is anything by humans good?

[idonotknowme]

here is my question, is anything by humans good we seem to corrupt/control anything we encounter, and to simply anger some peoples, i ask this question of you butt poops

[Outmoded]

Okay, first of all, 'butt poops' really isn't a great way to address anyone, especially when you're trying to pose a philosophical question.

But in response to your question, putting references to Sainthood aside (flawless examles of human goodness), it would be hard to show any example of basic human goodness. The closest we can get is individuals or groups working to right the actions of others (charities, humanitarians, etc).

Humanity as a whole is a corrupting, destructive influence on everything it touches, that much we can be certain of, but at the same time, it is this destructive nature that inspires some of us to truly become 'good' people.

[Dimentio]

Does good and evil really exist? :D

[Outmoded]

Well, we have conepts of good and evil, although these can vary, or not even exist, from person to person, there are general acts and morals that can be deemed 'good' by the majority and those that can equally be deemed 'bad' by the majority.

Giving a starving man food - Good

Slave labour - Bad

There are other people who mnay have different veiws on those two acts and deem them to have different moral attributes through different persoonal ethics and standards, but overall, the majority would hold the same view.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Serpent:


Does good and evil really exist?

No stop that; you know this sort of question only makes me post annoying questiosn like: what exactly are you denying/admitting?

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

IdontKnow:


here is my question, is anything [done] by humans good; we seem to corrupt/control anything we encounter

Finding a cure for smallpox will do for starters -- the list of good things us humans have done is in fact endless.

[And, any more 'butt poops' will be deleted.]

[redcannon]

When you look at humanity as a whole, it is easy to get the idea that we are all greedy, deceiving, ruthless bastards who have no qualms about killing our neighbors to get their dollar. But when you look at a human being as an individual, you can find a lot of morals and values, and somewhat of a feeling to help other people (obviously, the amount of these things veries from person to person.)

In our era of Capitalism, is is easy to think of human beings as evil. Indeed, some of them are. But let's pose the same question in a few decades, and I think our perception of humanity will be astonishingly different.

[Faux Real]

The Matrix:

Originally posted by Agent Smith
I’d like to share a revelation that I’ve had, during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you aren’t actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with its surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply, and multiply until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You are a plague, and we... are the cure.

Ever since the first civilizations we've been "viruses", such as Egypt/Mesopotamia. Humans have been subject to rulers who have been self-indulgent. Nothing significantly worthwhile comes to mind that we can accomplish in regards to good with the mindset the majority of advanced countries carry. If we continue headed down capitalism and greed we'll eventually drive ourselves extinct, along with many other living things on the planet.

This is not to say we can't "cure" ourselves. That would require much more mainstream egalitarian thought and bonding with our surrounding environment and society, in addition to a classless society.

[Black Cross]

Originally posted by rev0lt+July 05, 2007 07:59 pm--> (rev0lt @ July 05, 2007 07:59 pm)The Matrix:

Agent Smith
I’d like to share a revelation that I’ve had, during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you aren’t actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with its surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply, and multiply until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You are a plague, and we... are the cure.

Ever since the first civilizations we've been "viruses", such as Egypt/Mesopotamia. Humans have been subject to rulers who have been self-indulgent. Nothing significantly worthwhile comes to mind that we can accomplish in regards to good with the mindset the majority of advanced countries carry. If we continue headed down capitalism and greed we'll eventually drive ourselves extinct, along with many other living things on the planet.

This is not to say we can't "cure" ourselves. That would require much more mainstream egalitarian thought and bonding with our surrounding environment and society, in addition to a classless society.[/b]
Haha, that's the first time I have ever seen or heard anyone quote the matrix in a debate on the philosophy of good and evil, or any debate for that matter.

But I do see your point, though it is a bit melodramatic. And it is true, that our natural need for self-indulgence will be our undoing. Materials on this earth don't last forever, unfourtunately, and if we keep driving our gas guzzling cars, making 48,000 calories of food, per capita, per day (much more than any person I know could eat), and generally wasting resources, we won't have a world left. If socialism and asceticism don't come soon, I doubt we'll have many generations left.

[Faux Real]

There's plenty of Marxist themes in the Matrix, a reason why its one of the few Hollywood movies I've enjoyed. :P

We do have the tools to turn our situation around, but yes it does require economic and social alternatives to capitalism.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Re0lt:


Ever since the first civilizations we've been "viruses",

We are nothing like viruses. Viruses cannot revolt -- we can, as your name suggests.

They cannot create the technology and organised opposition to free themselves from slavery to nature and to class society.

Sure, there has been much evil, but that does not mean we should ignore the good things we humans have done -- obliterated smallpox, all but eradicated polio, wiped out rural ignorance (as Marx called it) in many parts of the world, created communication systems that allow you to gripe....

[Not entirely illiterate]

Personally, I believe that humanity is a conception that stretches far behind earthly matters such as physique, lifestyle, society or even such semi-ethereal concepts such as conscious thought, emotion and other types of energy-transfers by neural means.

There is a concept in Islamic thought called 'Fithrah', which is a state of virtue that is inherent in humanity. All children are born with Fithrah, muslim or kaffir, and the worship of God is inherent and it is only outside influences that can sway the naturally virtuous from such a path. Myself, I would go further and say that birth is a metaphor where the concept of humanity goes through a portal from the ethereal and perfected, into the chthonic realm. By putting on an organic material guise upon our human core, we have thus taken a step away from the true essence of humanity, which in itself is inconcieveable unless you are in that state already or have attained a higher sense of being.

The only way for a human being, thus, is to devoid herself of her attachment to the chthonic form. For most transcendent schools of thought, this is pursued through asceticism. A form of self-annihilation, that I also encourage, although I do not consider it self-annihilation as much as dropping a burdening rucksack filled with organic matter.

Although life on earth in a completely ethereal form (excluding its negative dark twin, incorporeal undeath) is my personal ideal, I know that it is a difficult ideal to achieve.

Concepts such as nation-states, ethnic groups, languages (although only to a certain amount, I believe that there are languages that exist on a higher basis than those created through the human speech apparatus), economics, laws, most sciences, all these things that are paramount to human society are anchors, manifestations of chthonic attachment (like the Buddhist concept of saṃsāra). I eschew all these things in my personal search for non-physical existence. Instead, I praise concepts such as abstract art, transcendental schools of thought (far too many are clouded by religion, however, also a chthonic attachment even though it is an attachment to an ethereal ideal), physical and mental training that allows one to stretch beyond the physical weave of reality; Taijiquan, Vipassana, Zazen, Dhikr... you get the idea.

Anything that allows one to grasp back towards the ethereal, unbound state of being is to me the epitome of what can be achieved in this imperfect state of being that all living creatures reside in. Returning to the root.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Be careful comrade, we restrict preachers to the OI section.

[Cheung Mo]

Not particularly, but to be fair, even the nuclear bomb is less evil than anything Yhwh's produced.

[Not entirely illiterate]

Be careful comrade, we restrict preachers to the OI section.

My apologies if I am ranting, I shall attempt to be concise in the future. I wish, however, to express that I do not pose an opposing ideology here. I am an anarchist, although my motives for being one is perhaps of the unusual sort. National borders, monetary economy, differences between ethnic groups, genders and ages is something I eschew in my quest for individual self-mastery.


Not particularly, but to be fair, even the nuclear bomb is less evil than anything Yhwh's produced.

YHWH is a figment of imagination to me, and so is the concept of evil. Still, it isn't the illusion in itself which is harmful, it is when people react to it when bad things may appear as a consequence. Any action based upon flawed logic is the same, and there is only one cure about that. If you take a group of ignorant people and tell them of a treasure hidden on the other end of the rainbow, you will probably see some of them gather pick-axes and spades. If these people know, however, that a rainbow neither has a beginning nor and end rooted on the ground, the lie will simply slide off without affecting them.

An atomic weapon, on the other hand, engulf the wise and the foolish within its fireball without discretion.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Cheung, who are you replying to??

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Not Entirely, fair enough, but remember the place to rant is in OI, and any confirmed ranters are restricted.

[Black Cross]

Originally posted by Cheung [email protected] 06, 2007 10:57 am
Not particularly, but to be fair, even the nuclear bomb is less evil than anything Yhwh's produced.
Wait, YHWH as in yaweh? God? Well, if you do believe in god then that is an irrational statement. And if you don't believe in god, then he hasn't created anything. That's a kind of catch-22 comrade.

[Mariam]

NEI:

Just wanted to correct that its called Fitrah and not Fithrah (it might be a different word after all!)

And judging by the concept of fitrah which is an inborn natural instinct that might be described in other words as humans good nature states that human beings are not evil at all, we are all born good however it is the surrounding that corrupts us.

[Not entirely illiterate]

Just wanted to correct that its called Fitrah and not Fithrah (it might be a different word after all!)

It probably is. Correction noted, thank you very much.


human beings are not evil at all, we are all born good however it is the surrounding that corrupts us.

Indeed, I agree - the difference being that humans aren't "born" (as in the sense of coming into existence) as they emerge from their mother's womb, I believe there is a human existence before this state. The process of manifesting into a physical form is taking a step downwards from our true potential. What causes this, I am not certain of, but what I am certain about is that one can ascend back to that non-physical state.

By the way, I don't recognise concepts such as good and evil at all.

[Mariam]

but what I am certain about is that one can ascend back to that non-physical state.

I know this is a bit off topic but why do you think that one should ascend back to a non-physical phase rather than transcending it?
I mean its just like in " Out of body experience" it is said that the soul is able to transcend its physical prison...that is if it does happen!
Don't we need to experience the physical before moving on to the non-physical? Is it a kind of a cycle that starts as a pre-non-physical existence then it became what we know of our physical existence and back to stage one and so forth?!


What the???

[Not entirely illiterate]

I know this is a bit off topic but why do you think that one should ascend back to a non-physical phase rather than transcending it?

Yes... quite off-topic, I know. If anyone wants to continue discussing the actual topic of the thread, I will of course resign from this discussion. Otherwise, if nobody protests, I don't see why it cannot go on?

Well, perhaps ascend is the wrong world, it is indeed a transcendence. Given the amount in which we change during our lifetimes, the post-physical ethereal state is surely not the same as the one before birth (which is such a perfected human it is hardly a human at all). So yes, transcend is the correct word to use.


Don't we need to experience the physical before moving on to the non-physical? Is it a kind of a cycle that starts as a pre-non-physical existence then it became what we know of our physical existence and back to stage one and so forth?!

Precisely. Before birth, the human is in a state of ethereal perfection, like raw marble that is shipped to the sculptor at birth, and then slowly carved into a form which eventually will wither and decay. However, everything is changing, so it isn't really going back to "stage one" as much as returning to the root. A traveler who has spent much time away from his home and return is also back where he begun, but neither him nor the home is really the same.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Not Entirely Illiterate, as I have said to you already, this is a site for militant materialists, not speculative mystics/religious nuts.

Carry on the way you are going and you risk being restricted to the OI section.

[Mariam]

Probably its my fault -which is not intended by any means- i've dragged him through that spiritualities talk!

[Not entirely illiterate]

I would like to object to being referred to as a "religious nut", since I admit to no religion. Spirituality, certainly; it is unbound by dogmas and morals that plague practically all religions. Strictly politically, I am little different to any other anarchist on this forum. And this particular thread is regarding philosophy?

Still, I realise the last posts were off-topic and it is improper forum behaviour, so I'll keep quiet for now.

[southernmissfan]

"is anything by humans good?"

I postulate that the OP's use of the phrase "butt poops" is absolutely fantastic! Proof of human goodness, if the ability to cause laughter is in fact "good".

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Not entirely, I did not refer to you as a religious nut, I merely said the following:


this is a site for militant materialists, not speculative mystics/religious nuts.

Two options you will note; it is up to you to decide which category most accurately depicts you, and then desist from preaching.

Yes, this is a forum for philosophy, but not for rehearsing mystical dogma.

OI is for that.

[Tommy-K]

Depends how you define 'good'.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Depends how you define 'define'.

[BurnTheOliveTree]

Humans have done a whole heck of a lot of good, provided you take "good" to be what advances the species. Although again, I suppose that falls prey to what is objectively good and what is subjectively good.

Bah. To take an example nearly everyone must agree with, all our advances in medicine, from the pre-historical tribes, who rubbed arm-pit sweat into eachothers wounds, up to aseptic surgery and anti-biotics.

-Alex

[MarxSchmarx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 11:11 am
Humans have done a whole heck of a lot of good, provided you take "good" to be what advances the species.
Methinks your proviso is too restrictive. I don't think Dim sum has done our species an ounce of good, but I still think it is one damned good creation of humans.

[Hate Is Art]

Good things human have done:

Chocolate, cigarettes, booze, drugs, the pill, condoms, tower bridge, fairy lights, polaroid cameras, telephones, nice clothes, good books, good films, good music.

Workers of the world - HAVE FUN.