Do you think its possible for Communism to still work? - wel

[Nick Yves]

First of all, let me just say that I just got done reading a LOT of opinions, facts, and statements posted here. So my brain may be a bit tired, so if I make some type of contradiction, spelling error, or just say something dumb, forgive me because I have read so much information in the past hour and a half that my original opinons (before I came here) may have been slurred a bit, if you get what I mean.

First of all- I went from reading and believing that the USSR never truly had communism, NO country did. Ive read that on a few websites. But then on a few others, I come here and I have also read that they did have a somewhat communist system.

Now my real question is- Do you think the USSR WAS infact trying to get a classless society and take care of its people, or was it a bullshit cover up like some say. Also, forgive cuz im new to communism in general, why didnt the revolution work? What, exactly, made it die down?

Also, I have read and heard before that the main reason communism would never work (wich I personally dont believe) is because if EVERYONE is secured a job, a home, equal pay, all things needed to survive etc...then no one would want to progress. If everyone had a job, and didnt GAIN anything from it, then no one would want to work, because they would get nothing special. That relates to the whole ''Blah yada, it goes against human nature'' theory.

Also, why isnt Cuba working as a communist country (I know they have many benefits, but I have read that they still arent that great off.) Same with China, etc...

One more thing- in a communist country, how would things like music, movies, anything with entertainment work? Certainly actors and actresses couldnt get paid more, otherwise it would no longer be a classless society. And, another flaw I have heard mentioned, if its a classless society, and everyne makes the same amount of money, well then, isnt the person pumping gas making just as much money as the person working his or her ass of doing things much more complicated? I think thats the whole ''Each according to their ability'' statement means...so please help me out with this.

Ive also read that communism could no longer work in the 21st century, because its either too late, or it would be nearly impossible because of all the technology, or something like that...someone clear this up for me. Thanks.

[Fever]

In my opinion communism was never trully a fact in the USSR. The communism of russia was generally exploited by its government some time afterwards. For more information on what happened i segest you pick up ANIMAL FARM by George orwell

[Nick Yves]

I have looked at Animal Farm before, never took the time to read it. Isnt it about the animals take over, but then they themselves become greedy etc...?

[redstar2000]

jetgrind, that's way too many questions for one thread.

But I'll answer your "title question"...I see no reason why communism wouldn't work even better with 21st century technology.

If you are going to attempt to centrally plan an economy, the more information that you have and the faster that you receive it...the better your plan can be adjusted to fit changing circumstances, and the better it will work.

:cool:

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

I'll adress another comment of yours. You said that the USSR was never communist. Marx considers the period during the dictatorship of the proletariat before the abolishment of the aristocraticaly-run government socialistic, yet not communsitic. Lenin, on the other hand, considered the entire process communism, if I'm not mistaken. The USSR never entirely reached what Marx would call the goal of communism, so it really depends.

[hazard]

here's the short answer:

YES

why?

because it never has not worked.
you come from the mindset that "communism works in theory", which is false
communism works in practice

[Iepilei]

ugh.

the concept of communism only being attainable in a theory is simply false. what that derieves from was McCarthy's reign of terror and the overall fear placed into people (americans in particular). 'Don't be a communist! They'll eat your children!' they say...

However, I've come across many of people - curious people - who say to me: "you're a communist? what does that mean exactly?". The ones who accept what they were told use the 'theory' argument.

However, socialism - as well as international socialism/communism is a completely reachable ideal. Of course, like all new systems, faults must be detected and worked out. No amount of planning or organisation can prepare you for anything.

You have to struggle to make anything worth having work.

[hazard]

in addition, the idea of "works" is a loaded value

it implies function, which in turn implies that its oppossitte, capitalism, is functionable

capitalism, however, is far from functionable

surely the feudal lords said that capitalism doesn't "work" when confronted with the bourgeois uprisings and revolts prior to the bourgeois revolution

as such, as capitalism is simply a mode of production BETWEEN less and more advanced modes of production, not only does it not work, it is a system that is NOT SUPPOSED TO WORK

in saying that Communism "doesn't work", one is also arguing that Capitalism "does work", even though it never can for it is designed, literally, to fail

all that is really in question is WHAT will replace capitalism, for the only productin mode that is a proven failure is capitalism. I see no alternate except for communism as a replacement to capitalism. to say that "it don't work" is ridiculous. the current production mode, capitalism, must be replaced in order for communism to ever be given a chance to "work".

[Spartacus2002]

personally...it'd be tough, alot of people want the white picket fence, house in the suburbs and 2 cars you know... but if they don't like it we can send them to labour camps, thats the only way it could be done, the truth is i have met tonnes of people from communist countries and none of them are very critical of it in fact most of them point out the good things about it, and didnt say they hated it or anything. the only people that hate it are those who know nothing about it

[Blibblob]

Where's the thread that had all the shit about rewriting the commie manefiesto... AH, dont hurt me again!

And in conjunction with spartacus' post, I know somebody who fled Russia. Most Americans would want to think that because they lived there, they must be anti-communist. Absolutly incorrect, they understand and agree with communism more than I do. The reason they fled Russia, was because its been on a down since the USSR fell. And they didn't quite want to live there anymore...

[Nick Yves]

Well if Communism works then why exactly did the USSR fall, etc?

Dont get me wrong, I AM a communist, just a learning one. :)

Oh, and what do all of you have to say to the people that say ''Communism wouldnt work because, if the people inventing new technology and the people pumping gas make the same amount of money, no one would want to do the harder job.''

Thank you guys for clearing some of this stuff up, I reall appreciate it...

[Blibblob]

''Communism wouldnt work because, if the people inventing new technology and the people pumping gas make the same amount of money, no one would want to do the harder job.''

Well, usually to people who throw shitty arguments like that at me I ignore. They are the ones who really don't know anything about their economic system, or ours. But, for you, I'll present my argument(quite a few people here can throw out a better one). First off, no money. "From each acording to his ability, to each acording to his need". Without the greed for money, people will work for beterment of society, and not just themselves. The one working the gas, uh, wouldn't really be the brightest light bulb in the container(hehe). And most scientists would want to do the harder job(they really dont get paid much now). Ask Einstein, he got shit when he was actually formulating his theories, later he made more through speeches... and ive gotta go.

[Nick Yves]

Run that by me again...didnt quite get it...nor do I think it answered the question very well...hmm...

[Boris Moskovitz]

But I got it! Now I've realized why the salaries are equal, I think. It is to make so that people won't turn too greedy. I get it! Blibblob means that people don't do the work for money, the people would try to help the community to be better by doing the best they can at jobs. They want to help in their own ways. They know that if no one works, no one gets money. If everyone works, everyone gets money.

The problem is that, in this world, there are always idiots who do not even make any efforts, and I think it's pathetic, they don't help, those people bring the whole place down. So it is like that.... I think...

[Blibblob]

Yes, kinda... lol

Your first part was right, but the second was wrong.:-D

Give me the name of somebody who actually helps society, but at the same time doesnt make a very large profit off of it.

I have one, Stephen Hawkins, then theres the guy who works in a coffee shop that is also working on Einstein's theory of relativity. Programmers, do not get paid what they are worth. The only ones that don't make any efforts are the owners of mass corporations. And well, the occational kid who just didn't get it in school and dropped out. Aside from that being not allowed in a Communist society, if they don't work to their full potential, they will be the ones doing "the jobs nobody else wants". Gives them a bit of an incentive to do good in school;).

And another way that it could be done is if everybody does the jobs that nobody wants to do. We could remove the need for garbage men, people would have to have their own food thingys(:-D, you know where you put the food so it degrades, im at a loss of words here) and also trash compacters, and once a week people could take turns bringing it to the local "dump". Is this a bit to far?, because i have more ideas.

(Edited by Blibblob at 9:42 am on April 6, 2003)

[Nick Yves]

Okay, but that still doesnt solve the fact that the person doing the easiest job earns as much as the person doing the hardest job- other than the fact to better the community, when it all comes down to it that just may have to be how it is. But then again, some would conclude that because of that, that takes away the desire to want to do the hardest job, considering there is no real award.

Also, can someone explain to me how capitalism was 'designed to fail'?

[Iepilei]

define for me, the 'hardest job'?

people usually mistake this for the one which requires some degree of education, or technical studies, to obtain. not such the case. I have family members in both areas, the physical brute-force labour, as well as the technical field. neither side has it easy - what the educated man pays for with time, the labourer pays for with effort.

either way, both sides exert themselves highly - and both sides are needed to maintain a society. you're always going to have people who don't accept a higher-education (you may call lazy), and you'll always have people who don't wish to work manual labour. The concept is not to off balance one for the other, but make avaliable all the resources of life and prosperity (food, water, education, shelter, etc) to any individual - no matter what his background - who seeks it.

this is the equality meant by communists. the equal opportunity to the means in which to succeed and the equal opportunity to the resources provided by ones own personal labour, whatever it may be.

[Blibblob]

Wow, that makes sense. Annoying smart people, make me look stupid.

[Robot Rebellion]

Of course communism can work. Many families operate on a communist system (unless they are backwards). Perhaps the strongest evidence comes from many native tribes throughout the world. Columbus spoke of this in his diary when he first met the Arawaks.

"They are so naive and free with their possessions that no one who has not witnessed them would believe it. When you ask them for something they have, they never say no. To the contrary, they offer to share with anyone. They do not bear arms and do not know them, for I showed them a sword, they took it by the edge and cut themselves out of ignorance…”

Franklin and Jefferson also spoke highly of the natives to which was stated they only worked around 4 hours a day, where the rest of the day was devoted to leisure... You didn't see Indians defecting to American culture, but you did see many Americans defect to the various tribes. Anarcho-primitivism is evidence of communism that can work.

I think the question for capitalist (who seem to have an obsession with this very issue), is whether capitalism can ever work? They champion America's GDP (as a shining example), even though the US employs crude socialist tools to reverse the side effects of capitalism to prevent a run-away greenhouse effect to full blown capitalism (affectionately know as feudalism) Even according to capitalist CATO, roughly half of US personal income is spent on taxes.

[Iepilei]

if I remember correctly, the entire concept of ownership and intrest came from the Catholic church. those who did not pay their tithes were forced to pay so much extra per year they didn't pay up.

[Rodneo]

I don’t know, I think that communism is a romantic idea, it would be a perfect society but at the same time, you would live a mediocre life; take me for example, I really don’t care about possession, but I do value knowledge a lot, Im always getting books and trying to learn new things, this summer for example, im going to study in Spain( I can read and write, but I want to be fluent ); I have been saving for a year to do that and im still going in a very tight budget. Im not 100% sure, but probably I wouldnt do that if I lived in a communist country.

[thursday night]

Why do you believe that? It isn't true at all.

[hazard]

yoda:

thats part of the argument used to support communism, that without material filth the people are more free to express hmeselves as humans and not as slaves to the capitalists and their material

think about it. conflict over possession, which is virtually ALL conflict would end. the crapitalists then seem to claim that "yeah, well, people will fight over women then". possibly, but the compounding of the probelm would disappear. if that, women, is the only source of conflict within communism then thats a vast improvement over the infinant level of conflict within capitalism.

of course, when capitalists introduce women as a form of possession, one need not look any furthur than the capitalists biggest problem. private ownership of any and everything. MY house. MY car. MY factory. MY country. MY woman. no wonder us commies call 'em pigs. sexism and racism is inherent to the capitalist mode of production.

[Rodneo]

I understand all that, but it works in theory, in which socialist country people had the financial conditions to something like that ?
In theory, communism would be the perfect world, but I just cant see a way to get to that point

[praxis1966]

Quote: from jetgrind on 3:26 am on April 6, 2003
Well if Communism works then why exactly did the USSR fall, etc?

Dont get me wrong, I AM a communist, just a learning one. :)

Oh, and what do all of you have to say to the people that say ''Communism wouldnt work because, if the people inventing new technology and the people pumping gas make the same amount of money, no one would want to do the harder job.''

Thank you guys for clearing some of this stuff up, I reall appreciate it...

This a complete lie perpetrated by the right wing. In the 1950s Polish scientists, working under a communist system, developed a light bulb that lasted on average 40 years. Yet, later on, after Polish communism went the way of the dodo, GE bought out all of their production facilities. Since then, these same factories have been producing lightbulbs that last 6 months if you're lucky.

You see, the motivation for innovation in capitalist and communist societies are completely different. In a capitalist society, you wouldn't want to produce something that lasts next to forever. Your motivation for innovation is profit, therefore REAL innovation is discouraged. Under a communist system, the motivation would be endurance and service. In other words, the litmus test would be whether or not the product would stand the test of time and still remain functional.

[ComradeJunichi]

Don't "learn" as a communist, learn as a student who is open-minded. You will achieve nothing when you try to "learn" with a closed mind.

Communism is a utopia, an idealistic society that we wish and strive to achieve. The means of getting there is socialism. Can socialism work within our lifetime? Yes, and it is right this second.

Marxist-Leninism is not a "romantic" theory but a scientific theory. Without looking at highschool-textbook definitions but looking into the theory in depth you would see this.

Will communism work? I don't know, but I do know it's nowhere close to our lifetime.

[Aleksander Nordby]

of course communism will work.

[Klondike]

There is only one way that our cause can work in todays society. It is that the youth of the world has to realize that there are other people on earth besides themselves. That the conceit of almost everyone living on this planet has to end. That is the only way that Communism can work.

[smoer]

i think communism has never excisted because it wanst worked out right