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Lamanov
6th July 2007, 17:34
I entered a discussion recently and I was asked "how many classes are there in Bosnian society" [my country]. This was my responce, so I thought it might come in handy to anyone, not only people who live here. Here it goes:



How many classes are there in Bosnian society?

For the sake of argument, I'll have to remind you how Bosnia in its essential being as a society is no different then most of the planet. Of course, it has its specific elements, like any other, so that fact might cause confusion. Depending on the perspective, some people tend to mix concept of a 'class' with other expressions used to characterise or classify different 'layers' of existing society.

Anyway, there are two basic classes, as they are determined from the standpoint of the capital - labor relation, the essential relation of capitalist society:

1.) capitalist class (people who are primary 'agents of capital'; they as such set in motion the circulation of capital, and as they do that they purchase labor power; throughout history it was shown how it's not necessary that agents of capital have to be private personas, because states themselves - just like corporations, shareholders, etc. - can takeover capital accumulation and control it as private 'bourgeois' do; they vary from small capitalists who own, for exaple, coffee shops which run on 5-9 workers, to big capitalists and companies who employ hundreds and thousands of people; they might 'make' fairly different amounts of money, but, in relation to labor, they have one and the same intrest: keeping the workers at work, capital at motion, market at open)

2.) working class (for all of you who might think that working class is necessarily a group of people with blue caps or yellow helmets and dirty jumpsuits, worker is actually anyone who has to sell his/her labor power in order to survive; those who are unable to do that because they are out of work - unemployed - they themselves are an integral part of the working class because from the standpoint of capital, they are just another commodity which by their own increasing of ''supply'' they decrease the price of that commodity [labor power]; working class includes former workers [on pensions] and future workers [students]); this class includes both 'blue' and 'white collar' - division introduced by the constant shift towards the extraction of relative surplus value in the last century; this division is purely technical and it reflects labor division and its impact on society as a whole, but it does not change how any of these 'parts' of one and the same class stand in relation to capital and its agents)

3.) between these two classes there exists a 'space' filled with certain varieties of people who do not fit into this classic schema, but they are, as an integral part of society, under the control of existing forces created by the submission of latter (workers) to the former (capitalists) - to be exact, under the control of capital; first of all, there are peasants, a 'layer' of society which directly escapes labor - capital relation because it is not forced to live in direct submission to capital exploitation, but it itself in order to satisfy its needs has to put its energy and time to 'compete' on the market (not it the 'classic' sense; it actually has to sell a part of its own use values in order to recieve back a part of use values it cannot itself produce), and thus, it is compelled to put itself under the forces of exchange - i.e. market; peasants in Bosnia comprise about half of the population, but in central, west, north and southwest Europe, that number is below 15%; peasants are constantly decreasing, and small farm production is constantly replaced by 'industrial' farms that recquire - of course - capitalists and workers who work for them; after this, there is a variety of 'labor aristocracy', 'upper middle class', small part of the population who are themselves sellers on labor market, but who are a part of the 'management' (managers), and since their skills are fairly priced, they tend to defend the existing system established at work; of course, they are rewarded for that, but remember they are still a small part; there is also a small number of people that live off a small rent, but they don't exploit labor power;

As you can see, the difference between the new and the old proletariat is the fact that the new proletariat might dress itself and smell like the bourgeois class, that it might endulge the same cultural 'heights', that it might even 'look rich', 'feel' like it, that it might look 'differentiated' and thus appear to postmodernist 'thinkers' as a 'whole bunch of classes', but it remains that both old and new were and are a basic class of producers who have nothing to do but to sell their labor power and reproduce themselves as commodities, not only on the labor market, but through their whole existing life colonized by capital.

"Absolute poverity of given society might go down, but the relative poverity remains as such" (K. Marx, Paris Manuscripts, 1844 - paraphrase).

Sugar Hill Kevis
7th July 2007, 16:29
Seymour Martin Lipset "the displaced masses"

hajduk
28th August 2007, 13:00
i already discuse with DJ-TC about this thread on revleft west balkan and i not agree with him becouse it is very hard to make calssification of classes in Bosnia becouse social situation is not so simple (when he read this he will acusing me that i am nationalist :D which i not)
you see there is more levels of various social moving in Bosnia which are not strongly connected with his theory about classes
somethimes structure of Bosnian society become like DJ-TC said but not for long time
most of time Bosnian society is in transition which not alloved society to become one homogenic structure
so in the manner of speaking about classes there is some levels which on first impression can give you picture that there is some classes but that is just blink and nothing else
any time when consument basket in BiH become more expensive, levels of social structure changing in whole new position
you see in a same time in Bosnia you have classes and you dont have classes at all
you will better understand this if you live in Bosnia or any state in transition
the social structure in Bosnia is like AURORA BOREALIS, changing every time
so it is very hard to say there is classes in Bosnia when nothing is not connected beetwen them like in EX-YU

Lamanov
28th August 2007, 13:30
Originally posted by hajduk+--> (hajduk)...when he read this he will acusing me that i am nationalist...[/b]

No, in this case, you're just being an idiot. (But it is kind of peculiar you feel the need to repeat that all the time.)


hajduk
...transition which not alloved society to become one homogenic structure so in the manner of speaking about classes there is some levels which on first impression can give you picture that there is some classes but that is just blink and nothing else...

I'll give this thread one or two days before a dozen of people come by and tell you that you obviously don't know what classes actually are.

I'll start: classes are not "homogenic structures", they are a relationship in the production process - relationship to the means of production.

hajduk
28th August 2007, 15:39
Originally posted by DJ-TC+August 28, 2007 12:30 pm--> (DJ-TC @ August 28, 2007 12:30 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected]
...when he read this he will acusing me that i am nationalist...

No, in this case, you're just being an idiot. (But it is kind of peculiar you feel the need to repeat that all the time.)


hajduk
...transition which not alloved society to become one homogenic structure so in the manner of speaking about classes there is some levels which on first impression can give you picture that there is some classes but that is just blink and nothing else...

I'll give this thread one or two days before a dozen of people come by and tell you that you obviously don't know what classes actually are.

I'll start: classes are not "homogenic structures", they are a relationship in the production process - relationship to the means of production. [/b]
becouse you continuing to insolt me i told you that you are MOMAK MLAD to understand transition in society :D

Black Flag Rising
28th August 2007, 15:55
Originally posted by hajduk+August 28, 2007 02:39 pm--> (hajduk @ August 28, 2007 02:39 pm)
Originally posted by DJ-TC+August 28, 2007 12:30 pm--> (DJ-TC @ August 28, 2007 12:30 pm)
[email protected]
...when he read this he will acusing me that i am nationalist...

No, in this case, you're just being an idiot. (But it is kind of peculiar you feel the need to repeat that all the time.)


hajduk
...transition which not alloved society to become one homogenic structure so in the manner of speaking about classes there is some levels which on first impression can give you picture that there is some classes but that is just blink and nothing else...

I'll give this thread one or two days before a dozen of people come by and tell you that you obviously don't know what classes actually are.

I'll start: classes are not "homogenic structures", they are a relationship in the production process - relationship to the means of production. [/b]
becouse you continuing to insolt me i told you that you are MOMAK MLAD to understand transition in society :D [/b]
He is not insulting you, he is presenting an argument that you should do well to adress other than say that he is "accusing you of being a nationalist" which he is not, and that he is insulting you, which he is not.

If you have an argument towards the statement that classes are not "homogenic structures", as DJ-TC as argued, do so without posting something so useless.

hajduk
28th August 2007, 16:01
Originally posted by Black Flag Rising+August 28, 2007 02:55 pm--> (Black Flag Rising @ August 28, 2007 02:55 pm)
Originally posted by hajduk+August 28, 2007 02:39 pm--> (hajduk @ August 28, 2007 02:39 pm)
Originally posted by DJ-[email protected] 28, 2007 12:30 pm

[email protected]
...when he read this he will acusing me that i am nationalist...

No, in this case, you're just being an idiot. (But it is kind of peculiar you feel the need to repeat that all the time.)


hajduk
...transition which not alloved society to become one homogenic structure so in the manner of speaking about classes there is some levels which on first impression can give you picture that there is some classes but that is just blink and nothing else...

I'll give this thread one or two days before a dozen of people come by and tell you that you obviously don't know what classes actually are.

I'll start: classes are not "homogenic structures", they are a relationship in the production process - relationship to the means of production.
becouse you continuing to insolt me i told you that you are MOMAK MLAD to understand transition in society :D [/b]
He is not insulting you, he is presenting an argument that you should do well to adress other than say that he is "accusing you of being a nationalist" which he is not, and that he is insulting you, which he is not.

If you have an argument towards the statement that classes are not "homogenic structures", as DJ-TC as argued, do so without posting something so useless. [/b]
black flag
question
DO YOU LIVE IN A STATE WHICH IS IN TRANSITION?

about insolting
me and DJ-TC discuse in POLITIC forum on thread UNRESOLVED WAR CRIMES so check it out why i say that he going to insolt me which he did

Lamanov
28th August 2007, 17:11
Oh boy. :rolleyes:

Saying that you live somewhere is no argument. I could use it as counterargument and then what? It's just like when he said "I lived komunizmm", or something similar, in defence of Titoist Yugoslavia.

How about responding to this (besides calling me a "young lad"):


Originally posted by DJ-TC
I'll start: classes are not "homogenic structures", they are a relationship in the production process - relationship to the means of production.

hajduk
29th August 2007, 14:29
i didnt mean that lot of revlefters are not worth of it to argue about classes becouse they are not graduate
i mean that is impossible to make classification about classes in Bosnia how DJ-TC thought
WHY?
when state like mine is in transition it is impossible to got any results which will give you the answer how many classes do we have in Bosnia
becouse society in transition is always changing and nothing is solid for comparation
example
gipsyes who begging on the streets
which class they belong?
working class? or they are uneployment?
kids which criminals sell on trafficking for pedofiles
working class? or they are uneployment to
non formal prostituts
working class?
etc etc etc etc
methodology which DJ-TC use is obsolyte

sorry comrades if you feal insolt for what i told to DJ-TC but he insolt me lot of time before so this what i say to him is nothing what he told to me

Lamanov
29th August 2007, 16:44
:huh: Wait. :lol: What?


Originally posted by hajduk+--> (hajduk)working class? or they are uneployment?[/b]

First off, it's "unemployed", and duuh, they're working class too. (I mentioned that in above text.) In fact, unemployment is crucial, organic part in process of exploitation of labor.


Originally posted by [email protected]
methodology which DJ-TC use is obsolyte

Again, it's "obsolete", and keep in mind that probably 99% of members use similar or same "obsolete" methods to reach same conslusions.


hajduk
becouse society in transition is always changing and nothing is solid for comparation

That's because you obviously don't know where to look "for comparison".

hajduk
29th August 2007, 17:03
Originally posted by DJ-TC+August 29, 2007 03:44 pm--> (DJ-TC @ August 29, 2007 03:44 pm) :huh: Wait. :lol: What?


Originally posted by hajduk+--> (hajduk)working class? or they are uneployment?[/b]

First off, it's "unemployed", and duuh, they're working class too. (I mentioned that in above text.) In fact, unemployment is crucial, organic part in process of exploitation of labor.


[email protected]
methodology which DJ-TC use is obsolyte

Again, it's "obsolete", and keep in mind that probably 99% of members use similar or same "obsolete" methods to reach same conslusions.


hajduk
becouse society in transition is always changing and nothing is solid for comparation

That's because you obviously don't know where to look "for comparison". [/b]
those who use this methodology are on right course becouse they speak about states where is okay to use that kind of methodology
but YOUR methodology is OBSOLETE (thank you for this :D ) becouse you cant use him for Bosnia becouse our society is mixed with socialism and capitalism and always change, so in that manner no mather how god will you have its impossible to make any results about classes,you just saw some blinks which make you to think there is something...

Lamanov
29th August 2007, 17:15
Originally posted by [email protected] 29, 2007 04:03 pm
...becouse you cant use him for Bosnia becouse our society is mixed with socialism and capitalism and always change...

False. Our society is capitalist. Period. Our society was (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=70098) capitalist. Period.

We have "pure" capitalist relations of production (relations that determine class composition) just like states in the 'West', and just like other "transitional" states, Russa and states of Eastern Europe.

P.S.

Your logic is weak beyond comprehension. If we use same methodology, then it's impossible for "my" method to be "incorrect" and someone esle's to be "correct" - since it is a same method. It could only be that our conclusions are different, and some incorrect.

hajduk
29th August 2007, 19:06
i told you DJ-TC that is impossible to make conclusions like you say about classes in our socitey becouse world sociologist (with whom i have occasions to speak lot of time about this thread) use Bosnia like social laboratory for own scientific research and you know that and i know that
those so called sociologist using us like laboratory mouses and i have occasion to see how do that and trust me it is very very creepy
so i dont give fuck about his oppinion but i see what they doing and they will do that again and again and again and again with words "thank you and have nice day"
so on that is my point about your work,which very god, but you cant use him on our society becouse it is impossible to make any results when those suckers changing our society every month to see how we behave in conditions of laboratory enviroment (and that is our state) which is simulation of real society
WELCOME TO THE NEW WORLD ORDER COMRADE DJ-TC :mellow:

Lamanov
29th August 2007, 23:25
Originally posted by hajduk+August 29, 2007 06:06 pm--> (hajduk @ August 29, 2007 06:06 pm) ...use Bosnia like social laboratory for own scientific research and you know that and i know that... [/b]

Ehh. No I don't.


Originally posted by hajduk+--> (hajduk)...those so called sociologist using us like laboratory mouses and i have occasion to see how do that and trust me it is very very creepy...[/b]

Sure, sure... :rolleyes: [Oh boy.]


[email protected]
so i dont give fuck about his oppinion but i see what they doing and they will do that again and again and again and again with words "thank you and have nice day" so on that is my point about your work,which very god, but you cant use him on our society becouse it is impossible to make any results when those suckers changing our society every month to see how we behave in conditions of laboratory enviroment (and that is our state) which is simulation of real society

Yeeah... :rolleyes: [Too much Wachowski Brothers.]

Soo... did any of those workers becoming capitalists and capitalists becoming workers appear in your he... Khm!... I mean, did you meet them? I didn't... not one.


hajduk
WELCOME TO THE NEW WORLD ORDER COMRADE DJ-TC :mellow:

Yep... :wacko:

hajduk
30th August 2007, 13:33
DJ-TC this is not some theory conspiracy like you whant to present becouse i didnt speak about blockbuster movies, this all what i say for them is metaphor ;) dont take it literarly :D i speak about seminars where those so called scientists make theory and that theory whant to put in reality by social experiments for.. i dont know...experimenting with new drugs (Prozac,Vicodin),making organization like UN to observe behavior of society in extreme conditions like wars,economy,inflation etc.
So they put sociology in a whole new level,and right know our state is experiment (not like in movies,like you think :rolleyes: :D ),then like connection of many NGO with science organisations which they do interwiews with some target groups in main citys,you follow me?So when they do interwiews they make statistic results and that is it.
Comprende?

yeah and wich class belong NGO-s?
Working class or uneployments class? :D