so sure about that. Sometimes these statements are taken out of context, and sometimes they're even fabricated. Of the ones that I have heard Nasrallah actually say himself, he was specifically referring to Israelis when he said "the jews". Calling Israelis "jews" is relatively common in the region, and to take these statements out of that context is where these fabrications come from. Then again, I haven't really greatly researched Nasrallah and could be wrong, but I'm just going based on what I've heard/read.


For all the terrorism accusations, the only concrete fact is that Hezbollah has in the past fired Katyusha rockets into Israel, some of which have killed civilians.

They have also been accused of arming and training groups in Iraq, which I haven't been able to either confirm or deny (I believe the Iraqi forces caught a Hizb'allah agent by the name of Dakduk/Daqduq who they said was ordered by Hizb'allah to train "insurgents" in Iraq. If you look it up you'll see the story).


However, this was part of the war of liberation against Israeli occupation, during which Israel regularly responded to attacks on its military forces in Lebanon with massive attacks on Lebanese civilians. At such times, Hezbollah fired back. There was an enormous difference between the small numbers hit by Hezbollah and the huge numbers hit by Israel.

There was indeed. It's unfortunate, yet not surprising, that what was reported on in the media was solely the firing of rockets. They didn't even mention the "free fire" zones set up by Israeli invaders which resulted in the deaths of thousands of civilians. Still, I can't support this action (but I wouldn't call it "terrorism").


In December 2005, al Qaeda launched a cross-border attack into Israel from southern Lebanon. Hezbollah is extremely hostile to al Qaeda and has vigorously denounced actions such as the attack on the World Trade Center and the beheading of Nick Berg, a US businessperson captured by followers of Abu Musab al Zarqawi in Iraq. However, al Qaeda appears to have developed support among a few of the desperate Palestinian refugees in Lebanon.

As well as other groups. However, this massacre caused by Fatah al-Islam infiltrating the camp is sure to gain opposition to both groups.


How, for example, is Hezbollah different from any other National Liberation movement around the world (IRA, FLN etc)?

Not very. In some cases better, some worse, but not much different.


what the hell is that?? the most known group is Fatah-al Islam, in which the vast majority of its members are NOT palestinian. it is even no secret that it is being funded and led by the US-Zionist collaborators in lebanon (namely, the Future movment and some other imperialists dogs)


Do you have more information on this?


and what's up with all that shit about Hizbollah not wanting to "destory" Israel and being all nice to it?

Well, that all depends on what you mean by "destroy Israel". If you mean dismantling the oppressive Israeli state, then I would agree with you. If you mean wholesale slaughter of both Israeli officials and citizens, I would disagree.




The worst aspect of Hizb'allah, though, is its connections to Iran and the power that Iran "holds over" it. It's certainly a much more independent and multi-faceted organization than it was in the 80's, but it is still a problem.

Faux Real
14th July 2007, 05:37
Do you have more information on this?

Originally posted by Wikipedia
Membership
The official spokesman for Fatah al-Islam is Abu Salim Taha. Fatah al-Islam supposedly has 150-200 armed fighters in the Nahr el-Bared camp. The group allegedly has about a half dozen Palestinian members. The bulk of its membership is said to made up of Syrians, Saudis, and other Arab Jihadists who had fought in Iraq, as well as approximately 50 Lebanese Sunnis.



How, for example, is Hezbollah different from any other National Liberation movement around the world (IRA, FLN etc)?
As RUV and Zampan have said they're not very different at all, the major difference being that Israel and the US have pressure on them. They certainly are made up of Muslums but aren't looking for an Islamic state. They want popular decision of what type of government they want.

Revolution Until Victory
14th July 2007, 05:40
Do you have more information on this?

the nationalities are mostly Saudi, Yemeni, Lebanese, Syrian, Bangali, Algerian, Chechen, among others. according to La Figaro, Palestinians compose less than 6 members of the group (!). Besides, all those dead from the fighting were almost all Saudis.
concering the issue of who's behind this group, it's well known Suadi Arabia and the Lebanese US-Zionist agents in the region are behind it. I remember Simon Hersh said something about this. the Future Movment, a sunni group led by the Harrirs (imperialist agents) supposidly funded and created Fatah al Islam to counter Hizbollah.


Well, that all depends on what you mean by "destroy Israel". If you mean dismantling the oppressive Israeli state, then I would agree with you. If you mean wholesale slaughter of both Israeli officials and citizens, I would disagree.

lol, why would you even think such a thing? what I mean by "distory Israel", is exaclty what I mean by saying "distroy Rhodesia" or "French Algeria".
I mean dismantling this Aparthied Settler-colony, not through a "peaceful solution", but through popular guerilla warfare, revolutionary violence, and peoples war (so yes, there would be violence involved, no other solution)

btw, we have to remember, the Israelis are just like the Rhodesians: COLONIZERS. they are not innocnet civilians. in other words, no reason to treat the zionist colonizers differently than the French, Portugese, or Belgiuqe colonizers were treated by the anti-colonial resistance.

Revolution Until Victory
14th July 2007, 05:53
There was indeed. It's unfortunate, yet not surprising,...Still, I can't support this action (but I wouldn't call it "terrorism").

Zampano, if you don't not support the anti-colonial actions of the Lebanese resistance, then you necessarly don't support the Zimbabwen resistance, Algerian resistance, Angola resistance, Indonesian resistance, Congolese resistance, Mouzambiquian resistance, South African resistance, native Australian resistance, Namibian resistance, Cameroonian resistance, Native American resistance, and almost all other native resistance against colonialism. All did what the Lebanese anti-colonial resistance is and was doing. no difference at all.

Labor Shall Rule
14th July 2007, 07:49
Revolution Until Victory, what are you saying? That we should not be critical of national liberation movements at all? To me, that is political suicide. I would never surrender my principles to the reckless gamble of anti-imperialism; the blood of too many workers and communists has been spilled when we discuss the importance of "pushing out occupiers" rather than staying clear to our historical objective.

I think the phrase colonizer carries a negative connotation; it lumps certain layers of workers along ethnic lines, rather than their distinct class background. It is bourgeois hogwash, an insulting label that breaks with our internationalist fervor and replaces it with the guise of chauvinistic lethargy. I think, if we ever want a sucessful revolution in the Middle East, we have to seek allies in not just the Arab countries, but also in that Jewish parcel. The role of socialists should be to organize the working class at the head of these struggles, in opposition to the national bourgeoisie, as well as to coordinate internationally, especially with the workers of the oppressor country. If we do not examine this struggle from the correct perspective, we have a lot to lose.

In the case of Palestine, the bourgeoisie is objectively capable of playing a progressive role, so the working class should cautiously ally with them. This also to Lebanon to a degree; their labor movement is strong, and dominated by communists. The Lebanese construction workers union called on their members to volunteer to help in the search and recovery efforts after the bombing campaign that was unleashed on them last summer. When the massacre of Lebanese civilians in Qana happened, the union announced on the radio that their members in the area should go there to help. And they did. I think it is these forces that we should ally ourself with, rather than glancing uncritically at Hezbollah as the saviors of Lebanese workers.

al-Ibadani
14th July 2007, 08:05
Workers have no business supporting any bourgeois cliques like Hezbollah. NO bourgeois faction is progressive. National liberation is anti-proletarian.

Read Rosa Luxembourg on this. Workers have no country, period!

Revolution Until Victory
14th July 2007, 17:21
Revolution Until Victory, what are you saying? That we should not be critical of national liberation movements at all?

no! were did I say such a thing? I defended the Lebanese resistance against baseless and unfounded alegations that's all.


I think the phrase colonizer carries a negative connotation; it lumps certain layers of workers along ethnic lines, rather than their distinct class background. It is bourgeois hogwash, an insulting label that breaks with our internationalist fervor and replaces it with the guise of chauvinistic lethargy. I think, if we ever want a sucessful revolution in the Middle East, we have to seek allies in not just the Arab countries, but also in that Jewish parcel.

As I have stated many times before, the Palestinian (and thus the greater arab) revolution aims at liberating BOTH arab AND jew from colonialism and imperialism. I totally agree that the workers on both sides should unit, but first, they should get rid of any colonial identity or imperialist identity.

KC
14th July 2007, 18:30
the nationalities are mostly Saudi, Yemeni, Lebanese, Syrian, Bangali, Algerian, Chechen, among others. according to La Figaro, Palestinians compose less than 6 members of the group (!). Besides, all those dead from the fighting were almost all Saudis.
concering the issue of who's behind this group, it's well known Suadi Arabia and the Lebanese US-Zionist agents in the region are behind it. I remember Simon Hersh said something about this. the Future Movment, a sunni group led by the Harrirs (imperialist agents) supposidly funded and created Fatah al Islam to counter Hizbollah.

Do you have any links to articles or anything like that where I could read further on this?


lol, why would you even think such a thing?

Because a lot of people consider "destroy Israel" to mean the latter.


btw, we have to remember, the Israelis are just like the Rhodesians: COLONIZERS.

I disagree. I think it has gone past that stage, much like Americans are no longer colonizers of the United States. However, I certainly would agree that those building settler colonies on Lebanese/Palestinian land in order to expand the borders of Israel are definitely colonizers.


they are not innocnet civilians. in other words, no reason to treat the zionist colonizers differently than the French, Portugese, or Belgiuqe colonizers were treated by the anti-colonial resistance.

There is certainly good reason to treat them differently. The conditions in these events were completely different; the locations you have listed were actual colonies.


Zampano, if you don't not support the anti-colonial actions of the Lebanese resistance

You're saying I have to support every action taken by an anti-imperialist group or I don't support anti-imperialism? What a load of crap. I don't support the random killing of civilians. That includes the firing of Katyusha rockets into Israel.

As you have said, the goal is to dismantle the oppressive Israeli state, not wipe out the population.


Workers have no business supporting any bourgeois cliques like Hezbollah. NO bourgeois faction is progressive. National liberation is anti-proletarian.


And your proposal is that we reject them? That'll be productive...


no! were did I say such a thing?

You said this after I said I don't support the firing of Katyusha rockets into Israel:

"Zampano, if you don't not support the anti-colonial actions of the Lebanese resistance, then you necessarly don't support the Zimbabwen resistance, Algerian resistance, Angola resistance, Indonesian resistance, Congolese resistance, Mouzambiquian resistance, South African resistance, native Australian resistance, Namibian resistance, Cameroonian resistance, Native American resistance, and almost all other native resistance against colonialism. All did what the Lebanese anti-colonial resistance is and was doing. no difference at all."

Absolutely nothing I said was "baseless and unfounded". Basically what you said is that because I don't support that action that I don't support "the anti-colonial actions of the Lebanese resistance" and therefore don't support national liberation movements at all. It was a ridiculous thing to say.

Revolution Until Victory
14th July 2007, 18:56
Do you have any links to articles or anything like that where I could read further on this?

I will look for some and post them


Because a lot of people consider "destroy Israel" to mean the latter.

my experience is different


I disagree. I think it has gone past that stage, much like Americans are no longer colonizers of the United States. However, I certainly would agree that those building settler colonies on Lebanese/Palestinian land in order to expand the borders of Israel are definitely colonizers.

Zampano, please be serious. Europeans have been colonizing native lands in north america for at least 300 years (if you want to start counting from the offical establishment of thier colony), the zionists for a less than 59 years. how on earth can you compare the two??? in no way did the zionists past the stage of being colonizers. a mere 58 years do not allow you to pass that stage. the French colonized Algeria for 132 yeaers. you can't seriously claim "the french have passed the stage of colonizers". the Europeans colonized South Africa for around 500 years (!), and they were still colonizers. And I disagree with you. I still consider Americans as colonizers.


There is certainly good reason to treat them differently. The conditions in these events were completely different; the locations you have listed were actual colonies.

lol, the locations I listed were colonies. Isreal is a colony. there is no reason to treat them diffrently, or at least, as much as the anti-colonial resistance is concerned. Both the locations I have listed and Israel are colonizers living on stolen lands. Isrfael is as much a colony as Rhodesia or South Africa. (of course, they are not exaclty the same, but, again, I'm talking in relation to the resistance)


You're saying I have to support every action taken by an anti-imperialist group or I don't support anti-imperialism? What a load of crap. I don't support the random killing of civilians. That includes the firing of Katyusha rockets into Israel.

As you have said, the goal is to dismantle the oppressive Israeli state, not wipe out the population.

you obviously misunderstood what I said. I never meant you have to support every action. I was referring to the attacks of the Lebanese resistance against the zionist colonizers.
this is not "random killing of civilians".
this is equal to the attacks of the ANC on the European colonizers, or the attacks of the FLN on the French colonizers. I would NEVER consider the French colonizers as "innocent civlians". same hold true for the zionist colonizers.
and yes, the goal is to dismantle this settler-colony. firing Katyshas wouldn't wipe out the population.


You said this after I said I don't support the firing of Katyusha rockets into Israel:

no that was a response to RedDali when he said:


That we should not be critical of national liberation movements at all

I clearly didn't oppose being critical to national liberation movments.

what I meant by:


"Zampano, if you don't not support the anti-colonial actions of the Lebanese resistance, then you necessarly don't support the Zimbabwen resistance, Algerian resistance, Angola resistance, Indonesian resistance, Congolese resistance, Mouzambiquian resistance, South African resistance, native Australian resistance, Namibian resistance, Cameroonian resistance, Native American resistance, and almost all other native resistance against colonialism. All did what the Lebanese anti-colonial resistance is and was doing. no difference at all."

is that what the lebanese resistance is doing (targeting colonizers) is what was done by almost all other anti-colonial resistance. if you reject that based on the claim it's "random killing of civilians", then you got to reject all of the anti-colonial resistance of the ones I mentioned, since all of them did the same thing the Lebanese resistance was doing.


Absolutely nothing I said was "baseless and unfounded".

lol, I know. I wasn't referring to you!!!
when I said "baselss and unfounded" I meant some allegations that came in the ORIGIANL ARTICLE, not your post!!


Basically what you said is that because I don't support that action that I don't support "the anti-colonial actions of the Lebanese resistance" and therefore don't support national liberation movements at all. It was a ridiculous thing to say.

I meant if you didn't support that action of the lebanese resistance, then you didn't support the other resistance I mentioned, since all did the same thing.

Omar
14th July 2007, 19:51
Originally posted by Zampan@July 14, 2007 04:04 am

While Hezbollahs ideology fits into the category of Islamist

I hate this term. It's mostly an empty rhetorical phrase. Are they Islamist because they're Muslim, or because they promote Islam? Who all fits into this group?
Islamist is short for Islamic fundamentalist. Usually those who wish to establish a worldwide Khalifah. Hezbollah are certainly Islamic fundamentalists, and have the stated aim of wiping out Israel and establishing an Islamic theocracy in its place. Everyone, especially leftists, should be wary of this.

Revolution Until Victory
14th July 2007, 19:54
Islamist is short for Islamic fundamentalist. Usually those who wish to establish a worldwide Khalifah. Hezbollah are certainly Islamic fundamentalists, and have the stated aim of wiping out Israel and establishing an Islamic theocracy in its place. Everyone, especially leftists, should be wary of this.

no, Hezbollah are not Islamic "Fundimantalists". Since they are anti-colonial and anti-imperialist, they cetinaly aim at disnmantling the zionist settler-colony. but as even this article have pointed out, they don't aim at establishing a relegious state. they will leave it for the people to decide.

Omar
14th July 2007, 20:01
Originally posted by Revolution Until [email protected] 14, 2007 04:40 am

Do you have more information on this?

the nationalities are mostly Saudi, Yemeni, Lebanese, Syrian, Bangali, Algerian, Chechen, among others. according to La Figaro, Palestinians compose less than 6 members of the group (!). Besides, all those dead from the fighting were almost all Saudis.
concering the issue of who's behind this group, it's well known Suadi Arabia and the Lebanese US-Zionist agents in the region are behind it. I remember Simon Hersh said something about this. the Future Movment, a sunni group led by the Harrirs (imperialist agents) supposidly funded and created Fatah al Islam to counter Hizbollah.
You think that the US, in the current climate and with the knowledge of what happened with Mujahedin in Afghanistan would willingly set up an al-qaeda inspired Jihadi movement to destabilize an ally (Lebanon)? <_<

Revolution Until Victory
14th July 2007, 20:06
You think that the US, in the current climate and with the knowledge of what happened with Mujahedin in Afghanistan would willingly set up an al-qaeda inspired Jihadi movement to destabilize an ally (Lebanon)?

certinaly. it&#39;s obvious the imperialists never learn. in the 80&#39;s, the zionists were helping and funding Hamas in the hope of weakining the PLO. Now, Hamas had turned against them. the zionist imperialists didn&#39;t learn, and now, are doing the opposite. helping al Fatah to weaken Hamas. ultimatly, al Fatah will return to its anti-colonial stance and turn against the zionsts.
Hezbollah is a major force in Lebanon. it&#39;s a major threat to US-Zionist imperialist interists. the US thus thought of "weakening" it through a sunni group since it&#39;s "anti-Shia". Besides, it&#39;s not like I myself came up with this analysis&#33;

Omar
14th July 2007, 20:23
Originally posted by Revolution Until [email protected] 14, 2007 07:06 pm
Hezbollah is a major force in Lebanon. it&#39;s a major threat to US-Zionist imperialist interists. the US thus thought of "weakening" it through a sunni group since it&#39;s "anti-Shia". Besides, it&#39;s not like I myself came up with this analysis&#33;
I agree with your assessment of Fatah and Hamas and the changing support offered by the Zionists, but honestly the belief that Hezbollah doesn&#39;t want a theocracy in Palestine and Lebanon if they had the chance is naive. Hezbollah views the Iranian model of an Islamic state as the most desirable form of governance.

We should never weaken in the form of facism, especialy religious facism, whether it be Israeli, Iranian or Lebanese in flavour.

*Steps off of soap box*

Revolution Until Victory
14th July 2007, 20:31
but honestly the belief that Hezbollah doesn&#39;t want a theocracy in Palestine and Lebanon if they had the chance is naive. Hezbollah views the Iranian model of an Islamic state as the most desirable form of governance.

certinaly, Hizbollah and many muslims around the world aim at establishing an Islamic state. but what is clear, is that Hezbollah doesn&#39;t aim at establishing an Islamic state BY FORCE. in other words, it will not impose it. it will let the people decide. I tend to view Hizbollah like all other national liberation movments: got the one goal and one goal only of liberating its homeland, nothing else.

KC
14th July 2007, 20:47
Zampano, please be serious. Europeans have been colonizing native lands in north america for at least 300 years

Those aren&#39;t colonies anymore.


in no way did the zionists past the stage of being colonizers. a mere 58 years do not allow you to pass that stage.

It isn&#39;t measured by time but the historical circumstances and progressions.


the French colonized Algeria for 132 yeaers.

Yes, there was a French colony in Algeria. Whose colony is Israel?


I still consider Americans as colonizers.

Then you don&#39;t understand how colonies work or the historical progressions and change in the material conditions in the past 300 years. Claiming that Americans now are in the same position as African colonizers in the 19th century is ridiculous.


you obviously misunderstood what I said. I never meant you have to support every action. I was referring to the attacks of the Lebanese resistance against the zionist colonizers.
this is not "random killing of civilians".
this is equal to the attacks of the ANC on the European colonizers, or the attacks of the FLN on the French colonizers. I would NEVER consider the French colonizers as "innocent civlians". same hold true for the zionist colonizers.
and yes, the goal is to dismantle this settler-colony. firing Katyshas wouldn&#39;t wipe out the population.

Ok, so the krux of our difference is whether or not Israel is a colony. That leads me back to my earlier question.


Islamist is short for Islamic fundamentalist. Usually those who wish to establish a worldwide Khalifah. Hezbollah are certainly Islamic fundamentalists, and have the stated aim of wiping out Israel and establishing an Islamic theocracy in its place. Everyone, especially leftists, should be wary of this.

You can keep claiming that, but let&#39;s see you substantiate this assertion. Show us where they have stated any such thing.

Revolution Until Victory
14th July 2007, 21:13
It isn&#39;t measured by time but the historical circumstances and progressions.

really? would you care explaining them to me?


Yes, there was a French colony in Algeria. Whose colony is Israel?

ok, now you are using the typical zionist excuse. it doesn&#39;t matter it is the colony of whom, at least, as far as the resistance is concerned. If French Algeria declared "independece" from France and set up its own settler-colony, and confined the Algerians to Bantustans, I would certinaly still considre it a colony. tell me, Aparthied South Africa, was the colony of whom, 1961 and onward?
the fact remains, they are colonizers robbing and stealing the natives lands, wether on behlaf of a governemnt or not.


Claiming that Americans now are in the same position as African colonizers in the 19th century is ridiculous.

there sure are differences, but that doesn&#39;t mean Americans today stopped being colonizers. they are sill stealing native lands and maintaining their settler-colony on thier expense and ruins. Same situation with Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. all are settler-colonies.

Spirit of Spartacus
15th July 2007, 14:10
@ Zampano


Yes, there was a French colony in Algeria. Whose colony is Israel?

It is an outpost of Western imperialism in the Arab world. They cynically used the suffering of the Jewish people in World War II as an excuse to support the establishment of a pro-NATO state in the middle of the strategically vital Middle-East.


Claiming that Americans now are in the same position as African colonizers in the 19th century is ridiculous.

Context&#33;

As far as North America is concerned, the US is no longer "colonizing" it, for the simple reason that the colonizing process has been completed long ago, with the genocide of native populations.

But for people in the developing world, who are the target of US imperialism, America is as much of a colonizer as the Europeans who colonized 19th century Africa.

Revolution Until Victory
15th July 2007, 16:54
the problem is, Zampano is approching "colonialism" from a text book defenition. but that&#39;s just laughable, since colonialism doesn&#39;t have a text book defenition, rather, a specific set of essential and necessary aspects shared by all colonial experiences. Among the most essential and common aspects of colonialism is to replace the native population with a forgien one, uspur thier land and property, massacre them, confine them to Bantustans/Cantons/Reservations/homelands(or simply rule over them), and dominate them politicaly and economicaly. All of those are more than available in the colonial experience of Europeans in North America and the Zionists in Palestine, as well as almost all other colonial experiences.

Intifada
17th July 2007, 13:40
It is a shame that some people on the Left fall into the trap of labelling any Islamic resistance as "fundamentalist", and argue that we should not support their resistance of imperialist aggression.

All this while they sit in the luxury of their homes.