A debate of intelligence

[Zildjiantheater]

As I am relatively knew to this site, I will apologize if this has already been discussed. My question to you is, if socialism were to be in tact, we would really trust 'leaders' of this country to govern the new system that we put in place. Giving any group of Americans that much power seems illogical. I mean, look at what we have now with out terrible system of checks and balances; corruption is still rampant. Do we think that giving government more control to level the playing fields is a wise idea here?

[Don't Change Your Name]

Excuse me, but most people here don't really want "big government" and you're misunderstanding the rest of them based on certain lies that have been spread by certain defenders of "laissez faire" capitalism.

Oh, and another thing, not everyone here is "American".

[Zildjiantheater]

Easy there killer. It was a question not a threat (and I didn't know that this wasn't a solely American forum, my bad). By socialism and the 'classless' society, government has to play a major role in the formation if it is to be sustainable. Anarchy can only go on so long before people form parties or are defeated by another empire; hense the creation of a government. What are some ideal suggestions for America (non-Americans please feel free to chime in. I'm just trying to get the idea of the tone of this forum)

[Tatarin]

Giving any group of Americans that much power seems illogical.

It's not about giving the government power. There would be many more checks and balances in order for the people to control the state. Media's role would change from reporting Britney Spears' new clothes, to real politics, real issues.

Secondly, democracy would become an everyday practice. If a person is unfit or unable to be in the government, then that person would leave at once - not like the system today, in which we vote twice a decade or until some political "scandal".


I mean, look at what we have now with out terrible system of checks and balances; corruption is still rampant.

Corruption is rampant because the majority is being surveillanced instead of politicians. People are becoming more and more uninterested in politics, because main issues such as poverty, work, law and such are not discussed.

One can blame the media also because the government has always been portrayed as a big institution with unlimited power - true, governments may be big and may weild power, but it's mission should be towards it's own people.

People are propagated to believe that the individual and the private group makes much more progress than a government, that governments' agenda is to control people - and so, America has not much government (directed at it's people) left, only corporate entities that controls it.


Do we think that giving government more control to level the playing fields is a wise idea here?

Remember that the purpose of a true socialist government is to develop communism - to redistribute wealth equally and establish a worker-controlled society. After that, it must dissolve.


By socialism and the 'classless' society, government has to play a major role in the formation if it is to be sustainable.

Yes, a government that is controlled by the people - in a much more serious way than today.


Anarchy can only go on so long before people form parties or are defeated by another empire; hense the creation of a government.

The revolution will either result in global communism or in local areas becoming socialist nations or unions etc. In order for communism to exist, all the world must be involved. But if there will be socialist nations/regions, the people will organize it's own militia in order to defend socialism.


What are some ideal suggestions for America

The people must rise up and sieze the US government, and dismantle the corporate system. Wealth must be redistributed in one way or another.

[samdahil]

I have always asked myself the question, how would such a wholly socialist government would mantain its socialism? How would it survive?
(Note I am not saying 'No socialist government could survive, I am obviously as a member of thsi forum a socialist)

[bezdomni]

I have always asked myself the question, how would such a wholly socialist government would mantain its socialism? How would it survive?

It wouldn't. Socialism withers away into communism, that is the goal of socialism.

[Zildjiantheater]

There would have to be a massive uprising for this to happen, in which case, other nations would come to either defend America or take it over. It's pretty much impossible for this to happen. My personal theory is that it's a great idea in concept but it cant' be effectively implemented. If we are worried about the people, it can't be a violent uprising because that equals death, which works against the idea. We should focus on how we can get more socialist ideas into american government to be more morally responsible.

[samdahil]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 07:31 pm

I have always asked myself the question, how would such a wholly socialist government would mantain its socialism? How would it survive?

It wouldn't. Socialism withers away into communism, that is the goal of socialism.
Okay, how would a communist society survive? Surely at some forseeable point some opposing force would arise, how could a communist society survive?



Zildjiantheater Posted on Just 51 minutes ago
There would have to be a massive uprising for this to happen, in which case, other nations would come to either defend America or take it over. It's pretty much impossible for this to happen. My personal theory is that it's a great idea in concept but it cant' be effectively implemented. If we are worried about the people, it can't be a violent uprising because that equals death, which works against the idea. We should focus on how we can get more socialist ideas into american government to be more morally responsible.
For a start, there are more than American nations in the world.
I have always always always HATED HATED HATED HATED HATED The phrase 'its sounds great, but it could never really happen could it?'
If there were no practicaly aspects of it then it wouldn't have any merit and it wouldn't sound so damn good, and it certainly shouldn't make any sense.
Violence of the proleteriat, in one incarnation or another, has always been an essential part of practical marxism has it not?

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

Zildjiantheater


By socialism and the 'classless' society, government has to play a major role in the formation if it is to be sustainable.

By socialism we mean generally, that any system where all the property of the country is held under the control of the state. The state is run democratically through workers councils or 'soviets' as they were called in Russia.

Each council sends delegates to a higher up council and from those a government is formed. all delegates at every level are subject to recall at any time, so long as 75% or more want the person recalled. (that number is an example)

The wages delegates receive are the same as a skilled worker and no more.

So, you have 'street councils' and work councils. So, effectively the whole of the populace is part of the government. You can also have referendums etc.

This is just a basic example of how things could be run. But we dont know what socialism will really be like.


If we are worried about the people, it can't be a violent uprising because that equals death, which works against the idea.

Socialists on this site, almost wholly support revolution as a means of attaining socialism. For each country the revolution will be different. Some will just be mass demonstrations and strikes etc, other will be armed gorilla conflicts.

But, violence is a response to state violence which is stopping the mass of people from building a new type of society. So, they start it, and we need to be able to fight them back.


We should focus on how we can get more socialist ideas into american government to be more morally responsible.

Well, capitalist society, has its entire economy controlled by a few hundred thousand capitalists, who have enormous influence over the bourgeois government.

They literally will not allow for it to be reformed.

[Tatarin]

It wouldn't. Socialism withers away into communism, that is the goal of socialism.

But to put it into another sence: what would happen if Africa became socialist, but the US and EU remained capitalist? Wouldn't they once again try to control Africa - or at least do everything in their power to destroy the development of socialism there?

On the other hand, when the condition is right for socialism, there will probably be much more uprising in the west...


There would have to be a massive uprising for this to happen, in which case, other nations would come to either defend America or take it over.

America is the most powerful nation left. In order for it to fall, there must be massive internal uprising. I'd say it's a question for the future - either America (as the leading capitalist nation) will turn first, or last.


It's pretty much impossible for this to happen. My personal theory is that it's a great idea in concept but it cant' be effectively implemented.

Just like people back during the feudal times said that other systems were impossible. It isn't. It only looks hopeless. Many people in the west are not entirely angry at capitalism yet, but as companies move to China, or Vietnam, and exploit people there for almost no wage at all, I think people will start to question the system.

The news say China is evil and "communist" - while companies see it as heaven. Just one of the many contradictions within capitalism.


If we are worried about the people, it can't be a violent uprising because that equals death, which works against the idea.

Violence is, so far, the only viable solution. Yes, sure, we don't know - maybe the police will stand down. Maybe the army will dissolve all by itself. Maybe the rich will give up all their wealth. The sad thing is that they have slaughtered millions of people (directly and indirectly) to increase their power, so why wouldn't they use anything in their power to protect their wealth when the revolution comes?

Revolutions aren't fun, or something people wish for. I mean, people wish for progress, but in order to make real change, a revolution must happen. No system will fall by itself - if anything, it will just transform itself to the closest thing there is (fascism in capitalism).


We should focus on how we can get more socialist ideas into american government to be more morally responsible.

It's not the American government, it's about changing the way one lives. Sure, some reforms can make life better, but the longer capitalism exists, the more harder measures there must be in order for it to survive. The US government is controlled by the corporate world, which runs on capitalism.

The point of a communist revolution is to abolish, for all people, the search for wealth. Society must change from doing anything for the money, into doing things that are useful for other people. That way, the community will grow in a direction which the majority wants based on that community's need and want, rather than decisions based on how much money they have.