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Dimentio
7th July 2007, 20:39
In a recent thread, an anarchist claimed that leninists wanted to install some sort of transitional system, in order to replace the capitalist elite with themselves. Thus, he was making a claim that leninists wants to fool the worker in a way remniscent of the way fascists are fooling workers. Thus, we should somehow think that leninists are very cynical and only think on themselves while manipulating people.

I think that kind of thinking, no matter what group it is directed at, is probably very dangerous since it is invoking witch-hunt sentiments. With this thread, I did not intend to bash leninists or anarchists, but to discuss a concept known as emergent properties of social situations.

In a simplified form, emergent properties could be likened with evolution. If we chose to not believe in some form of deity, then we must assume that evolution is unplanned and the result of interaction between species within a given environment, forcing the development of new and more adapted species. Emergent properties is the general situation which is established due to this constant flow of inputs and outputs. It could actually be described as another word for dialectal materialism.

The same could be said about society. Of course, our society is a bit different from that, since we due have organs established to protect the interests of those who are benefitting most from the total production. One such organ is of course the state. But no ruler, government or dominant class, not even in a totalitarian theocratic empire where all people are supposed to cite prayers all day long and all night long, could expect to totally control reality.

Even the establishment of a system to increase the control of the ruling class, as "absolutism" in the 17th century (which centralised the European states through force under the control of the monarch), has proven the possibility of creating emerging properties outside of the control of the establishment (the establishment of the bourgeoisie for example).

Therefore, it is not wise to assume that flawless appraisal of one ideology, and the results of the practice of that ideology, would in some way naturally constitute "treason" or "deception". Rather, the emergent properties has proven to be hard to control from a central nexus, something which we European Technocrats have realised by studying the experiences of political and legislative reforms from various political bodies and systems.

By trying to create laws to speed up the process of socialism, marxist-leninists tied up to an inefficient form of control which proved it's own undoing. Social democrats have failed even more profoundly. By utilising the state nexus, one could not forget that the state has it's own emergent properties which generally would transform any decision made by such a body into something which the founders of the revolution never intended for.

A different way which has not been tried out fully yet, might be to try to direct the flow of emergent properties directly, through a holonic system with no centre. That would mean that instead of building society like a clockwork, it would work like a body of autonomous holons, composing worker teams, factories and even regions. By trying to transform society from the perspective of the means of production, the way to utilise technology, we would change the basis, not the superstructure, and therefore hold a more likely chance to success.

Also, I think that a revolution from one stage of development to another, is a process which do not necessarily need to encompass angry workers with red flags storming barricades, but that it actually could be a very slow process, which might take more than one life-time.

Rosa Lichtenstein
7th July 2007, 20:59
I am not sure why you are dressing this up as an 'emergent property', which is an obscure term of art beloved of idealists, which merely labels our ignorance of the causes invoved.

Dimentio
7th July 2007, 23:59
It is what dr. Wallace defined the processes in the price system as during his latest lecture during Earth Day.

Rosa Lichtenstein
8th July 2007, 01:10
Well all manner of people (mainly idealists -- they invented this term to counter reductionism) use this vague term as a cover for the fact that their own theory is crap.

It works a bit like the 'god of the gaps' argument works for theists: "We can't explain where these 'higher order' properties came from, or how they got there, so let's just say they 'emerged'."

Sorted....

syndicat
8th July 2007, 01:12
Emergent property is a concept in the philosophy of science. It can be explained with reasonable clarity, i think. There is an article on this:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/properties-emergent/

The idea is that when a system reaches some level of complexity, new features of the system as a whole emerge that are not reducible to the parts of that whole. Consciousness of humans would be an example, as it isn't reducible to the bio-chemical properties of a human organism. There is both a "strong" and "weak" form of this theory. The "strong" version of the theory says that new properties emerge that can't be explained in terms of the basic physical forces. The "weak" version says that the new properties can be explained by the complex underlying physical systems but are simply distinct properties, not "reducible" to properties of the underlying parts or forces. The "strong" form of emergence would mean that new causal capacities are created, not explicable in terms of the underlying physical forces. On the "weak" version the agency of the emergent properties is derived from the underlying forces.

But it's not clear to me what this has to do with the political ideas being discussed here.

Dimentio
8th July 2007, 01:15
That the development of society could not be summed up in theories of conspiracy, nor directed by ideology, but must be seen as a process of emergence. I will probably put up the next Wallace lecture on youtube.

syndicat
8th July 2007, 02:11
conspiracy theories are generally poor explanations. you don't need the theory of emergent properties to say that.

mikelepore
8th July 2007, 16:48
Emergent property is a concept in the philosophy of science

Similar to the transformation of quantity into quality, as described by Engels in 'Anti-Duhring' and in 'The Dialectics of Nature'. Generally I think dialectics is nonsense, with the exception of the point about quantity and quality, an effect that is sometimes observable.

syndicat
8th July 2007, 16:54
except that emergent property can be defined clearly. i think "transformation of quantity into quality" is too vague to be of any value. Rosa L.'s website has a good critique of this notion.

Violent Violence
8th July 2007, 19:03
Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 07:39 pm
In a recent thread, an anarchist claimed that leninists wanted to install some sort of transitional system, in order to replace the capitalist elite with themselves. Thus, he was making a claim that leninists wants to fool the worker in a way remniscent of the way fascists are fooling workers. Thus, we should somehow think that leninists are very cynical and only think on themselves while manipulating people.

I think that kind of thinking, no matter what group it is directed at, is probably very dangerous since it is invoking witch-hunt sentiments. With this thread, I did not intend to bash leninists or anarchists, but to discuss a concept known as emergent properties of social situations.

In a simplified form, emergent properties could be likened with evolution. If we chose to not believe in some form of deity, then we must assume that evolution is unplanned and the result of interaction between species within a given environment, forcing the development of new and more adapted species. Emergent properties is the general situation which is established due to this constant flow of inputs and outputs. It could actually be described as another word for dialectal materialism.

The same could be said about society. Of course, our society is a bit different from that, since we due have organs established to protect the interests of those who are benefitting most from the total production. One such organ is of course the state. But no ruler, government or dominant class, not even in a totalitarian theocratic empire where all people are supposed to cite prayers all day long and all night long, could expect to totally control reality.

Even the establishment of a system to increase the control of the ruling class, as "absolutism" in the 17th century (which centralised the European states through force under the control of the monarch), has proven the possibility of creating emerging properties outside of the control of the establishment (the establishment of the bourgeoisie for example).

Therefore, it is not wise to assume that flawless appraisal of one ideology, and the results of the practice of that ideology, would in some way naturally constitute "treason" or "deception". Rather, the emergent properties has proven to be hard to control from a central nexus, something which we European Technocrats have realised by studying the experiences of political and legislative reforms from various political bodies and systems.

By trying to create laws to speed up the process of socialism, marxist-leninists tied up to an inefficient form of control which proved it's own undoing. Social democrats have failed even more profoundly. By utilising the state nexus, one could not forget that the state has it's own emergent properties which generally would transform any decision made by such a body into something which the founders of the revolution never intended for.

A different way which has not been tried out fully yet, might be to try to direct the flow of emergent properties directly, through a holonic system with no centre. That would mean that instead of building society like a clockwork, it would work like a body of autonomous holons, composing worker teams, factories and even regions. By trying to transform society from the perspective of the means of production, the way to utilise technology, we would change the basis, not the superstructure, and therefore hold a more likely chance to success.

Also, I think that a revolution from one stage of development to another, is a process which do not necessarily need to encompass angry workers with red flags storming barricades, but that it actually could be a very slow process, which might take more than one life-time.
I think you are wholly confused about dialectical materialism, which in all likelihood you are only using as a shell for historical materialism. "Choosing to not believe in some form of deity" has next to nothing to do with it.

It is far from philosophically settled that materialism has triumphed over idealism, in fact none of the (relevant) current traditions (neo-Kantian, post-positivist, scientific essentialism) venture to speculate on the point. An organism and its consciousness are synthetic in that it is combination of its sense-data and how that data is processed. But even saying that presupposes many things such as the existence of an objective world (Nature). A realist perspective.

So, no, emergence can not be held to be synonymous with diamat IMHO


In a simplified form, emergent properties could be likened with evolution. If we chose to not believe in some form of deity, then we must assume that evolution is unplanned and the result of interaction between species within a given environment, forcing the development of new and more adapted species. Emergent properties is the general situation which is established due to this constant flow of inputs and outputs. It could actually be described as another word for dialectal materialism.

As a counterclaim consider Zuse and his concept of Calculating Space which has been carried forth by Stephen Wolfram and countless other professionals and many an internet crank. Or David Bohm who asserted the primacy of information. I do not want to advocate for computerism but I don't believe it has been disproved, either.


The same could be said about society. Of course, our society is a bit different from that, since we due have organs established to protect the interests of those who are benefitting most from the total production. One such organ is of course the state. But no ruler, government or dominant class, not even in a totalitarian theocratic empire where all people are supposed to cite prayers all day long and all night long, could expect to totally control reality.

Porting over principles of natural science such as emergence onto the social sciences is a tricky business -- in particular one must be careful with the analogies one draws. Nevertheless, the Marxist interpretation of an economic mode and relations which generates political, legal, and cultural superstructures is a very good track to explore. It is not so easy to say that these emergent structures are examples of the dialectic though.


By trying to create laws to speed up the process of socialism, marxist-leninists tied up to an inefficient form of control which proved it's own undoing. Social democrats have failed even more profoundly. By utilising the state nexus, one could not forget that the state has it's own emergent properties which generally would transform any decision made by such a body into something which the founders of the revolution never intended for.

This is ludicrous. Emergence has nothing to do with the antagonism between the proletariat and the State.

Dimentio
8th July 2007, 21:04
Emergence has everything to do with the internal development of society. It could explain why a society, even a nominally progressive one, will fail to reach it's plan, not due to some conspiracy, but to factors which are independent of individuals and rather are the effect of general structures.

MarxSchmarx
9th July 2007, 02:26
Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 08:04 pm
It could explain why a society, even a nominally progressive one, will fail to reach it's plan, not due to some conspiracy, but to factors which are independent of individuals and rather are the effect of general structures.
I think if you want to argue this point, you need to conduct something like psychological experiments, putting well-meaning people in positions of authority commensurate with the state. I doubt the stanford prison experiments would qualify.

I agree with Rosa L. that appealing to emergence to explain degenerated workers states (or somesuch) seems like a dead end. If we want to critique statism, we need to have a mechanistic outlook. Many well-meaning leftists simply, and with good reason, won't buy it, and you'll have a hard time persuading leninists to defect on account of a vague "emergence."

mikelepore
9th July 2007, 22:36
Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 03:54 pm
except that emergent property can be defined clearly. i think "transformation of quantity into quality" is too vague to be of any value. Rosa L.'s website has a good critique of this notion.
The quantity-quality idea doesn't have what science calls predictive power, and unlike a procedure in logic it can't distinguish between a true proposition and a false one. But I believe it has one kind of usefulness. Unfortunately, there are still some people, mainly "free market" supporters, who continue to deny that changing something numerically can change what it is essentially. For example, if some free speech is good, then they would say that it follows that a huge media corporation, being a whole lot of free speech, must be very good. Socialists know that the huge media corporation is a form of censorship. Similarly, an economic system can be historically progressive in 1776 but regressive in 2007. Numerical changes have inverted the characteristics. People need a lot of reminders that such a thing is possible.

Engels' particular way of describing it doesn't seem to be very convincing. If taking the reader through a series of organic molecules could make the point effectively, then organic chemists generally would have become be socialists, so the analogy apparently didn't make a lot of converts. But somehow the point needs to be made. The macroscopic behavior, the "terminal characteristics", of many things can change drastically when their building blocks have been rearranged or changed in magnitude.