British ships off the coast of Catalonia

[Amusing Scrotum]

I was just reading over the Appendixes in my copy of Homage to Catalonia, and I came across the following passage in Appendix II -- Chapter XI in the first edition:


Originally posted by Orwell
Thirdly -- though this was not generally known at the time -- the Anarchist leaders feared that if things went beyond a certain point and the workers took possession of the town, as they were perhaps in a position to do on 5 May, there would be foreign intervention. A British cruiser and two British destroyers had closed in upon the harbour, and no doubt there were other warships not far away. The English newspapers gave it out that these ships were proceeding to Barcelona "to protect British interests", but in fact they made no move to do so; that is, they did not land any men or take off any refugees. There can be no certainty about this, but it was at least inherently likely that the British Government, which had not raised a finger to save the Spanish Government from Franco, would intervene quickly enough to save it from its own working class.

Does anyone have any further information on the possibility of there being a British invasion of Catalonia in order to protect the Republican Government? Doesn't seem likely to me, given the time frame involved here.

After all, this was during the May fighting in Barcelona, when the last elements of workers control were being destroyed by the Spanish Police, under the direction of the PSUC -- the Communist Party, in other words. And I think that most people agree that by this time, the revolution was over; or at least dying.

The CNT had joined the Government, and it leadership were opposed to any further fighting which would undermine its attempts to unite with the UGT. Which meant that it was only really the Friends of Durruti and POUM that were beating the drums of revolution -- with the CNT rank and file, more or less, just content with holding certain strategic points.

So, as I said, it seems unlikely to me that the British Government would intervene at this point in time, unless it had been planning to intervene from the beginning. Something which, as far as I know, it hadn't planned to do -- I've certainly seen nothing that suggests a British military invasion was planned during the early stages of the revolution.

But, anyway, if anyone could provide any further information on this I'd really appreciate it. Because if people really thought there was a possibility of invasion, then I think the question of how this impacted on CNT policy becomes an interesting one.

And I also think if there was a possibility of invasion, then this would also have affected the Communist policy. Perhaps driving them to speed up the suppression of revolutionary elements, in order to avert a possible invasion and therefore, further secure their own position of dominance.
_ _ _ _ _

Additionally, does anyone know if the Communist press from the time is archived anywhere on the internet? I'm sure I could find various extracts from the Daily Worker -- Orwell provides a few, for example -- but I'd quite like to find full articles from the time.

[Random Precision]

I'm currently doing research on a topic very close to this, and have heard of the British warships from Orwell and other sources. What they basically said was that even though the warships were there, their purpose was at most to take on British refugees in the event of an all-out conflict in the Republic, if even that. The quote you provided from "Homage" pretty much says it all.

I'll look for citation, and the communist press that you mention.

[Lamanov]

Oh, yes, I've read Homage and that passage was actually no big surprise. It fits in perfectly to the whole story of the Spanish war.

British war ships were there to protect the Republican and Generalitet Stalinist headed bourgeois government from a working class and POUM-left-of-FAI insurrection. This was the time when France and USSR were in a close coalition, and a British govenment was a three wheeler's perfect third wheel that rolled over the interests of the Revolution.

The reason why it did not intervene before is obvious: the revolution itself was very spontaneous and surprising, and the Republican govenment with it's new wide left and autonomous national coalitions was brought out on the back of that revolution. It was basically left to those internal forces to take charge in reshaping its own terrain according to the instructions made by Stalin and his "People's Front" alies. British warships were there just in case things got out of hand.

And they almost did, in May 1937.

If I come across any other refferences I'll let you know.

[ComradeOm]

I've not seen any sources or details to suggest that the British government was planning to invade or intervene in Spain. The prevalent attitude at the time appears to have been one of studied disinterest. Certainly DJ-TC's theory, grand collusion between Baldwin/Chamberlain and Stalin is complete bollocks.

This is not true of the Royal Navy though whose officers were, naturally, inclined to sympathise with the Nationalist cause. They would have been fully aware of the fate of officers in the Russian Imperial Navy of 1917. There was a decided bias amongst these British officers in enforcing the blockade - which, lest we forget, led to RN flotillas maintaining position off the coast for the duration of the war - while Gibraltar was used to supply both ammunition and information to the Nationalists. I've yet to see anything to suggest that this was anything but the initiative of the officers themselves.

So in short - there was no possibility of invasion and the British government had no interest in aiding the Republicans.

[Invader Zim]

I remmeber reading that they were there as a token show of protection of the highly passive-aggressive non-intervention agreement, which obviously was nothing but a token show as Britain totally ignored because the Italian fascist, German Nazi, and Stalinist Russian regimes intervention.

There are lot of moments in British history which makes one detest ones own nationality, but few are as high on my list as Britains conduct in the Spanish civil war.

[bolshevik butcher]

Well really what can we expect from a bourgoirse state? Defence of "democracy"? Defence of the revolution? Ultimatley such tasks will always lie with the working class and many members of the British and Irish working class went to Spain and fought and some died fighting alongside the Spanish workers and peasants, their memories should not be forgotten.

[Lamanov]

Originally posted by ComradeOm+July 20, 2007 12:01 pm--> (ComradeOm @ July 20, 2007 12:01 pm) Certainly DJ-TC's theory, grand collusion between Baldwin/Chamberlain and Stalin is complete bollocks. [/b]

I guess an explanation of this "impossibility" follows?


Comrade Om
There was a decided bias amongst these British officers in enforcing the blockade - which, lest we forget, led to RN flotillas maintaining position off the coast for the duration of the war - while Gibraltar was used to supply both ammunition and information to the Nationalists.

So? What were the British supposed to do? Block German ships? Under what pretext? Were they to go to open war? Over what? Did officers decide about British foreign policy now?

They were not yet ready to intervene directly against Germany. They weren't willing to do so even two years later, when Czechoslovakia happened. Reasons for British and French "neutrality" lay in their evasion of conflict in the Mediterranean sea with Italy, but that didn't mean that they would shy away from defending their longterm interests in their own backyard, where they had both strategic and economic interests, in which Stalin helped them, by watching over the rule of the bourgeoisie through PSUC.

Besides, nationalists received help in the port of Cadiz from Hamburg, which is not mediated by Gibraltar.

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by DJ-[email protected] 25, 2007 09:09 pm
I guess an explanation of this "impossibility" follows?

Its simply absurd. The idea that there was some great reactionary conspiracy (comprising Stalin and London but, oddly enough, not the fascists) to kill off the POUM has absolutely no basis in fact and can only result from a gross misreading of the war.

Why would London possibly want to protect the Republican government from the POUM? This is at the same time that Britain was pursuing a strictly non-interventionist approach to Spain. Its also a British government that was convinced that the Republicans were nothing more than communists, an image that the disbanding of the international Brigades did little to dispel.


So? What were the British supposed to do? Block German ships? Under what pretext? Were they to go to open war? Over what? Did officers decide about British foreign policy now?How about adhering to the British policy of non-intervention and not give intelligence and material aid to the rebels? Its also known that the Royal Navy blockade of the peninsula during the war was openly flaunted by the Nationalists. This RN collusion is documented fact.

So on the one hand you have the British government actively enforcing non-interventionism (Chamberlain would later sacrifice Spain, in the same manner as the Czechs, for the sake of "peace") and on the other you have the Royal Navy showing bias to the Nationalists... yet you maintain, despite all evidence and common sense, that the British establishment was in collusion with "Bolshevik Russia" in sustaining a Republican government that Westminster perceived as communist?


Besides, nationalists received help in the port of Cadiz from Hamburg, which is not mediated by Gibraltar.Nationalist arms and aid arrived through many ports.

[CornetJoyce]

Well, English "neutrality" wasn't what one could call neutrality. Orwell regarded the English Non-Intervention Committee as pro-fascist. In 1943, an Orwell article indicted the overwhelming majority of the tory leadership as fascist sympathizers. Orwell's view of the Non-Intervention Committee was shared by the American ambassador, Claude Bowers, who desperately implored Roosevelt to do something to save the Spanish Republic. (After the war, he was ambassador to Chile where he gathered a circle of young people that included Salvadore Allende.)
The Blum government sent planes, pilots and support to the Spanish Republic but the French were pressed into "neutrality" by their more potent English quasi-allies, as happened repeatedly in those years; and the Blum government was never stable.

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28, 2007 07:26 pm
Well, English "neutrality" wasn't what one could call neutrality.
Indeed. British non-intervention definitely favoured the Nationalists. Which makes the idea that they were in cohorts with Stalin to aid the Republic seem all the more ludicrious.

[chimx]

But if you look at British statements taken in 1936, you will see that they were quite worried of a fascist Spain. The FRUS series has 400 pages on the spanish civil war and is located in the pinned thread on primary sources.

[Random Precision]

Its simply absurd. The idea that there was some great reactionary conspiracy (comprising Stalin and London but, oddly enough, not the fascists) to kill off the POUM has absolutely no basis in fact and can only result from a gross misreading of the war.

I don't know about the involvement of London or even Stalin personally in the POUM's supression, but denying that there was a conspiracy to supress the POUM would most certainly be absurd.

[Conghaileach]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2007 01:01 pm
So in short - there was no possibility of invasion and the British government had no interest in aiding the Republicans.
I can't remember where but a while ago I read that British warships prevented weapons shipments from Mexico from reaching the Republican government.

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by chimx+--> (chimx)But if you look at British statements taken in 1936, you will see that they were quite worried of a fascist Spain. The FRUS series has 400 pages on the spanish civil war and is located in the pinned thread on primary sources.[/b]I don't think that it was ever official Westminster policy to look favourably on the fascists, in Spain and beyond, but British governments up to 1939 had absolutely no intention to actively engaging far-right movements. Right from '36 it was policy not to interfere in Iberian affairs. Spain also has to be seen in the wider context of European politics at the time and particularly the appeasement of Hitler.

Of course there were certainly elements of the British establishment that considered the Nationalists, and fascism in general, to be preferable to the Republic and socialism. AFAIK however these views were never articulated at the highest levels of government.


Originally posted by [email protected]
I don't know about the involvement of London or even Stalin personally in the POUM's supression, but denying that there was a conspiracy to supress the POUM would most certainly be absurd.There was no "shadowy conspiracy" towards crushing the POUM; they simply fell foul of Moscow and the PCE in the course of events. There is no need to whip up fanciful theories and conspiracies involving British and Soviet collusion to explain this.


Conghaileach
I can't remember where but a while ago I read that British warships prevented weapons shipments from Mexico from reaching the Republican government.Mexico did send a very large shipment of arms to the Republic (AFAIK 150,000 rifles), they were the only nation other than the USSR to do so, but other nations abided by the non-intervention agreement. This was enforced by a British blockade which in practice, if not theory, strongly favoured the Nationalists.

[syndicat]

Om:
This is not true of the Royal Navy though whose officers were, naturally, inclined to sympathise with the Nationalist cause. They would have been fully aware of the fate of officers in the Russian Imperial Navy of 1917. There was a decided bias amongst these British officers in enforcing the blockade - which, lest we forget, led to RN flotillas maintaining position off the coast for the duration of the war - while Gibraltar was used to supply both ammunition and information to the Nationalists. I've yet to see anything to suggest that this was anything but the initiative of the officers themselves.

This gives a misleading impression. In reality the British elite were highly sympathetic to fascism. that's why Stalin's idea of an alliance with the "western democracies" against Hitler was quite unrealistic. the British elite was more fearful of communism than of fascism.

The Royal Navy did intervene directly to help the fascists, and this was covered up at the very highest levels, at the level of the Admiralty in London, who lied to parliament.

For example, when the fascist Spanish army besieged the town of Algeciras, on the coast near Gibraltar, the warships of the Spanish navy, which were controlled by the sailors, tried to aid the defenders of the town by turning their heavy guns on the Spanish army. the Royal Navy prevented this by positioning British warships between the Spanish ships and the town of Algeciras. This is discussed by British military historian Gerald Howson in "Arms for Spain." As Howson points out, the officers of the Royal Navy were bluebloods just like their counterparts in the Spanish navy. at the outset of the Spanish civil war, the Spanish sailors -- who hated their officers -- organized ship committees and seized control of the ships, arresting or shooting their officers. 70% of the officers of the Spanish navy were executed by the sailors. as Howson put it: "British officers were horrified by the sight of warships run by unkempt low-rank sailors exchanging clenched fist salutes."

however, i don't think it likely the Brits would have intervened in Spain because that would have involved them in a land war on the continent, which would be quite risky, and lead to deaths of British soldiers. the Brits were still running a world-wide empire and were stretched pretty thin.

[syndicat]

Om:
There was no "shadowy conspiracy" towards crushing the POUM; they simply fell foul of Moscow and the PCE in the course of events. There is no need to whip up fanciful theories and conspiracies involving British and Soviet collusion to explain this.

I suppose it depends on what you mean by a "conspiracy." The PCE did try to cover up its work at repression against its enemies on the left. The PCE had secret "chekas" -- the name for secret prisons for political repression in the Spanish civil war -- even before the government of Negrin authorized them to do so in 1937. for example, in Mar 1937 Rodriguez, the anarchist head of the Spanish prison system, made public the discovery of a secret Communist prison where the nephew of a leader of the Socialist Party, and other Left Socialists, were being held and tortured. This led the Caballero government to dissolve the Communist-controlled Madrid Defense Junta -- the only government entity controlled by the Communists prior to May 1937.

After May 1937, Negrin authorized the Communists to set up a political police called the SIM (Military Intelligence Service). A lot of their effort was detaining, torturing and murdering revolutionaries. There is an eyewitness account of this in Bill Herrick's memoir "Jumping the Line." Herrick was a member of the US Communist Party serving in the Abraham Lincoln battalion and his party boss insisted that he go with him to a SIM prison, where Herrick witnessed the execution of a number of young revolutionaries. One girl shouted "Viva la revolucion" just before a SIM thug shot a bullet thru her brain.

Negrin was a wealthy social-democrat who sympathized with the Communists. he was willing to turn a blind eye to the CPE's shenanigans. and he was quite happy to ban the POUM at the PCE's insistence, and allow the PCE to go about rounding up and killing POUM members.



QUOTE (Conghaileach)
I can't remember where but a while ago I read that British warships prevented weapons shipments from Mexico from reaching the Republican government.
Mexico did send a very large shipment of arms to the Republic (AFAIK 150,000 rifles), they were the only nation other than the USSR to do so, but other nations abided by the non-intervention agreement. This was enforced by a British blockade which in practice, if not theory, strongly favoured the Nationalists.

No country, with the possible exception of Mexico, GAVE any weapons to the Spanish anti-fascists. A number of countries did SELL weapons to them, at highly inflated prices, cheating them right and left. This included both Poland and the USSR. This is described in detail in Gerald Howson's book "Arms for Spain."