Drugs and Communism - Would they be legal?

[ndppinko]

Would softer drugs (ie marijuana) be legal in a communist country? Would it be universal among all nations, or would it be the decision of each individual nation? Did Marx say anything about drugs? Did Lenin? Trotsky? Stalin? Castro? Che? Anybody?

[Blibblob]

Depends on the drug man, not all drugs are equal. Most drugs are quite stupid, heroin, speed, coke. Ones that are quite lethal should, in my opion, be illegal. But almost harmless recreational drugs like weed and some tobacco. No ciggaretts, thats stupid, you don't get anything out of them but a black lung. At least cigars smell and taste good.

[Anonymous]

if either drugs would be or wouldnt be legal in communist society is stupid to discuss...

one knows almost nothing about what the ultimate communist society..

acording to Marx it was anarchy ("Anarchy is Communism last stage") therefore drugs would be legal...

we are light years away from communism...
we must first embrace a world wide socialist program...
then pass the dictatorship of the proletariat etc etc etc..

but to clear, the communist society would be as free as possible..
since it would be almost like a remake ofthe primitive communism...

[redstar2000]

To the best of my knowledge, none of the "big names" in the history of communism ever expressed an opinion on the matter of drugs...in their times, it wasn't really an issue.

Marx and Engels were both smokers and Engels liked fine wines. Lenin and Trotsky were non-smokers; Stalin enjoyed a pipe as well as his vodka. Mao smoked 4 packs of camels a day (it is said), while both Fidel and Che (despite his asthma) liked cigars.

There has always been a deeply puritanical strain within the communist movement...the view that any sort of physical/chemical pleasure was, in some vague sense, a "betrayal" of the "cause". This is perhaps a surviving residue of the fact that the modern working class movement originated in the Victorian era...and "picked up" many of the puritanical absurdities of that period.

They are anachronisms now, of course...about as relevant as Victorian moustache combs and wax. But some people's heads are firmly stuck in the late 19th or early 20th century...and they will repeat those ancient bromides without regard for either accuracy or utility.

One of the first things a 21st century communist revolution in an advanced capitalist country would do is issue a general amnesty for all chemical prisoners. The old bourgeois laws that regulated/restricted/punished the use of all pleasurable chemicals would be declared null and void.

There are various alternative paths that could be followed after that; but all of them would share the goal of making chemical pleasures readily and inexpensively available without letting anyone make a profit from them.

At the same time, of course, information on the positive and negative effects of each drug would be available on each package...insofar as these effects have actually been determined. Risks would be quantified in real numbers...not meaningless and deliberately "scary" ratios.

And no one would ever go to prison again for using the "wrong" drug.

:cool:

[truthaddict11]

what about drugs used for criminal acts such as the "date rape" drug? should someone be punished for the use of these or does using that term make it that any drug could be used for "criminal intent" ?

[RedComrade]

Shit No! Marx was very much against any opiate that would dull the masses senses, no religion and sure as heck no drugs!

[Dhul Fiqar]

I love how people assume EVERYONE is a potential heroin addict. The only reason your grandparents aren't fucked up on PCP right now is because they don't want to go to jail, right?

Come on, "the masses" are not suddenly going to turn into heroin addicts, just because it's no longer actually illegal to stick a needle into your arm and pump yourself full of smack.

Furthermore, if there was an intelligent debate and rational policy by the government, such as the excellent example RedStar2000 suggested, it is most likely that demand would drop from current levels, or at the very least stabilize at a similar % of the population as before.

I sincerely doubt that the reason people aren't totally fucked up on hard drugs all day is the legality of it, after all it's not like everyone drinks a bottle of vodka before going to work. It's legal, though, right?

--- G.



(Edited by Dhul Fiqar at 7:34 pm on April 10, 2003)

[Dhul Fiqar]

Quote: from truthaddict11 on 10:27 am on April 10, 2003
what about drugs used for criminal acts such as the "date rape" drug? should someone be punished for the use of these or does using that term make it that any drug could be used for "criminal intent" ?


Well, of course rape would be illegal, thus using drugs to rape would also be illegal.

There is no such thing as a "date rape drug", but there are literally hundreds if not thousands of legitimate medicines that can be used to incapacitate, and thus rape. You can't very well make all medication that makes you drowsy illegal, so I suspect only the actual act of using them for such evil purposes would be illegal.

--- G.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

No one has the right to impose restrictions upon anyone else, including in the instance of rape. Many drugs can be used as a "rape-drug", I suppose.

I fully agree with redstar on this one.

[redstar2000]

Red Comrade, we can all speculate about what Marx might have said on the issue of drugs...as far as I know, he said nothing.

Indeed, his remark about religion being the "opiate of the masses" at least suggests that he thought religion to be far worse than the drugs available in his day (cheap gin was actually the "mass" drug of that era).

But even if diligent research could produce a quote from Marx--"Put down that needle, kid, it's counter-revolutionary"--it would still be only a reflection of the Victorian prejudices of that time.

We are not "bound" or "limited" by everything Marx said (or might have said)...we're just "bound" by the things he said that were true.

:cool:

PS: secretly administering a drug to another person without their consent should be a serious crime in and of itself. It's not the drug that's at fault, it's the asshole.

(Edited by redstar2000 at 11:46 am on April 10, 2003)

[Comrade Otaku]

All drugs are equal, but some are more equal than others.

I think that they would allow the lesser drugs, e.g tobacco, Alcohol, Marijuana but not the more potent, dangerous drugs e.g Ecstacy, LSD, Heroin etc.

[Uhuru na Umoja]

I think the role of laws in supressing drug use is often exaggerated. Living in Tanzania where the law is determined by your ability to pay bribes (rought 10 dollars US or 10 Euros will get you out of most crimes), I and my friends never worry about the police. We can do whatever drugs we want whenever we want. Yet only two of my friends have tried coke, and none LSD, ecstacy, heroin or other heavy drugs - we just stick to weed and beer. Laws don't stop us, knowledge of the effects of these drugs do so. Overall my school here has far less of a drug problem than any of the schools I know of in Canada or the UK, even though the law does not inhibit us.

(Edited by Uhuru na Umoja at 7:03 pm on April 10, 2003)

[Umoja]

You live in Tanzania? Where do you go to school? I'd half joked about going the the University of Dar, but you know "Bongoland" better so where do you go to school?

[Dhul Fiqar]

Not sure how practical it owuld be to ban LSD if mushrooms were legal (since they grow everywhere they'd have to be, no?). They're very similar drugs, in some cases shrooms are more "dangerous" in a relative sense (neither are really physically dangerous).

--- G.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Quote: from Dhul Fiqar on 5:12 pm on April 11, 2003
Not sure how practical it owuld be to ban LSD if mushrooms were legal (since they grow everywhere they'd have to be, no?). They're very similar drugs, in some cases shrooms are more "dangerous" in a relative sense (neither are really physically dangerous).

--- G.

marijuana is also very easily grown.

[Dhul Fiqar]

What does that have to do with anything? Marijuana would obviously be legal anyway in such a hypothetical situation where we'd be discussing legalization of LSD...

--- G.

[redstar2000]

Comrade Otaku, I think it would be a serious mistake to replicate the situation we have now; i.e., certain drugs legal and certain drugs illegal.

All drugs can be dangerous in certain dosages and under certain cirumstances. But any drug that is illegal is more dangerous because of its illegality alone...illegal drugs are rarely prepared or packaged in pharmaceutical quality; you never know exactly what you are getting. That unknown makes any illegal drug more dangerous than it otherwise would be.

Beyond that, of course, are the devastating consequences for any society that makes drugs illegal. The prison population of the United States has just crossed the 2,000,000 mark with no end in sight.

It seems to me that chemical prisoners are political prisoners. That is, they are in prison for refusing to conform to the same neo-puritanical religious fundamentalism that reinforces the imperial drive of the American capitalist class. "God is with us!" on the plains of Iraq and in the streets of our cities.

The most I think we could reasonably do is make it somewhat more of a hassle to purchase the "heavier" drugs...so that only the people who really want them will actually buy them. A 24-hour waiting period between ordering and pick-up/delivery might help.

But once you try to abolish the use of any drug by police power, you have opened not a can of worms but a chamber of horrors.

Let's not do that.

:cool:

[Pete]

My opinion would be with Redstar. They would not be illegal.

[Lefty]

The way I see it is that even if they were illegal, people would still find a way to get them, so legalize them, but don't encourage it. I realize that using the same logic you should be able to legalize murder, but it just seems to me that legalizing drugs wouldnt really hurt the society that much.

[hazard]

the answer to that question is simple

it all depends upon the revolutionary leaders. for instance, if the commuist movement in the US of the sixties and early seventies succeeded in subverting the capitalist rule, you could almost guarantee the legalization of drugs. as a matter of fact, the drug culture and music scene are still influenced by this group almost fifty years later. not just in sound, as far as music goes, but in lyrics too.