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Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg
6th July 2007, 16:45
How many times has the doctor gets paid (i know theres no money but bare with me) as the same as a binman been argued against us.

I was reading somwhere on the internet that one communist claimed they'd bothe be equal as they are both valubale contributions to society, their both humans etc. and to this the other replied

"I think that you have misunderstood the teaching on sharing. you say that everyone should get the same pwy a binman and a doctor? this is comleatly wrong. what is taught to us is "from each according to his ability to each according to his needs" therefore a doctor would get much more money than a binman because he is more able."

What are your views on this

bezdomni
6th July 2007, 18:42
To pay a doctor the same as a binman would be contrary to the labor theory of value.

The labor of a doctor is more value than the labor of a binman, because more labor-time has been invested in the training of the doctor.

Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg
6th July 2007, 19:02
a i believe the ltv is complicated....


could someone explain it, sort of dumbed down!!!

Led Zeppelin
6th July 2007, 19:19
The second part of that quote makes this whole discussion pointless; "from each according to his ability to each according to his needs", if both can take according to their needs, it's not important.

So basically that person is an idiot.

Kropotkin Has a Posse
6th July 2007, 19:24
To pay a doctor the same as a binman would be contrary to the labor theory of value.

The labor of a doctor is more value than the labor of a binman, because more labor-time has been invested in the training of the doctor.
Hey wait a minute, who are you to decide what labour is more important? If there were no binmen to deal with garbage, doctors would have many more cases of infectious diseases to deal with.

When people receive according to need, it doesn't entail getting the "same," necessarily, it entails getting what they need.

Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg
6th July 2007, 19:29
but, apart from the want of chelleng and to save lives, why would one bother training to become a doctor...


im just playing the devils advocate here.



also if there was a shortage of dr.s what would happen...if a society was based on maximun individual freedom how could it cope with demands

Kropotkin Has a Posse
6th July 2007, 19:42
People who become doctors because they want to earn money aren't worthy of taking the Hippocratic Oath.

And think about people who may have wanted to become doctors under capitalism but couldn't because of the costs of education.

Led Zeppelin
6th July 2007, 19:42
Because they want to help people and like the profession? I mean, hell, if I had the possiblity I'd become a doctor, I think it's a very interesting subject.

RedJacobin
6th July 2007, 20:01
Originally posted by Y Chwildro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg quoting some dude on another [email protected] 06, 2007 03:45 pm
"I think that you have misunderstood the teaching on sharing. you say that everyone should get the same pwy a binman and a doctor? this is comleatly wrong. what is taught to us is "from each according to his ability to each according to his needs" therefore a doctor would get much more money than a binman because he is more able."
This is a misunderstanding of "From each according to ability, to each according to need." In communist society, where this principle is operative, there's no connection between individual production and consumption. Everyone contributes as much as they want to and receives what they need to survive and develop to their fullest potential.

The doctor/binman scenario doesn't apply in communist society, because the hard division between mental labor (doctor) and manual labor (binman) would have been abolished.

In socialist society, where the principle is "from each according to ability, to each according to work," a doctor would be paid more than the binman because more labor (years of education and so on) is embodied in his labor power. At the same time, there would be a struggle to break down the contradiction between mental and manual labor, to replace the dominant idea that remuneration should be based on work with the idea of "serve the people," and to move towards communist society.

From Critique of the Gotha Programme:


What we have to deal with here is a communist society, not as it has developed on its own foundations, but, on the contrary, just as it emerges from capitalist society; which is thus in every respect, economically, morally, and intellectually, still stamped with the birthmarks of the old society from whose womb it emerges. Accordingly, the individual producer receives back from society -- after the deductions have been made -- exactly what he gives to it. What he has given to it is his individual quantum of labor. For example, the social working day consists of the sum of the individual hours of work; the individual labor time of the individual producer is the part of the social working day contributed by him, his share in it. He receives a certificate from society that he has furnished such-and-such an amount of labor (after deducting his labor for the common funds); and with this certificate, he draws from the social stock of means of consumption as much as the same amount of labor cost. The same amount of labor which he has given to society in one form, he receives back in another.

Here, obviously, the same principle prevails as that which regulates the exchange of commodities, as far as this is exchange of equal values. Content and form are changed, because under the altered circumstances no one can give anything except his labor, and because, on the other hand, nothing can pass to the ownership of individuals, except individual means of consumption. But as far as the distribution of the latter among the individual producers is concerned, the same principle prevails as in the exchange of commodity equivalents: a given amount of labor in one form is exchanged for an equal amount of labor in another form.

Hence, equal right here is still in principle -- bourgeois right, although principle and practice are no longer at loggerheads, while the exchange of equivalents in commodity exchange exists only on the average and not in the individual case.

In spite of this advance, this equal right is still constantly stigmatized by a bourgeois limitation. The right of the producers is proportional to the labor they supply; the equality consists in the fact that measurement is made with an equal standard, labor.

But one man is superior to another physically, or mentally, and supplies more labor in the same time, or can labor for a longer time; and labor, to serve as a measure, must be defined by its duration or intensity, otherwise it ceases to be a standard of measurement. This equal right is an unequal right for unequal labor. It recognizes no class differences, because everyone is only a worker like everyone else; but it tacitly recognizes unequal individual endowment, and thus productive capacity, as a natural privilege. It is, therefore, a right of inequality, in its content, like every right. Right, by its very nature, can consist only in the application of an equal standard; but unequal individuals (and they would not be different individuals if they were not unequal) are measurable only by an equal standard insofar as they are brought under an equal point of view, are taken from one definite side only -- for instance, in the present case, are regarded only as workers and nothing more is seen in them, everything else being ignored. Further, one worker is married, another is not; one has more children than another, and so on and so forth. Thus, with an equal performance of labor, and hence an equal in the social consumption fund, one will in fact receive more than another, one will be richer than another, and so on. To avoid all these defects, right, instead of being equal, would have to be unequal.

But these defects are inevitable in the first phase of communist society as it is when it has just emerged after prolonged birth pangs from capitalist society. Right can never be higher than the economic structure of society and its cultural development conditioned thereby.

In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished; after labor has become not only a means of life but life's prime want; after the productive forces have also increased with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly -- only then then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!

Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg
6th July 2007, 20:10
Originally posted by fats+July 06, 2007 07:01 pm--> (fats @ July 06, 2007 07:01 pm)
Y Chwildro Comiwnyddol [email protected] 06, 2007 03:45 pm
"I think that you have misunderstood the teaching on sharing. you say that everyone should get the same pwy a binman and a doctor? this is comleatly wrong. what is taught to us is "from each according to his ability to each according to his needs" therefore a doctor would get much more money than a binman because he is more able."
This is a misunderstanding of "From each according to ability, to each according to need." In communist society, where this principle is operative, there's no connection between individual production and consumption. Everyone contributes as much as they want to and receives what they need to survive and develop to their fullest potential.

[/b]
But how would this society react to demands, if its based on volontary labor?

bezdomni
6th July 2007, 20:11
Originally posted by Juan Sin [email protected] 06, 2007 06:24 pm

To pay a doctor the same as a binman would be contrary to the labor theory of value.

The labor of a doctor is more value than the labor of a binman, because more labor-time has been invested in the training of the doctor.
Hey wait a minute, who are you to decide what labour is more important? If there were no binmen to deal with garbage, doctors would have many more cases of infectious diseases to deal with.

When people receive according to need, it doesn't entail getting the "same," necessarily, it entails getting what they need.
I am not saying doctors are more important than garbage collectors. Every laborer plays an important role in society, and all labor is equally important. However, all labor is not equally valuable.

Not every doctor is a millionaire. Go to a free clinic, and those doctors do not live much better than any other labor aristocrat. The rich doctors are really more or less managers with medical expertise.

The health service industry is just like any other service industry, and plenty of them are proles and many are quite impoverished.

However...it still requires much more training and requires more labor-time of other people (teachers, for example) to "make" a doctor.

For example, you are going to pay more for a computer than you will for a calculator because it took more time and resources to make the computer.

Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg
6th July 2007, 20:17
so how would a doctor be rewared when money is aboilshed..

and also pls answear my previous question

bezdomni
6th July 2007, 20:26
so how would a doctor be rewared when money is aboilshed..

You are confusing socialism with communism.

Under communism, a person could easily be a doctor on a thursday and a binman on a friday. Although, garbage collection will probably not even be done by manual labor in communist society...

With the abolition of class society, people will have time and resources to delve into their true interests. There will be more people to do fewer things, therefore, people will be able to study medicine or science or literature instead of hitting a button for eight hours a day.

In communist society, doctors will be doctors because they want to be doctors.

however, under socialism, there will still need to be economic incentive for a person to be a doctor. It requires a great deal of labor and resources to train a doctor, therefore, the doctor's labor will be more valuable.

Read Wage Labour and Capital. It answers these questions very well.

RedJacobin
6th July 2007, 20:31
Originally posted by Y Chwildro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg+July 06, 2007 07:10 pm--> (Y Chwildro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg @ July 06, 2007 07:10 pm)
Originally posted by fats+July 06, 2007 07:01 pm--> (fats @ July 06, 2007 07:01 pm)
Y Chwildro Comiwnyddol [email protected] 06, 2007 03:45 pm
"I think that you have misunderstood the teaching on sharing. you say that everyone should get the same pwy a binman and a doctor? this is comleatly wrong. what is taught to us is "from each according to his ability to each according to his needs" therefore a doctor would get much more money than a binman because he is more able."
This is a misunderstanding of "From each according to ability, to each according to need." In communist society, where this principle is operative, there's no connection between individual production and consumption. Everyone contributes as much as they want to and receives what they need to survive and develop to their fullest potential.[/b]
But how would this society react to demands, if its based on volontary labor?[/b]
I don't understand the question. What demands?


Y Chwildro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg
so how would a doctor be rewared when money is aboilshed..
The whole idea that someone gets a "reward" for work would no longer exist under communism. The link between work and remuneration is broken. People work cooperatively and voluntarily to serve society and they get what they need to survive (and thrive).

Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg
6th July 2007, 21:30
Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 07:31 pm

But how would this society react to demands, if its based on volontary labor?
I don't understand the question. What demands?

[/quote]
A lack of workers say in a sector i.e road sweepers because theyve all trained to have better jobs. Would a local commite based on volonteers sweep the roads or whatever

RedJacobin
6th July 2007, 22:11
Originally posted by Y Chwildro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg+July 06, 2007 08:30 pm--> (Y Chwildro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg @ July 06, 2007 08:30 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 07:31 pm


Y Chwildro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg
But how would this society react to demands, if its based on volontary labor?
I don't understand the question. What demands?
A lack of workers say in a sector i.e road sweepers because theyve all trained to have better jobs. Would a local commite based on volonteers sweep the roads or whatever [/b]
Under communism, there wouldn't be the hard divisions of labor that exist in all class societies. So, just because road sweepers would be trained in other jobs, that doesn't mean they could no longer sweep roads. On the flip side, just because some people are trained in medicine, that doesn't mean they couldn't spend some of their time as road sweepers. The whole idea of having fixed professions (especially with some jobs based solely on mental labor and other jobs based solely on manual labor) would be broken down. All of this would be cooperatively decided, including through local committees and other kinds of organization.

Janus
8th July 2007, 00:14
This arguement is brought up very regularly. Check the stick in this forum:
High school commie's guide to basic questions (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=25500)

bloody_capitalist_sham
8th July 2007, 00:37
Originally posted by Y Chwildro Comiwnyddol [email protected] 06, 2007 07:02 pm
a i believe the ltv is complicated....


could someone explain it, sort of dumbed down!!!
All commodities have had human labor expended on them, and the cost of that labor determines the value of the commodity.

So, to understand the exchange value of a cotton shirt, you take the amount of labor need to grow the cotton, say $1, then the amount of labor to harvest the cotton needed, another $1, then the amount of labor to transport the cotton, $1, then the amount of labor to turn to cotton into the shirt, say $4. That means the shirt has an exchange value equal to $7. And can be sold on the market for $7.

Its at the point of production that the workers add the value to the object and which the worker receives in wages less than its actual value, which the capitalist pockets.

I think its right.