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Rebelde
6th July 2007, 19:24
I was wondering if any one here has read the u.s. constitution and if you have tell me whether you agreed with or disagreed with it in general.

b man
6th July 2007, 19:39
I disagree with a lot of my close friends on this but I have always admired the American revolutionary movement and the so called "founding fathers", as well as the French revolutionary movement and the declaration of the rights of man.

Both instances (especially in the US) have been accused of hypocrisy (slavery, other examples), and are certainly not models (but neither are the Bolsheviks, we learn more with each step in history), but the basic ideas of revolting to bring more power to the people can not be disputed.

Also, to criticize revolutionary leaders for todays capitalist imperialism is downright silly.

CornetJoyce
6th July 2007, 19:46
Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 06:24 pm
I was wondering if any one here has read the u.s. constitution and if you have tell me whether you agreed with or disagreed with it in general.
What do you mean by "agreed or disagreed with it?" Do you mean, was the original constitution- the Articles of Confederation- better? At the time, about half the people thought so, which is why a Bill of Rights was added to restrain the new government.

It disintegrated in 1861 so it was every bit as effective as the Nigerian or Yugoslav constitutions. It had been constructed as a limited monarchy but the civil war changed all that. The paper constitution now is, as bush so shrewdly observes, just paper.

b man
6th July 2007, 20:36
It had been constructed as a limited monarchy

By intention. The British system was what it was based on, this was openly stated by everyone.


but the civil war changed all that

How so?


The paper constitution now is, as bush so shrewdly observes, just paper

It is just as misinterpreted now as it was a few years after its drafting (alien and sedition acts, numerous other examples).

CornetJoyce
6th July 2007, 22:00
Originally posted by b [email protected] 06, 2007 07:36 pm



but the civil war changed all that

How so?


The paper constitution now is, as bush so shrewdly observes, just paper

It is just as misinterpreted now as it was a few years after its drafting (alien and sedition acts, numerous other examples).

Well, these matters are hardly discussable here, but here's my thumbnail sketch:


The American Republic has died.


There had been several Republics but unlike the French we maintained the fiction that “the Republic,” although different, was always the same. The First Republic was of course a loose federation of republics. The Philadelphia constitution of 1787 launched the Second Republic, a relatively centralized constitutional and partyless monarchy, which is to say, a one party state. Still, it was a federal Republic, “if you can keep it,” as Franklin famously remarked.



The Revolution of 1798-1800 gave us a Third Republic, with a legitimate opposition. Jefferson thought the happy outcome was due not to the paper constitution but to “the constitution of the people, which would oblige even a despot to govern us republicanly.” “What is meant by `republic’ in the United States is the slow and quiet action of society upon itself,“ explained Tocqueville. “If republican principles are to perish in the United States… they will have many apparent revivals and will vanish beyond recall only when an entirely new people has taken the place of the one there now.”



The paper constitution was in fact worthless, providing mostly a half-baked set of ground rules for the contest over chattel slavery, eventually to be resolved through “the constitution of the people” in the very Republican form of Anti-slavery. The Civil War ended chattel slavery but also ended the federal Republic and ushered in the consolidated Fourth Republic. Before the war, one said “the United States are”; thereafter, one said “the United States is,” which is grammatically incorrect but politically factual.



The end of chattel slavery in Dixie meant not so much freedom as peonage, and in the North the full measure of wage slavery. The defeat of the plantation system sped the business corporation toward unchallenged supremacy. “At the time of the anti-slavery agitation, I was not sure whether we should come out of the struggle with one republic or two; but republics I knew we should still be,” said the great Abolitionist Wendell Phillips. “I confess that the only fear I have in regard to republican institutions is whether, in our day, any adequate remedy will be found for this incoming flood of incorporated wealth… Every man that has met it has been crushed to powder.”



“I am not so confident, indeed, that we shall come out of this storm as a republic unless the Labor movement succeeds,” said Phillips with the Knights of Labor in mind. The Knights, too, were “crushed to powder.” and corporate power grew and grew, with the blessings of the American Federation of Labor. When the West was won, the Owners began to look beyond the seas and to build great fleets; and as the moneyed corporations became more and more oppressive, the national state assumed more power to regulate its corporate creatures. At the end of World War Two, the talented and popular historian of the Civil War Bruce Catton observed that the collusion of Big Government and Big Business (Big State and Big Corporation) in the war against fascism had now created the preconditions for fascism in America.



In 1947 the Fifth and Final Republic began to emerge with the secret “National Security Council” as the president’s privy council, displacing the cabinet. There was an awkward period when journalists noticed that the “cabinet meeting”—always a sham in a country with no parliament but still an important trapping of republicanism—hardly ever occurred. Fewer and fewer remembered even the trappings. Who now even asks about “cabinet meetings?” Of course, progressives still make much of “cabinet level” bureaucracies to denote matters of gravitas, but not to suggest anything like a cabinet.



As the national security state grew, the council in turn, beginning with Kennedy, was pushed aside in favor of a single advisor to the president, and “national security” flowered into “national crisis.” Then, in 2001, a gaggle of exTrotskyites, disillusioned and on the make, gave the world “neo-conservatism” which transmuted the doctrine of Permanent Revolution into the doctrine of Permanent Crisis and Permanent War against resistance everywhere, and all power was gathered into the hands of the Imperial Commander. The Bill of Rights and the Geneva Conventions—the labor of centuries—became “quaint” relics. The Republic, once the earthly executor of Julia Howe’s righteous god, was now a shadowy abstraction for which the flag somehow stood; and republicanism was now the rule of a totalitarian “republican party.” The arbitrary power to which the “republican party” is dedicated is, of course, the antithesis of Republicanism, but the term long ago passed out of the collective memory.



A Democracy has to be a Republic, but a Republic is seldom Democratic; the late American Republic, after an early skirmish with Democracy, returned to its oligarchic roots. Honest conservatives knew that it was “a Republic and not a Democracy.” Some even knew that empire is incompatible with a Republic. Progressives, on the other hand, were not interested in the Republic while it lived and breathed, preferring to fulsomely praise a “democracy” that never drew a first breath or to wax indignant about the “so-called democracy” which was never so called by the founders of the Republic.



While progressives found the Republic old-fashioned and boring, they were vaguely aware of its advantages—especially elements of the Bill of Rights, which they endeavored to edit down to the parts they regarded as progressive. Since the funeral, they have rushed to offer patent medicine, brewed in the Petri dishes of “political science,” to cure the rigor mortis of the body politic; and now that the Republic has reached an advanced state of decomposition, they offer stronger doses of the same medicine. Still, the patient does not improve. Some even warn that death may prove fatal to the Republic, and they are no doubt correct.



“Heal Our Republic,” urges the Coffeehouse Digest. “Change Our Electoral System.” The “electoral system” turns out to be the way our “presidents” are selected—rather like curing a drunk by pouring gin down his throat—nor is there any indication that the writer understood the irony of the title. Thus doth the Republic end, not with the shrieks of valkyries but with the simpering of progressives, who sit amid its whited sepulcher and dream of the Good Ruler elected according to sound accounting principles, his total power totally legitimated.



For generations assured that “it can’t happen here,” denial is the first and obvious response to the death of the Republic; but it has happened here. For progressives as well as the few dozen remaining Republicans, the crucial emerging question is one familiar to Romans of the First Century: how do we live under despotism? The cheerful answer is “we will recover the Republic,” but we will not. Americans are no longer Republicans. They have become, as Tocqueville would say, “an entirely new people.”



There may be “apparent revivals,” just as the Roman Republic revived for two days after the death of Caligula. We may have periods of relative benignity, when the State and its subsidiary media will report no torture and reveal no news from the vast constellation of American gulags that encompass the Earth, and great crowds may mill about with placards and pompoms and celebrate their mendicant “democracy.” That will satisfy the shallow virtues of good-government progressives, and they will generously praise themselves for it; but there will be no move to suppress arbitrary power, and the Republic will continue to molder in the grave



What kind of people are these new, post-modern Americans? The evidence is overwhelming: they are fit only for despotism, and their despots know it well. Liberty can be learned, and, as our ancestors knew, it is unlearned with greater ease. If the Republic is born in “the times that try men’s souls,” then the death of the Republic is surely the time for men without souls. Accordingly, we see the reign of soulless men who are as servile but not as faithful as golems: barbarians without naïve virtues, criminals without redemptive remorse.



Let us then give the Republic a decent burial, each according to his lights. How does one live under despotism? Quietly, fellow prisoners. Quietly.

RedJacobin
6th July 2007, 22:29
Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 06:24 pm
I was wondering if any one here has read the u.s. constitution and if you have tell me whether you agreed with or disagreed with it in general.
I'm not an RCPer, but I think their description of the U.S. Constitution as "an exploiter's vision of freedom" is right on.

http://rwor.org/a/035/avakian-us-constitution-exploiter.htm

Janus
8th July 2007, 00:19
The Constitution exists as the foundation of the US political system and bourgeois legitimacy. As such, I doubt you'll find anyone outside of OI who supports it.

RedJacobin
8th July 2007, 02:26
Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 11:19 pm
The Constitution exists as the foundation of the US political system and bourgeois legitimacy. As such, I doubt you'll find anyone outside of OI who supports it.
I'm not sure about this forum, but there's plenty of people on the Left, including both liberals and those who consider themselves communist (ex: the revisionist CPUSA with its advocacy of "Bill of Rights socialism"), who see the U.S. Constitution as something more than a bourgeois exploiter's vision of freedom.

It's an important discussion to have, tied to a bunch of other issues, like whether the goal of revolutionaries is to make the U.S. "live up to its promise" or to overthrow all of this shit, whether symbols of American patriotism should be claimed by the Left, whether the founding fathers were progressive figures (ex: there's a book by the Trotskyist Alan Woods with a ridiculous cover that puts Marx's portrait alongside that of the slave-owning pedophile rapist Thomas Jefferson), and so on.

Rebelde
8th July 2007, 20:03
In a communist state would we have the right to bear arm's or be protected from illegal search and seizure's? what about free speech?

cheisgreat
8th July 2007, 20:11
I studied the US consitution for a few months this year as part of my politics course. The founding fathers are racist bastardos frankly. But I would say the US has a much more healthy democracy than the UK because the people gain much more of an effective voice even in such a vast country (thanks to the constitution?). But in modern society the US constitution is very much out of date, this is evidenced by the Supreme court changing laws, amending the constitution etc. I say abolish the electoral college. Its way out of date.

cheisgreat
8th July 2007, 20:16
Was Thomas Jefferson really a paedo rapist? I'm so naive and that bollox JFK loved him. Jefferson didn't want whites and blacks to marry either.

Kwisatz Haderach
8th July 2007, 21:54
Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 03:26 am
whether the founding fathers were progressive figures (ex: there's a book by the Trotskyist Alan Woods with a ridiculous cover that puts Marx's portrait alongside that of the slave-owning pedophile rapist Thomas Jefferson)
Of course the founders of the US were progressive (please stop calling them "founding fathers" - it does highlight the patriarchal nature of their society, but calling any political figure "father" is too orwellian for my taste). They were bourgeois revolutionaries living in a time when the bourgeoisie played a progressive historical role. Of course, that period ended in the 19th century in the West, and the bourgeoisie has been reactionary for over a century, but that's another issue.

Now, as to the American Constitution, it is first of all a very bureaucratic document, concerning itself more with the mechanics of government than anything else. Contrary to common belief, for example, the unamended Constitution in its original form does not grant anyone any rights or freedoms.

Janus
8th July 2007, 22:02
In a communist state would we have the right to bear arm's or be protected from illegal search and seizure's?
Ignoring the oxymoron ("communist state"), laws and their legality would be determined and enforced by the commune/community itself democratically rather than at the whim of a few individuals.


what about free speech?
Yes, I believe so.

ConfusedAntiCapitalists
8th July 2007, 22:20
I think the Constitution certainly has it's good points, but i hate when people use "It's not constitutional" of even worse "That's not what the founding fathers had in mind" when they are debating.

I mean..is that really an answer?

If those white men dead for centuries wouldn't agree with it it's not even debatable?

Faux Real
8th July 2007, 22:54
The Constitution served the States well from the Revolutionary days up until the 20th century, it can sure use an upgrade now though. Many of the Amendments don't even seem to be guaranteed to everyone...

RedJacobin
8th July 2007, 23:37
Originally posted by Edric O+July 08, 2007 08:54 pm--> (Edric O @ July 08, 2007 08:54 pm)
[email protected] 08, 2007 03:26 am
whether the founding fathers were progressive figures (ex: there's a book by the Trotskyist Alan Woods with a ridiculous cover that puts Marx's portrait alongside that of the slave-owning pedophile rapist Thomas Jefferson)
Of course the founders of the US were progressive (please stop calling them "founding fathers" - it does highlight the patriarchal nature of their society, but calling any political figure "father" is too orwellian for my taste). They were bourgeois revolutionaries living in a time when the bourgeoisie played a progressive historical role. Of course, that period ended in the 19th century in the West, and the bourgeoisie has been reactionary for over a century, but that's another issue. [/b]
Bourgeois revolutionaries? Washington was a slaveowner. Four of the first five presidents were slaveowners. Their revolution established the political supremacy of the Southern slaveowning class (through the 3/5s compromise that granted disproportionate legislative power to the South). It wasn’t even an anti-colonial revolt. It was a revolt for the sake of better extending colonialism. One of the gripes against King George III from the Declaration of Independence:


He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.
The Civil War, which established the power of the Northern capitalists over the Southern planters, was the bourgeois revolution in the U.S., not the War of Independence. And even that was very limited and incomplete, with Hayes-Tilden agreement, the unwillingness to break up and redistribute the estates of the planters, and the setting up of Jim Crow segregation.

The bourgeois revolutionaries in US history are figures like Frederick Douglass, William Lloyd Garrison, and John Brown, not Washington, Madison, and Jefferson. There is nothing to celebrate about the U.S. War of Independence and the figures who led it.

One additional point: I think says a lot about the conservative politics of leftists, whether they are the revisionists in the CPUSA or Alan Wood's Trotskyists, when they uphold the founders of the US as something that they're not. It exposes their reformism and their reluctance to break with everything represented by the red-white-and-blue: slavery, genocide, and capitalist imperialism. In other words, they are not revolutionaries.