the taboo around abortion

[TC]

The claim that abortion causes 'mental trauma' in women, or that it is 'not a decision that anyone makes lightly', are frequently repeated in the media. This is bullshit rhetoric that attempts to shame women for having abortions and confine it to a taboo subject matter that is difficult to discuss casually. It also creates an expectation that if you don't feel bad, if you correctly consider it not a big deal, an easy solution to a problem, then you're not taking an appropriate response.

Likewise, it is nothing but political cowardice to claim that abortion must be legal simply for utilitarian reasons, because if it were illegal people would have backally abortions anyways.

Whats really disturbing is the extent that people on revleft, even while claiming to be "pro-choice" often adopt these oppressive, patronizing anti-choice myths.


I'm posting an article from the Guardian that i thought was really really excellent and had great analysis of these two anti-choice lines:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Friday October 27, 2006
The Guardian

Zoe Williams


Time to speak up


It's 39 years since abortion was legalised in this country, yet these days it's rarely discussed without mention of 'shame', 'mental trauma' or 'viability'. With pro-lifers dominating the debate, and even leftwingers describing abortion as a 'necessary evil', women's hard-won rights could soon be under threat. In an introduction to an eight-page special, Zoe Williams asks: are we just going to roll over?

...


I remember the first time that I wrote about having had an abortion; it was in the mid-90s (the abortion, I mean. And the article, too). A survey had come out saying that one in four women had had availed themselves of termination services; I was surprised by how low that figure was, but it also made me think: if 25% of women have had abortions, then surely every one of us, male and female, has a friend or partner or family member, someone very close anyhow, who has had an abortion. Seriously, unless you are very cloistered or you are incredibly judgmental and uptight and nobody ever tells you anything, you will have been aware of an abortion at very close quarters, even if it was not your own.

So why does nobody talk about it, I pondered then, and do again now. Why are there never any abortion jokes? Why is it unthinkable to discuss it without prefacing everything with "of course, it's terribly traumatic, no woman enters into this lightly"? I found it no more traumatic than any other operation I have ever had, no more psychologically scarring, way less painful than anything involving my teeth and considerably less annoying than anything I have had done on the NHS (whose "resources" in this area - which I will complain about later - meant I had to go private, which is entirely against my principles, but did make it very convenient).

Even writing that, I am furious - it is considered a given, an unarguable tenet of modern society, that you would feel ashamed of having a termination, that you would, in some cutesy, feminine, inarticulate way, feel "bad" about it. You are not allowed to talk about this operation unless it is to say how dirty it made you feel. We are all expected to have these moral objections and yet suffer the business anyway, in the name of pragmatism. Ethically, this is a far dodgier and more repugnant position than mine, which is that I am entirely pro-abortion because I do not consider it murder; if you do not consider this foetus human, then it becomes no more of an issue than getting a tumour removed. If I have any shame at all, it is because, when my health was at stake, I immediately opted out and went private, and I would have hoped before that happened that it would have taken more than an unwanted pregnancy. Never mind. The NHS doctor made me feel that if I had stayed in the system, I would be wasting resources that rightfully belonged to poorer, younger mothers. I was 25; if I had been the age I am now, I would not have taken any notice of her.

This is worth revisiting. The prevailing attitude these days seems to be that abortion is state-sanctioned murder and we put up with it because if we didn't, women would have them in back alleys anyway. It is the lesser of two evils, therefore, and as such, must be cloaked in silence, since whichever way you look at it, it still has an evil at its core. This line has taken hold because it is the least controversial way of supporting the right: so an MP standing up and saying "Women need this right, because otherwise they will put their health at risk having illegal terminations" will not find the pro-life lobby instantly rearing up against them, petitioning their constituents with what a murderer he or she is. If, however, an MP were to stand up and say "I am pro-choice because I do not consider this to be murder. I do not consider it to be evil. I do not consider a foetus which a woman has a one in three chance of involuntarily rejecting anyway to be a viable life unless she deems it so. I do not buy this craven sentimentality about the unborn, this pseudo-spiritual cleanliness we ascribe to it. In fact, it makes me sick", then votes will be lost. In other words, there are no votes to be won supporting abortion in an ideologically honest way, and lots to be lost. The taboo started in Westminster, I believe; not everything starts in the Daily Mail.

Back to this article. I got a lot of weirdos sending me pictures of tiny bloodied babies' fingers, Photoshopped on to a pair of abortionist's rubber gloves, with captions along the lines of "Just a collection of cells? Tell that to the baby". Those were pretty lurid, but also amusingly put together. What irked me more, though, was all the traffic from the "voices of reason" saying words to the effect of "Why do you have to push everything? We all value the right to abortion, we're all glad it exists. Why on earth would you want to fight for the right to be able to joke about it? When it's not even funny?" But I was not saying abortions are, in and of themselves, hilarious. I was asking why they never crop up in jokes. Cancer does, cheese does, shagging and gonorrhoea and disabilities and dogs and flowers and terrible, terrible diseases, and all other foodstuffs, and all other genres of people ... There are taboos in political rhetoric, yes, tonnes of them, but in comedy, even in very mainstream comedy, there are almost no taboos. You could make a joke about September 11 before you could make a joke about abortion. And this is not irrelevant, it is not as if the right is inviolable, and the joking is a side issue. If you allow a taboo to hold, you leave all the cultural space open to anti-abortionists.

Ten years on, we can see the results of this. Culturally, there is an even greater silence around abortion, and an even greater refusal to discuss it except in terms of its terrible psychological toll on women. Research in both Britain and America repeatedly shows this not to be the case - that abortion, unlike bringing to term an unwanted pregnancy, does not increase the risk of depression; and furthermore, that the uptake on the compulsorily offered post-abortion counselling is staggeringly low (in some areas it is just 1%). And even she is probably just being polite.

Meanwhile there is an increasing foetus fetishisation in mainstream media - all this "miracle of life" stuff, with six-day-old embryos bouncing around, looking deliciously as if they are playing football with the placenta. It is hard to take this any more seriously than you would those pictures of baby bats in socks (non-readers of the Daily Mail will at this stage start to wonder what on earth I am on about) but, operating in this chamber of cultural silence where mature commentary about women's rights, health and beliefs vis-a-vis abortion simply is not happening, it is not a huge leap of the imagination to think that these dancing-foetus babies are jeopardising the gynaecological freedoms of the next generation.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.guardian.co.uk/women/story/0,,1932835,00.html

[NorthStarRepublicML]

Likewise, it is nothing but political cowardice to claim that abortion must be legal simply for utilitarian reasons, because if it were illegal people would have backally abortions anyways.


well since the justification that you are attempting to use to persuade persons is an op-ed piece without sources or citations it really serves as nothing more then political rhetoric, and while i may agree with many of its points it does not advance your argument .....

it is not political cowardice to take a position on abortion that deals with the material conditions of the specific situation as opposed to a position of an entirely subjective nature, i.e. "rights"

i also find it interesting that you have chosen to avoid responding in the thread titled Abortion where this very argument is still on the table and instead started this thread .... what is your angle?

i will not respond in detail here as many of these points have been addressed in previous posts located here: http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic...entry1292350712 (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=67369&hl=&showpost=1292350712&#entry1292350712)

as for the mental damage allegations i cannot comment as i have no personal experience aborting a fetus in the process of growing inside my womb ....

so while i agreed with the decision to have abortions i still find the concept of a rights based argument to be flawed because it A) is subjective according to culture, region, religion, and state and B) because a utility based argument in favor of readily available abortion on demand is irrefutable

how exactly is this political cowardice?


Whats really disturbing is the extent that people on revleft, even while claiming to be "pro-choice" often adopt these oppressive, patronizing anti-choice myths.

perhaps you should cite some examples of persons here adopting oppressive and patronizing anti-choice myths .... because this just sounds like more rhetoric and vilification ....

i'm interested in how you would say that support for safe and legal abortions on demand for reasons of utility is any more authoritarian then supporting the "rights" of one gender to hold sole control over all reproductive resources .....

how is it patronizing?

and here is the kicker: How is this position Anti-Choice?

edit:


Why are there never any abortion jokes?

tell me one and i might laugh .... but i might not for several different reasons, the truth is that everyone deals with various health concerns (and jokes) in different ways ....

the relatively few abortion jokes that are out there (i can't think of any) might also indicate that many people don't find these jokes as funny and have nothing to do with the 'mental trauma' myth that your author suggests .... especially when there are loads of jokes about other womens issues like menstruation or douching .... perhaps menstruation and douching are just funnier then abortions ....

but in all seriousness the lack of abortion jokes is of such minor importance to the issue that i felt embarrassed for the author even bringing it up (not once but twice even) .... in terms of argument it would also be nearly impossible to verify the claim that 'mental trauma' myths are to blame for the low number of abortion jokes ..... it's utterly pointless

[counterblast]

Originally posted by [email protected] 09, 2007 07:08 pm
The claim that abortion causes 'mental trauma' in women, or that it is 'not a decision that anyone makes lightly', are frequently repeated in the media. This is bullshit rhetoric that attempts to shame women for having abortions and confine it to a taboo subject matter that is difficult to discuss casually. It also creates an expectation that if you don't feel bad, if you correctly consider it not a big deal, an easy solution to a problem, then you're not taking an appropriate response.

Actually, abortion is somewhat of a contentious issue for many of those who have them, and it isn't uncommon to feel shame or to have a lingering "what if" mentality afterward. So, I don't agree with the notion that all instances of trauma are media-made. (Although the shame part is definately induced by social pressures which the media plays a major role in)

But I do agree that the media exploits such cases of guilt to portray women who have abortions as brainless victims, who fell prey to "baby murdering" liberal ideology... when nothing could be further than the truth. What the media fails to mention, is that many women who give birth go through these very same behaviors. In both cases, these women are merely expressing natural coping behaviors humans use to deal with drastic (or seemingly drastic) life changes.

This behavior isn't limited to pregnant women, either. It can be observed in everyone from men going through a "middle-age crisis", to adoptive children learning of their paternal parents.

[counterblast]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 06:29 am
it is not political cowardice to take a position on abortion that deals with the material conditions of the specific situation as opposed to a position of an entirely subjective nature, i.e. "rights"

i also find it interesting that you have chosen to avoid responding in the thread titled Abortion where this very argument is still on the table and instead started this thread .... what is your angle?



i'm interested in how you would say that support for safe and legal abortions on demand for reasons of utility is any more authoritarian then supporting the "rights" of one gender to hold sole control over all reproductive resources .....

how is it patronizing?

and here is the kicker: How is this position Anti-Choice?

edit:


Why are there never any abortion jokes?

tell me one and i might laugh .... but i might not for several different reasons, the truth is that everyone deals with various health concerns (and jokes) in different ways ....

the relatively few abortion jokes that are out there (i can't think of any) might also indicate that many people don't find these jokes as funny and have nothing to do with the 'mental trauma' myth that your author suggests .... especially when there are loads of jokes about other womens issues like menstruation or douching .... perhaps menstruation and douching are just funnier then abortions ....

but in all seriousness the lack of abortion jokes is of such minor importance to the issue that i felt embarrassed for the author even bringing it up (not once but twice even) .... in terms of argument it would also be nearly impossible to verify the claim that 'mental trauma' myths are to blame for the low number of abortion jokes ..... it's utterly pointless
I believe what TragicClown was implying, was that the "back alley" analogy is anti-choice because it resorts to compromise.

It's similar to saying; "If you outlaw penicillin, we will resort to creating it in our basements, and that would be horrible!", rather than "We will not allow you outlaw penicillin because it is vital to the survival and well-being of many individuals."

The former statement is a request that relies on the sympathy of the oppressor to keep it legal; while the former statement is a command that refuses to make (even hypothetical) negotiation on human life or well-being.

[NorthStarRepublicML]

The former statement is a request that relies on the sympathy of the oppressor to keep it legal; while the former statement is a command that refuses to make (even hypothetical) negotiation on human life or well-being.

I would disagree on this point, how is it being oppressive to grant full access on demand to abortion?

it would seem that the action (legal and available abortion) is less important to you then the feelings or opinions of the persons that craft the subjective rights ..... i see no conflict here ... especially because subjective rights can change to the specific region, culture, state, or any number of mallable factors ....

does it not make more sense to say that abortion should be legal and available on demand because it is better for the society and creates less problems and negative impact on society then making it illegal would?

both arguments (either pragmatism or womens "rights") mean full access to abortion on demand ... the difference is not in the actions taken .... the difference is that a pragmatic argument is able to be defended and one based upon "natural rights" is flawed and subjective ....


It's similar to saying; "If you outlaw penicillin, we will resort to creating it in our basements, and that would be horrible!", rather than "We will not allow you outlaw penicillin because it is vital to the survival and well-being of many individuals."

No its not .... both of those statements are based on pragmatism not the rights of a person or group to have penicillin .... those statements go hand in hand: Penicillin should not be outlawed because using home-made penicillin could be dangerous and it is vital to the survival and well-being of many individuals thus making it illegal creates more problems then it solves ...

if you were to have said: "penicillin needs to be kept legal because everyone who is sick has a right to penicillin" then that would be similar to an argument based on natural rights, such as that which TC implies .... this argument would also be wrong because other cultures might view penicillin differently and place religious significance or other significance that out-weights health concerns ....

if you were to say: "penicillin should be legal because having it legal and available solves more problems then it creates" then this would be defensible position to take as the religious significance of penicillin or any other subjective non-material interest would take a backseat to the enormous health benefits.

so your penicillin analogy is not entirely accurate ....

TC believes that people have "natural rights" to certain things like abortion ... i do not



I believe what TragicClown was implying, was that the "back alley" analogy is anti-choice because it resorts to compromise.

how so? obviously if abortion is illegal people will give themselves abortions in unsafe environments .....

[indigenous-redfeminist]

well to me the reason there is even a taboo around abortion is because of christianity. People have been having abortions sence the begining of time. So when christianity spreads and becomes a national religion of many countries it becomes wrong. They want people to feel horrible, guilty, and shame for even having a thought of abortion. This is a womans right. And that is that. No one has the right to make the choice of any woman who can bear a child.
There should be jokes about abortion because as long as there isn't people will never be able to except it. Laughter and kidding is apart of exceptence, look when you loose something or someone dies dont people joke and try to make you laugh to get over it.There are jokes about death and according to anti-choicers it is the same thing ( killing babies anyway). I feel that a good joke would be able to break the ice about a sitituation that is happening and shouldn't be put to shame.
So blame chrisitanity for this sad and disturbing feeling that woman get from media, people, and them selves. Sure there will be a "what if" but whe the woman makes that choice shye needs support not guilt.

[counterblast]

Originally posted by indigenous-[email protected] 05, 2007 01:21 am
well to me the reason there is even a taboo around abortion is because of christianity. People have been having abortions sence the begining of time. So when christianity spreads and becomes a national religion of many countries it becomes wrong. They want people to feel horrible, guilty, and shame for even having a thought of abortion. This is a womans right. And that is that. No one has the right to make the choice of any woman who can bear a child.
There should be jokes about abortion because as long as there isn't people will never be able to except it. Laughter and kidding is apart of exceptence, look when you loose something or someone dies dont people joke and try to make you laugh to get over it.There are jokes about death and according to anti-choicers it is the same thing ( killing babies anyway). I feel that a good joke would be able to break the ice about a sitituation that is happening and shouldn't be put to shame.
So blame chrisitanity for this sad and disturbing feeling that woman get from media, people, and them selves. Sure there will be a "what if" but whe the woman makes that choice shye needs support not guilt.
I agree. But I don't blame only Christianity; but all Judeo-Christian religions (ie: Christianity, Judaism, Islam).

[Genosse Kotze]

You think abortions are funny?!?! You sick bas....what's that?...oh, right.
I'm now recieving word that you shouldn't listen to me as I am totally full of shit because I think they can be funny too!!

Prop-comedy has been forever more poisioned by Carrot Top, and observational comedy has been geting tiresome for a while now. That's why all of you should check out this internet cartoon: Premie Petey: The Living Abortion (http://www.apocalypsecartoons.com/premiepetey/premiepetey.html)

If you thought fetuses looked cute playing footbal in the womb or whatever, just wait till you get a load of their antics in this cartoon.

Actually, there are several cartoons on this site, and PPLA isn't really my favorite. Many atheists here are sure to like "Father Tucker the Child Fucker" though.

**WARNING** By clicking on this link, you do so at your own risk, as this may very well not be your kind of humor, and we at Genosse Kotze and co. take no responisbility in your getting offended, angry, and/or any combination of the same.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Originally posted by indigenous-[email protected] 05, 2007 03:21 am
well to me the reason there is even a taboo around abortion is because of christianity. People have been having abortions sence the begining of time. So when christianity spreads and becomes a national religion of many countries it becomes wrong. They want people to feel horrible, guilty, and shame for even having a thought of abortion.
Nonsense. There is no logical connection between any religious beliefs and an anti-abortion stance. The Bible does not condemn abortion (in fact, as far as I'm aware, it never even mentions it) and most anti-abortion arguments are based on the entirely non-religious idea that a fetus is an independent human life.

If there is any link between anti-abortion views and religion, it came about in a very contorted way and as a result of historical accident:

First, the dominant religion started being used by the feudal ruling class to justify their domination in the Middle Ages. Abortion was not an issue at this point, but the existing social order was patriarchal, so religious institutions were used by the ruling class to justify patriarchy (among other things). Centuries later, feudalism was overthrown and religious institutions were freed from the grip of a patriarchal feudal class, but they maintained their old ways out of simple inertia. Thus, in the modern era, those very same religious institutions have remained patriarchal because of their historical legacy. When abortion first became an issue, religious institutions gravitated towards the patriarchal side in the debate, which was the anti-abortion side.

[BurnTheOliveTree]

Hear hear. I actually remember this article from last year, I was on work experience at the Magistrate's Court, which was perhaps my own personal vision of hellfire, and I read it in court because I was feeling rebellious. I also refused to stand for the judge and didn't turn up on the last day, which for me is downright subversive. lol.

Anywho, I couldn't agree more about the cultural silence, barring grave anecdotes of mental trauma. This has a horrible snowball effect where some people seem to actually try and outdo eachother on grim tales of abortion. For instance, in my english language class, we each had to do a presentation on a topical issue. We were only marked on delivery, so I went for a comedy one and suggested we tax morbidly obese people until they get slim, and give the money to the W.H.O.

However, I digress. The girls in the class overwhelmingly went for abortion, and not a single damned one was pro-choice, at all. In fact, they suddenly went from basically being pleasant girls to coming out of the closet as frothing "life begins at conception" monsters.

One after the other, they came up, sweetly announced that they were going to talk about abortion, and put on their slideshow of pictures with foetuses looking cute, and asked ridiculous rhetorical questions like "Could YOU murder that child?". They also did the usual plethora of silly talking points, saying you can always adopt, a few even suggested that if the woman wasn't careful enough during sex, she should just shut up and suffer the consequences!

There's a chance for questions at the end, which thus far had been used as basically an oppurtunity to counter the person's general argument. In the abortion presentations, all the girls would ask questions, and all would use their question to blatantly repeat and reinforce what the person had been saying. I raised my hand, feeling pretty pissed off, and asked in a non-combative tone, "Do you think that a foetus, who can't feel anything and isn't aware of it's own existence, or anything else, should be valued over and above a pregnant woman's wishes?" The silence that ensued was chilling; I might as well have called the priest a fat ****. In the end I was glared at by a good 40 % of the room, and my question was never answered. I was given a noticeably cold shoulder for about a week.

The anti-choicers might not be winning the debate intellectually, heck, they might not have a leg to stand on, but they have got this sinister death grip on youth culture. It scares the shit out of me.

-Alex

[BurnTheOliveTree]

Thus, in the modern era, those very same religious institutions have remained patriarchal because of their historical legacy. When abortion first became an issue, religious institutions gravitated towards the patriarchal side in the debate, which was the anti-abortion side.

I think I probably agree with you here. That said, I'm not sure if it's the whole story.

St. Augustine used the aristotelian concept of 'Delayed Ensoulement' in 400ish A.D. This meant that abortion was murder at 90 something days, because it was at that point that the foetus was endowed with it's soul, and became human. This is a religious belief - souls aren't science. Thomas Aquinas said similar things, for him abortion is murder when a foetus becomes "animated".

Recently, the catholic church seems to use religiously based arguments to condemn abortion. You'll note, too, that they don't appear to have simply drifted towards a patriarchal position because it seems natural, in fact quite the opposite. They are passionately and furiously against abortion, which seems odd if it's merely a position that's been gravitated to due to historical patriarchy.

What could ever be a sufficient reason for excusing in any way the direct murder of the innocent? This is precisely what we are dealing with here. Whether inflicted upon the mother or upon the child, it is against the precept of God and the law of nature: 'Thou shalt not kill.' " Pope Pius XI

-Alex

[LSD]

I don't know about your specific area, but I don't think that any group can legitimately claim to have a "death grip on youth culture", excpect of course if the group in question is one of substances.

But on the subject of people, I would propose that no one political force has particular sway among "the young people", at least not among the young people I encounter. And certainly not a conservative one!

Now, granted, I may be unawares of what's happening in more conservative areas of the world (read: the US), but even in the deepest darkest Confederate south, I have to believe that political demographics still follow certain basic trends; one of the more enduring being that older folk tend to be more conservative than younger ones.

They're also a hell of a lot more open to change.

A pro-lifer in his 70s has been fighting against abortion for longer than a half-centiury, he can remember back to when abortion wasn't only illegal but unspeakable.

A 19 year old, on the other hand, has no first hand experience with any other sort of living and she's probably pretty damned used to abortion as a hot button political isssue; meaning that she knows all the ticks and tacks. Yeah, she knows 'em from the other side, but she knows 'em. And she also, consciously or not, accepts it as a legitimate debate.

So while you may despair at the prospect of trying to correct the error of her ways, be glad at least that you have the advantage of time on your side. 'Cause the job we've got is a hell of a lot easier than the one our parents had to do to get the right in the first place.

Fighting to maintain something's a lot easier than fighting to get it in the first place. Just a friendly reminder that things could be a lot worse... :)

[Dominicana_1965]

Women should have the right to choose whether they want a abortion or not, seriously you would have a lot less abortions if the family wasn't privatized, this is why I believe society as a whole should take care of the children, the freedom of a woman's choice would liberate her from the responsibilities of her socially constructed gender role and start giving women the opportunity to embrace a career instead of a male. Because of the privatized family humans that have tried to make a change in the world have lost their potential because of the Bourgeois mentality of putting family first (even when its a misunderstanding of the complex concept of love). And I would say that this far exceeds "emotions", its more of a cultural memory which humanity has gained that makes it seem bad, yet some of these very same people support the killings of Iraqi children & other oppressed children/people throughout the world. Truth is its not actually woman that are killing these kids, but the culture we adhere to, the privatized lifestyle we have picked up and conformed to.

Society must embrace all children as a part of their family if we seek to abolish abortion, the political conservatives & religious have made the situation worse by reinforcing this so called gender role, so they can keep their Bourgeois like dominance over women, so women can stay as our subordinates, as the sexual objects, as his & only HIS, so women can be considered hoeish if she decides to express herself sexually just like that sexual privilege a male has, so women are considered the eternal "house wives", so the male can be the human that represents eminence and once a woman gets "in power" society can worry more about what male is dominating her instead of the intellect and achievements she has gained.

You might ask why is anti-abortion negative?

Well in my opinion it maintains the social position of women, for a long time females that tried to start a cultural revolution were put down by anti-abortion, because of anti-abortion policing the women have gone back to what Bourgeois society has given her: a pan, rice & a crib to rock the baby to sleep. Anti-abortion can almost to a extent shut down any potential a "witch" (a female that doesn't act "like a lady") has and take her back to doing house chores & the most common, the subordinate of her husband.

Im glad that Mexico City recently introduced a choice option for females, although the religious reactionaries have tried to talk about their so called misunderstood "love for children" to ban it.

As long as women are attached solely to their gender role(such as children bearing, stupidity, looking pretty, and her ultimate goal: find a husband)
unlike males, they will stay under his masculinity.

I feel its our(males) duty to understand the privilege society has given us, so we can deconstruct it, and stand in equality with females (the first people to ever be enslaved).

[indigenous-redfeminist]

Nonsense. There is no logical connection between any religious beliefs and an anti-abortion stance. The Bible does not condemn abortion (in fact, as far as I'm aware, it never even mentions it) and most anti-abortion arguments are based on the entirely non-religious idea that a fetus is an independent human life.

If there is any link between anti-abortion views and religion, it came about in a very contorted way and as a result of historical accident:

First, the dominant religion started being used by the feudal ruling class to justify their domination in the Middle Ages. Abortion was not an issue at this point, but the existing social order was patriarchal, so religious institutions were used by the ruling class to justify patriarchy (among other things). Centuries later, feudalism was overthrown and religious institutions were freed from the grip of a patriarchal feudal class, but they maintained their old ways out of simple inertia. Thus, in the modern era, those very same religious institutions have remained patriarchal because of their historical legacy. When abortion first became an issue, religious institutions gravitated towards the patriarchal side in the debate, which was the anti-abortion side.

On the contrary the bible states that the father is the divine spirit (jesu cristo also) and to question or doubt his decisions is a sin. We are humans and we can not to play god. Not only thay committing abortion is breaking a commandment thou shall not kill. Yes that can be argued in many different ways but if you are listening to a sermon it will directly say when discussing abortion that thou shall not kill. It only up to god. And the bible will go on about the lord grants life and that we as humans dont have the power to decide that. Also with catholicism woman are not allowed to use birthcontrol so do you seriously think that abortion will be allowed.
Even in hardcore Evangelican faith birthcontrol is not used because they believe in Providence the good will of the lord and so on and so forth. None the less Christanity ( meaning all juedo-christian faiths) is the prime reason now even if you dont go to church and aren't active in your faith but that little moral path that you must fallow is in the back of your head. And because there is no seperation of church and state in many countries the govn't is outlawing it so saying Christianty has nothing to do with it is nonsense. Especially in America where there are millions of christians are breathing down your neck

[Saint Street Revolution]

My beliefs on Abortion are that the woman has every right to have one or not. There are many cases in life when it would help the mother as well as the baby, if she was not ready for the baby, financially, physically, mentally, whatever. People need to understand the simple fact that some women get pregnant and don't want to have a baby.

Fuck what a Bible said or any of that Religious bullshit, a woman has every right to do whatever she likes with her baby. Most women get Abortions because they're not ready for the baby, and that the baby would live in worse off conditions then when the mother is ready and willing to have a baby.

And if there's some Catholic woman that doesn't get an Abortion because she believes Abortion to be killing, because of that "Thou shalt not kill" stuff, which is fine, but Abortion isn't killing, it's her own fault the baby grows up in worse off conditions.

Complete freedom to have one, as well as not have one. I don't know why we're discussing Religious influences on Abortion issues, we know what we all believe in. This should be in Opposing Ideologies or Religion anyway.

[indigenous-redfeminist]

Fuck what a Bible said or any of that Religious bullshit, a woman has every right to do whatever she likes with her baby. Most women get Abortions because they're not ready for the baby, and that the baby would live in worse off conditions then when the mother is ready and willing to have a baby.

And if there's some Catholic woman that doesn't get an Abortion because she believes Abortion to be killing, because of that "Thou shalt not kill" stuff, which is fine, but Abortion isn't killing, it's her own fault the baby grows up in worse off conditions.

What the bible says blindsites the woman from making the descion that she really wants because many women are religious they may not be active but they believe in god so that makes them believe that there is something wrong with what they are thinking. Media forces the judeo-christian belief on the woman. Christianty has alto to do with why it is a taboo. I completely agree it is a woman's choice and no one eleses but we are discussing the taboo behind abortion not the right it self. Anyways when discussing abortion religion will be brought up because that is what the anti-choicers are. I know it gets annoying but its the truth.

[Saint Street Revolution]

Originally posted by indigenous-[email protected] 16, 2007 07:45 pm

Fuck what a Bible said or any of that Religious bullshit, a woman has every right to do whatever she likes with her baby. Most women get Abortions because they're not ready for the baby, and that the baby would live in worse off conditions then when the mother is ready and willing to have a baby.

And if there's some Catholic woman that doesn't get an Abortion because she believes Abortion to be killing, because of that "Thou shalt not kill" stuff, which is fine, but Abortion isn't killing, it's her own fault the baby grows up in worse off conditions.

What the bible says blindsites the woman from making the descion that she really wants because many women are religious they may not be active but they believe in god so that makes them believe that there is something wrong with what they are thinking. Media forces the judeo-christian belief on the woman. Christianty has alto to do with why it is a taboo. I completely agree it is a woman's choice and no one eleses but we are discussing the taboo behind abortion not the right it self. Anyways when discussing abortion religion will be brought up because that is what the anti-choicers are. I know it gets annoying but its the truth.
I agree with you. Every time we get in to a discussion about Abortion, it evolves into a Religious discussion no matter the original post or question. It irks me, to say the least.