What would you consider Nazi's?

[EwokUtopia]

I was just thinking while watching a documentary called Hitler's search for the Holy Grail (http://www.dailymotion.com/related/3902305/video/x2bmmv_hitlers-search-for-the-holy-grail-1/1) that the Nazi's werent really fascists. They are something else, something much more horrifying. Their similarities with fascists are undoubtably there, but there are many more underlying factors that make them quite different. Namely:

Mysticism- The Nazi's wanted to create, and most likely believed themselves, that they had ancient links to a racial past that they believed they had to secure. for instance, the Swastika achieved a cult status that the fasces never came close to achieving.

Extreme racism- The Nazi racism was more severe than any other form of racism in the past. next to it, Mussolini's Italy and Franco's Spain were comparitavely unconcerned with race.

Genocide- No other fascist state has actally attempted to wipe out any race, they are usually mostly concerned with rigourous enforcement of hierarchical orders and suppression of political rivals, not extermination.

There are many more, I am merely stating the obvious differences between Fascism and Nazism, but given these differences, is it right to label them as fascists? I think that in a way it takes away from how dangerous Nazism is. Next to it, fascism is cute and cuddly. I can think of no other group quite like the nazi's, save perhaps the KKK in the US, but they never achieved state power, so its hard to classify the Nazi's, but I do think that out of all the horrible regimes in the past, they stand out as something particularly grotesque and inhuman. It is a compliment to call a nazi a fascist. Next to the Nazi's, Mussolini, Franco, Pinochet, Suharto, and a whole slew of other fascist or quasi-fascist dictators are simple reactionary thugs, not like the monsters that were the nazi's.

What does everyone think on this?

[Dimentio]

You are actually corrected. The original fascists in Italy were statists, while fascists in most other countries have been christian fascists. The nazis were a fascist movement, but in the same relation to fascism as evangelicalism is to conservatism. For fascists, the state is the collective ideal, while for the nazis, the volk is the collective ideal.

Mussolini's Italy was your ordinary, everyday dictatorship. Hitler's Germany was more than that. For while Hitler being ruthless, the people still in large supported him, and he would probably have managed to be reelected again and again.

Nazism was a movement, which had a vision of doom, and it was the logical conclusion of the imperialist, jingoist and nationalist ideologies of the 19th century. The bourgeoisie had lost control over it's own creation.

[The Advent of Anarchy]

The purely origional fascist movement actually supported a bourgeois democratic state, with universal suffrage and a republican government. It died off, and Mussolini turned it into what it is today. Tyrannical.

[Janus]

Nazism certainly isn't fascism in the classical sense but it is considered to be an offshoot of it in that it retained many elements of fascism but placed much more emphasis on race issues.

[EwokUtopia]

Not just the race issues, but the sheer mysticism of it all. Ive never heard of a political party that was on the verge of creating a religion around itself, as well as its racist beliefs. Its the mysticism that is really disturbing. The fire marches and the prayer to Hitler:

Führer, mein Führer, von Gott mir gegeben, beschütz und erhalte noch lange mein Leben
Du hast Deutschland errettet aus tiefster Not, Dir verdank ich mein tägliches Brot
Führer, mein Führer, mein Glaube, mein Licht
Führer mein Führer, verlasse mich nicht

This translates roughly as:

Leader, my Leader, given to me by God, protect me and sustain my life for a long time
you have rescued Germany out of deepest misery, to you I owe my daily bread
Leader, my Leader, my belief, my light
Leader my Leader, do not abandon me



I dont even think good old Kim Il Jong gets prayers.

In regular fascism, the leader is just some usually charismatic military dictator. This is far more disturbing.

[metalero]

I think the early national socialism was escentially a fascist movement, consisting in mobilizing the petty buorgueise based on fear and hate mongering to attack the conscious upsurge of workers. Later it agrouped many elements, such as mysticism and a lot of pseudo scientific crap, and of course, the big capital.

[Random Precision]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 11:50 pm
The purely origional fascist movement actually supported a bourgeois democratic state, with universal suffrage and a republican government. It died off, and Mussolini turned it into what it is today. Tyrannical.
Excuse me, but Mussolini founded the "purely original fascist movement", and from the outset it was nationalist, totalitarian, militarist and virulently anti-any variety of leftism. I never thought that I'd see an apoligist for fascism on this site, either.

[Die Neue Zeit]

To be blunt, ordinary fascism and Nazism do share to some extent racial ideologies. Mussolini wanted to revive the old Roman Empire (hence his treatment of Ethiopians).

It was only in Spain where fascism didn't have a racial ideology whatsoever.

As the OP pointed out, it is the mysticism that truly separates the two - but I'll also add a bit of class, too.

See, in most fascist movements, there's the tendency to favour the big capitalists and the middle managers. In Nazism, the ideal was the PEASANTRY (which went hand in hand with Nazi mysticism)!

[bezdomni]

It was only in Spain where fascism didn't have a racial ideology whatsoever.

Perhaps the ideology was not explicitly racial, but ethnic minorities (basques and jews for example) were certainly not the most popular people with Franco.

[Faux Real]

Nazi Germ was an aberration of fascism. Fascism is an aberration of capitalism in its decline. So, in essence Nazi Germ was as reactionary and repressive as it could have gotten in those days. Through public fear of Spartacus-influenced communist revolution they got plenty of support and let Hitler do whatever the hell he pleased. I don't think all of his followers agreed with him on things. Thankfully (not good enough by any stretch of the imagination though) some original supporters tried assassinating Hitler and planning coups which is better than nothing. I also read somewhere that after assassinating him and surrendering the war, the middle class would have opted to keep the fascist govt in power but with more moderation. I guess what we got was the best case scenario as they eventually were toppled. But it's a capitalist hegemony again so...yeah.

I glanced through some articles on Nazi space projects and some odd structures around Poland that could have been used for hover crafts, but I don't know if they're credible or not. Don't know much about the mysticism though, other than Hitler could have flown to the south pole with bases under the crust, finishing off some polar bear nuclear program and all that conspiracy b.s.

[EwokUtopia]

It just seems to me that fascism is merely extreme reactionary militarism. Nazism deffinately is that, but with a huge wave of mass insanity. You could say that Nazism is fascism that forgot to take its Prozac, but this insanity that goes along with it makes it so much different, and no other fascist party that came to power has ever had it.

There are many in the Neo-Nazi circle who have it, but they dont have power. For instance, there is a group of people who believe that during WWII, UFO's visited the third reich, and crashed, giving the Nazi's that technology, and after the war, the Nazi's (including Hitler) retreated to their bases in Antarctica and met with sub-terrainian reptiles, and that any day now, A bunch of these reptillian morlocks will arrive by UFO led by Hitler to free us all from ZOG.

Im not making this shit up, there seriously are people, perhaps thousands of them who believe this. When I was in grade school, this redneck classmate gave me a book on Secret Societies that he found at a gun show that advocated this belief, as well as frightened you with false Talmud quotations. The book is quite a laugh, I wish I still had it, but Nazi mysticism is seriously fucked up.

[Vargha Poralli]

I don't think the Nazi Mysticism so seriously. They needed everything to justify their coup in Germany and all sorts of stupidity they promoted was just an exapnsion of it.

And they were fully aware they can't fool the people with their stupidity all time. That is the reason for the WW2. That is the reason for their aggressive atrocities in War. No one in right mind would have started a war they knew they can't win and reason for Nazis to do this was because they had no other options left.

This is clearly shows the extent to which capitalists go on to break worker's movement. The whole WW2 was an desperate attempt to curb the worker's movement which gained a new strength after the Russian Revolution.

It also shows that revolutionary workers should never ever compromise with the Fascists.

[Never Give In]

Fascism's original theory is not racist. It is unjust Totalitarianism, but there is no single race being treated in the sick fashion Fascism treats all. Nazism, I think, is nothing more than Racist Fascism. It was Fascist government, but the only people who fall victim are the Jews, Communists, Socialists, Hitler's Political Opponents, etc.

[Vargha Poralli]

Originally posted by Never Give [email protected] 12, 2007 11:42 pm
Fascism's original theory is not racist. It is unjust Totalitarianism, but there is no single race being treated in the sick fashion Fascism treats all. Nazism, I think, is nothing more than Racist Fascism. It was Fascist government, but the only people who fall victim are the Jews, Communists, Socialists, Hitler's Political Opponents, etc.
It doesn't matter Fascism was racist or not. It is a movement which was originally intended to destroy the workers movements. It should be opposed regardless whether it was racist or not.

[Never Give In]

Originally posted by g.ram+July 12, 2007 02:15 pm--> (g.ram @ July 12, 2007 02:15 pm)
Never Give [email protected] 12, 2007 11:42 pm
Fascism's original theory is not racist. It is unjust Totalitarianism, but there is no single race being treated in the sick fashion Fascism treats all. Nazism, I think, is nothing more than Racist Fascism. It was Fascist government, but the only people who fall victim are the Jews, Communists, Socialists, Hitler's Political Opponents, etc.
It doesn't matter Fascism was racist or not. It is a movement which was originally intended to destroy the workers movements. It should be opposed regardless whether it was racist or not. [/b]
I did not question the necessity of Fascism's opposition. I simply implied that Nazis are indeed Fascists, the only difference is the victims of the Nazis were chosen based on the prejudice of their leader.

The beginning question of this thread was 'What would you consider Nazis?" I answered by stating that they are Racist Fascists. Perhaps you thought I was answering to something else. I will quote the question i'm answering next time if so.

[Tower of Bebel]

I think Hitler's personality was an important factor that shaped Germany's fascism. The state - the leader - decides every aspect of life, which means Hitler's personality had an important influence.

[Vargha Poralli]

Originally posted by Never Give In+July 12, 2007 11:50 pm--> (Never Give In @ July 12, 2007 11:50 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 02:15 pm

Never Give [email protected] 12, 2007 11:42 pm
Fascism's original theory is not racist. It is unjust Totalitarianism, but there is no single race being treated in the sick fashion Fascism treats all. Nazism, I think, is nothing more than Racist Fascism. It was Fascist government, but the only people who fall victim are the Jews, Communists, Socialists, Hitler's Political Opponents, etc.
It doesn't matter Fascism was racist or not. It is a movement which was originally intended to destroy the workers movements. It should be opposed regardless whether it was racist or not.
I did not question the necessity of Fascism's opposition. I simply implied that Nazis are indeed Fascists, the only difference is the victims of the Nazis were chosen based on the prejudice of their leader.

The beginning question of this thread was 'What would you consider Nazis?" I answered by stating that they are Racist Fascists. Perhaps you thought I was answering to something else. I will quote the question i'm answering next time if so. [/b]
Well I did not meant that to offend you. Many people think that Fascism is bad because it is racist. So I thought you were saying in that perspective. Sorry if I was too rude.

[Comrade_Scott]

dude i was just talking to my brother and friends about this, the simmilarites are there but i dont think they were delibrate and i think hitler just wanted an ideology to place it on so it wouldnt float

[Random Precision]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 08:52 pm
dude i was just talking to my brother and friends about this, the simmilarites are there but i dont think they were delibrate and i think hitler just wanted an ideology to place it on so it wouldnt float
Um... no. It's just a bit more complex than that.

[blazeofglory]

of all the irony, Nazi was "THE NATIONAL SOCIALIST PARTY" if i am not mistaken, or am I?

well i really dont have a word to describe something worse and more devastating and of a higher scale than fascism. The Nazi party was some mix-up of fascists, racists, murderers, rapists, genocides, homicides.... infact all the -cides

well, it hurts to state that most of my frens in Nepal think dictators like Hitler and Mussolini are "communists"...........

well Stalin was one though....



Hasta La Victoria Siempre

[The-Spark]

I believe Nazism is different from anything else by far. The Nazi party pratically made a religion, what other facist goverment accomplished that or even wanted to accomplish that?

[Never Give In]

Originally posted by g.ram+July 12, 2007 02:30 pm--> (g.ram @ July 12, 2007 02:30 pm)
Originally posted by Never Give [email protected] 12, 2007 11:50 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 02:15 pm

Never Give [email protected] 12, 2007 11:42 pm
Fascism's original theory is not racist. It is unjust Totalitarianism, but there is no single race being treated in the sick fashion Fascism treats all. Nazism, I think, is nothing more than Racist Fascism. It was Fascist government, but the only people who fall victim are the Jews, Communists, Socialists, Hitler's Political Opponents, etc.
It doesn't matter Fascism was racist or not. It is a movement which was originally intended to destroy the workers movements. It should be opposed regardless whether it was racist or not.
I did not question the necessity of Fascism's opposition. I simply implied that Nazis are indeed Fascists, the only difference is the victims of the Nazis were chosen based on the prejudice of their leader.

The beginning question of this thread was 'What would you consider Nazis?" I answered by stating that they are Racist Fascists. Perhaps you thought I was answering to something else. I will quote the question i'm answering next time if so.
Well I did not meant that to offend you. Many people think that Fascism is bad because it is racist. So I thought you were saying in that perspective. Sorry if I was too rude. [/b]
Not at all my friend.

[Never Give In]

Originally posted by The-[email protected] 12, 2007 10:25 pm
I believe Nazism is different from anything else by far. The Nazi party pratically made a religion, what other facist goverment accomplished that or even wanted to accomplish that?
Nazis did not create a religion, they attempted to destroy a few religions as well as political opponents. It was complete Fascism, the only variation was that only certain social classes, political beliefs, and religions were victimized by it. Hitler was allies with Mussolini, he used Totalitarian injustice against people, all people who spoke against the regime was punished severely. Sounds like Fascism to me.

[Never Give In]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 10:21 pm
of all the irony, Nazi was "THE NATIONAL SOCIALIST PARTY" if i am not mistaken, or am I?





Hitler used the the name Socialist to appeal to the working class of Germany, who were at the time in dire need of saving.

There is nothing Socialist about Nazism.

[Never Give In]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 05:18 pm
Mysticism- The Nazi's wanted to create, and most likely believed themselves, that they had ancient links to a racial past that they believed they had to secure. for instance, the Swastika achieved a cult status that the fasces never came close to achieving.

Extreme racism- The Nazi racism was more severe than any other form of racism in the past. next to it, Mussolini's Italy and Franco's Spain were comparitavely unconcerned with race.

Genocide- No other fascist state has actally attempted to wipe out any race, they are usually mostly concerned with rigourous enforcement of hierarchical orders and suppression of political rivals, not extermination.


The swastika acheived such a tainted status BECAUSE of the extreme racism and genocide that was promoted under the Swastika. Because Mussolini never used Racist or Genocidal tactics does not make Nazism differ much from Fascism.

Nazism is Fascism with a Racist Genocidal twist, plain and simple.

[Never Give In]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 02:22 pm
I think Hitler's personality was an important factor that shaped Germany's fascism. The state - the leader - decides every aspect of life, which means Hitler's personality had an important influence.
Of course. Because Hitler hated Jews, the Fascism of his regime crashed down hard on them. Because he hated Communists, Socialists, Trade Unionists, and others, the Fascism of his regime crashed down hard on them.

His allies and followers were not harmed because Hitler approved of them. Prejudiced Racist Fascism.

[EwokUtopia]

The Nazi's did have a few socialist elements, like having the state find employment for the unemployed as well as giving all german workers a car, which is part of the reason the Germans fell into Nazism, but the things they combined those elements with ensured that Nazism is the furthest thing from socialism available.

And they did try to create a new Nazi religion. Hitler and his thugs were those types of people who thought that it is dangerous and Bolshevist to have a non-religious nation, but at the same time he felt that Christianity was by its nature too passive and Jewish, so they tried to create a religion based around Nazism. Just look at all of the religious elements in the Nazi cult. Aside from the prayer to hitler, the Nazi's tried to promote their racism with religious zeal. Loyalty and bravery were seen as the highest ideals, and they did have vague notions of Walhalla and all that paganist stuff, though hitler did not want a return to Germanic paganism. They wanted a religion based around the Volk and Leader. If they won the war, we'd all have grown up in this religion, and it would be a very fucked up world indeed.

[Never Give In]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 11:55 pm
The Nazi's did have a few socialist elements, like having the state find employment for the unemployed as well as giving all german workers a car, which is part of the reason the Germans fell into Nazism, but the things they combined those elements with ensured that Nazism is the furthest thing from socialism available.

And they did try to create a new Nazi religion. Hitler and his thugs were those types of people who thought that it is dangerous and Bolshevist to have a non-religious nation, but at the same time he felt that Christianity was by its nature too passive and Jewish, so they tried to create a religion based around Nazism. Just look at all of the religious elements in the Nazi cult. Aside from the prayer to hitler, the Nazi's tried to promote their racism with religious zeal. Loyalty and bravery were seen as the highest ideals, and they did have vague notions of Walhalla and all that paganist stuff, though hitler did not want a return to Germanic paganism. They wanted a religion based around the Volk and Leader. If they won the war, we'd all have grown up in this religion, and it would be a very fucked up world indeed.
Hm, that's interesting. No religion was ever established, therefore I assumed Hitler was just trying to destroy other Religions for Political gain. I thought the prayer was just insane loyalty.

[EwokUtopia]

The Occult History of the Nazi's (http://www.spikedhumor.com/articles/27292/The_Occult_History_of_the_Third_Reich_1_of_4.html)

Not sure why its on Spiked Humour, it is a serious doc, give it a check

[Vargha Poralli]

Originally posted by EwokUtopia
The Nazi's did have a few socialist elements, like having the state find employment for the unemployed as well as giving all german workers a car, which is part of the reason the Germans fell into Nazism, but the things they combined those elements with ensured that Nazism is the furthest thing from socialism available.

Well again you are in mistake. German workers never fell to Nazism. In fact Hitler was never voted to power. In 1933 elections even even after allowing only Nazis and Capitalist parties to campaign they couldn't get a Majority. Even the plularity they got in elections is due to sectarian conflict of the SPD and Comintern influenced KPD.

A chronology of these events with links to writings of Trotsky at those times. (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/germany/index.htm)

[Vargha Poralli]

Originally posted by Never Give [email protected] 13, 2007 08:49 am
Because Mussolini never used Racist or Genocidal tactics does not make Nazism differ much from Fascism.

Nazism is Fascism with a Racist Genocidal twist, plain and simple.
Well Italiam fascismm did use Racists oppression in Ethiopia Source. (http://www.marxists.org/archive/pankhurst-richard/2007/03/x01.htm)

[EwokUtopia]

Originally posted by g.ram+July 13, 2007 04:15 am--> (g.ram @ July 13, 2007 04:15 am)
EwokUtopia
The Nazi's did have a few socialist elements, like having the state find employment for the unemployed as well as giving all german workers a car, which is part of the reason the Germans fell into Nazism, but the things they combined those elements with ensured that Nazism is the furthest thing from socialism available.

Well again you are in mistake. German workers never fell to Nazism. In fact Hitler was never voted to power. In 1933 elections even even after allowing only Nazis and Capitalist parties to campaign they couldn't get a Majority. Even the plularity they got in elections is due to sectarian conflict of the SPD and Comintern influenced KPD.

A chronology of these events with links to writings of Trotsky at those times. (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/germany/index.htm) [/b]
The Nazi party had an unprecedented approval rating in the pre-war era, and up untill the final stages of the war, which Trotsky never saw.

Even if they didnt support it, they did almost diddly-squat to stop it once it took place, thereby falling into Nazism.


Anyway, they were far more than just racist. I think that their devotion to the racial ideals is so extreme, it is hard to even classify it. Hating or looking down upon people for their skin colour is one thing. Deporting them from a nation or forcing them into extreme restrictions is much worse, but is still racism. Building factories to exterminate race's and carrying it out with such fanatic zeal is beyond humanity. Again, this has to do with their racial and national cults, as well as the mass insanity nazism seems to carry. It is something completely unprecidented.

[Vargha Poralli]

Originally posted by EwokUtopia+July 13, 2007 09:52 am--> (EwokUtopia @ July 13, 2007 09:52 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 04:15 am

EwokUtopia
The Nazi's did have a few socialist elements, like having the state find employment for the unemployed as well as giving all german workers a car, which is part of the reason the Germans fell into Nazism, but the things they combined those elements with ensured that Nazism is the furthest thing from socialism available.

Well again you are in mistake. German workers never fell to Nazism. In fact Hitler was never voted to power. In 1933 elections even even after allowing only Nazis and Capitalist parties to campaign they couldn't get a Majority. Even the plularity they got in elections is due to sectarian conflict of the SPD and Comintern influenced KPD.

A chronology of these events with links to writings of Trotsky at those times. (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/germany/index.htm)
The Nazi party had an unprecedented approval rating in the pre-war era, and up untill the final stages of the war, which Trotsky never saw.

Even if they didnt support it, they did almost diddly-squat to stop it once it took place, thereby falling into Nazism.[/b]
Well I see it differently. Those approval ratings are not satisfaction with the Nazi regime but were voted because of fear and intimation of them. Of course you can't be sure if a no vote could have made you a victim of Euthanasia program.

[EwokUtopia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 04:27 am
Well I see it differently. Those approval ratings are not satisfaction with the Nazi regime but were voted because of fear and intimation of them. Of course you can't be sure if a no vote could have made you a victim of Euthanasia program.
Then if they hated the Nazi's so much, where was the resistance? Even when the Soviets were miles away, I do not know of much partisan activity on the part of the German people.

Why did they do so little to stop it, while people in all other countries occupied by the nazi's had large and effective resistance movements?

I think that it is because:

1-The Germans had no clue as to the full nature of the Nazi Brutality. They never saw concentration camps nor did they hear about the German attrocities on the East Front.

2-They were lulled into complaicency by the improved economy, as well as those psuedosocialist elements

3-The Nazi Propaganda machine was more powerful than any other media system humanity has ever known. They were masters of memes before they were masters of murder. The people were brainwashed about as much as someone who watches 8 hours of FOX a day

(yes, I believe I just pulled a reverse Godwin)

[Vargha Poralli]

Originally posted by EwokUtopia+July 13, 2007 10:08 am--> (EwokUtopia @ July 13, 2007 10:08 am)
[email protected] 13, 2007 04:27 am
Well I see it differently. Those approval ratings are not satisfaction with the Nazi regime but were voted because of fear and intimation of them. Of course you can't be sure if a no vote could have made you a victim of Euthanasia program.
Then if they hated the Nazi's so much, where was the resistance? Even when the Soviets were miles away, I do not know of much partisan activity on the part of the German people.



[/b]

Then if they hated the Nazi's so much, where was the resistance? Even when the Soviets were miles away, I do not know of much partisan activity on the part of the German people.

Well again I see it as fear of intimation.

Before WW2 the Nazi Propaganda was complimented by brutalities which preshadowed holocaust.

First hit was against the KPD. After the reichstag fire SPD. Then the Night of Long Knives against SA which compromised mostly of men from Working Class background unlike SS which had men from middle class background. And finally T4. All these things before war in 7 years is not a simple thing at all. It did had a very intimating fear on Germans. And also add that the majority of German Jews emigrated to other countries which the German themselves can't.

Even with all these atrocities and propaganda Nazis could not fool the people for too long. That is why they dragged them in to war. And by making historic blunders(who would ever think of Invading a USSR without securing the western front. And who in right mind would have ever imagined that they could capture and colonise Soviet union in 6 months) they drove Germans along with themselves to the defeat.


Why did they do so little to stop it, while people in all other countries occupied by the nazi's had large and effective resistance movements?

Ultimately and unfortunately the war tied the Germans very much with Nazi War Machine. Now they seen as aggressors in both west and east. So they lost the final straw to oppose Nazis.

[EwokUtopia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 04:54 am
Well again I see it as fear of intimation...


Why did they do so little to stop it, while people in all other countries occupied by the nazi's had large and effective resistance movements?

Ultimately and unfortunately the war tied the Germans very much with Nazi War Machine. Now they seen as aggressors in both west and east. So they lost the final straw to oppose Nazis.
certainly intimidation is a factor, but it could not be the single cause of not resisting. The Germans had it comparitavely easy under the Germans, and considering that the Italian people rose up pretty well as soon as Italy was invaded by the Allies, or even the Ukrainians rose against Stalin (judging from your picture, I think that you'll agree that Stalin was just as indimidating as Hitler when it comes to shoving beliefs down peoples throats [and remember, we are talking about the German people, who Hitler was least intimidating to]), so intimidation does not prevent rebellions. Of course it must have been a large factor, but there was a mass current of support and insanity in germany at the time. Nazism is like a virus, it spreads through the power of memes. The internet makes it airborn, look at how we are outnumbered on the net by Stormfront. Thank the sky-fairy we have the real world to back us up.

Have you seen much nazi propaganda? Its scary, its extremely powerful, and Id hate to be a frustrated, pissed off, and confused German youth in the 1930's. It attacked the youth in a Germany who lost half the older generation. Hitler forced his way into fatherhood for the fatherless masses.

They had massive amounts of support. We need to understand why they were able to get it, and how this disease can be stopped at all costs.

[Vargha Poralli]

Originally posted by EwokUtopia+July 13, 2007 10:46 am--> (EwokUtopia @ July 13, 2007 10:46 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 04:54 am
Well again I see it as fear of intimation...


Why did they do so little to stop it, while people in all other countries occupied by the nazi's had large and effective resistance movements?

Ultimately and unfortunately the war tied the Germans very much with Nazi War Machine. Now they seen as aggressors in both west and east. So they lost the final straw to oppose Nazis.
certainly intimidation is a factor, but it could not be the single cause of not resisting. The Germans had it comparitavely easy under the Germans, and considering that the Italian people rose up pretty well as soon as Italy was invaded by the Allies, or even the Ukrainians rose against Stalin (judging from your picture, I think that you'll agree that Stalin was just as indimidating as Hitler when it comes to shoving beliefs down peoples throats [and remember, we are talking about the German people, who Hitler was least intimidating to]), so intimidation does not prevent rebellions. Of course it must have been a large factor, but there was a mass current of support and insanity in germany at the time. Nazism is like a virus, it spreads through the power of memes. The internet makes it airborn, look at how we are outnumbered on the net by Stormfront. Thank the sky-fairy we have the real world to back us up.

Have you seen much nazi propaganda? Its scary, its extremely powerful, and Id hate to be a frustrated, pissed off, and confused German youth in the 1930's. It attacked the youth in a Germany who lost half the older generation. Hitler forced his way into fatherhood for the fatherless masses.

They had massive amounts of support. We need to understand why they were able to get it, and how this disease can be stopped at all costs.[/b]
Well you put Ideas before the material conditions.

The intimation of German Working class by the Nazis did not end with it. The propaganda power of the Nazis was complemented by it.

Even that could not have prevented the German workers from rising up against the Nazis. All their economic problems have never solved and it would have been a matter of time before they rose up against their brutal rulers.

That is the reason that nazi's were so desperately looking for a war. That is the reason Hitler dismissed Ludwig Beck from the post of Army Chief as he opposed any war of conquest as he thought Germany could never sustain another war at that time, abolished ministry of war to be replaced with OKW under his direct command.Gave go ahead to Molotov Ribbentrop pact with his arch nemesis Stalin etc. Bombed London to intimate the British and invaded Soviet Union. All these acts were made with wishfull thinking as Germany never had the necessary resources for a prolonged war.

And the allies were not saints either.British,French and American imperialists initially considered the Nazi's to be a bulwark against the Soviet Union. They started to oppose them only when the German tanks and Bombers started attcking their cities.

They had their own interest to defend. The bombing of Dresden and Hamburg was to intimate the German workers not to rise against both Hitler and Themselves. Soviets were no saints either - just look at their actions during the Warsaw Uprising.

WW2 had biggest objective in the interests for the Bourgeoisie - the need for new Markets just like the WW1. But unfortunately unlike the WW1 there were no revolutionary movemnst to turn it into a class war like the Bolsheviks and the Spartacusbund. The overall losers in WW2 were the working class of all nations - whose backbone was crushed in the due course of the war both by the Axis,Allies and the Soviets.

Fascism accomplished finally in its downfall - breaking the working class movement - the bourgeoisie no more needed them.


Ewokutopia

Nazism is like a virus, it spreads through the power of memes. The internet makes it airborn, look at how we are outnumbered on the net by Stormfront. Thank the sky-fairy we have the real world to back us up.

Well you are again doing the mistake of giving too much importance to ideas. Yes Stormfront may outnumber us in the internet - that is utmost thing ideas can do.

The real reason that they are not much influence in the real world is that the material condiitons are not worse for them to gain power. And the world is not static - another stock market crash like the great depression - we can see considerable rise of influence of Fascism in the real world.


They had massive amounts of support.

Well I had to contest that - did you check the Trotsky page I gave. Even with the bickering between the SPD and KPD Nazis could not get more votes than boht of them. Even in 1933 after being the only party to have propaganda rights they can't get a majority. Hitler had to orchestrate Reichstag fire to finally break both the Social Democrats and the Communists.



We need to understand why they were able to get it, and how this disease can be stopped at all costs.


To stop them at all costs we need a revoltuionary movement. A movement which to channelise the anger of workers against the real enemies of them - the Bourgeoisie.

[hajduk]

The bussines people always try to find someone to confront.So when they make communism that means they must make something which is opposite to communism and that was fascism.There is no mistical stuff in that just bussines.

[Random Precision]

I see that the relation of Nazi propaganda to socialism has come up. That's an interesting issue, since Hitler saw at least once the Social Democrats in action in Vienna, and was inspired by the oration and organization, even if he found their policy disgusting.

Hitler's oratory style clearly burrowed a lot from left-wing orators of the day such as Eisner, for example he would take a similar anti-capitalist stance to his opponents with rabble-rousing speeches against "Jewish" merchants pushing up the price of goods. His storm troopers learned a great deal from the tactics of similar left-wing organizations, as did his propaganda which occasionally burrowed from the Communist and Socialist press.

Nazism burrowed some of its most basic elements from socialism, most obviously the title "socialist", clearly intended to attract members of the working class. In many aspects, they created a hideous kind of "reverse socialism" that substituted the Volk for the Marxian proletariat and the Jews for the bourgeoisie.

[chebol]

Then if they hated the Nazi's so much, where was the resistance? Even when the Soviets were miles away, I do not know of much partisan activity on the part of the German people.

You might start by looking...

It is a very convenient myth that the Germans all went along with Nazism - either because they agreed with it, or were scared. And while these were two very real factors, the resistance in Germany gets down-played - it doesn't fit the myth (and mysticism) around Nazism that has been constructed in the West.

You might want to start with these links, although they focus on the assassinatrion attempts and putsches of the bougeoisie more than other forms of resistance.

German Resistance to the Third Reich - A Survivor's Story (http://www.mindspring.com/~july20/)
German Resistance Memorial Centre - Berlin (in German) (http://www.gdw-berlin.de/)
German Resistance Memorial Centre - Berlin (English) (http://www.gdw-berlin.de/index-e.php)
German Resistance (wikipedia) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Resistance)
US Holocaust Memorial Museum - German Resistance to Hitler (http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005208)
The Fight For Freedom - the story of the german resistance to hitler (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/1148/july.html)
A bibliography of further reading if you are interested (http://members.aol.com/baronvanc/wsitebib.htm)

It's also worth mentioning that a large part of any possible broader resistance leadership were quickly placed in concentration camps of killed.