I was bored... - so i started thinking

[Executioner1905]

I was going to Juarez and started thinking and, correct me if Im wrong, in theory couldnt communism end war. Because the 3 main causes of war are religious, ecomonic and political.
Since communism supported atheism and "discouraged" religion, this would put an end to the 1st cause.
Communist countries have a self supporting ecomony so they wouldnt rely on anyone else, hence eliminating the 2nd one.
Since communism in a way, is the eradication of centralized gov't, this would put an end to the last one.
Im probably wrong so correct me if I am.

[hazard]

You are correct brother, but not for the reasons you have cited.

Communism would create a global community of people, regardless of race, religion and creed. And most importantly, these community would not be exploited by a ruling class. One world, one nation really means no cause for war. Simply, the lines drawn to divide people would be erased, and with those lines erased so too would war be erased.

[Uhuru na Umoja]

Communism would prevent wars. Lenin himself suggested that the exploitative capitalist system was the root cause of all wars. I don't think it's quite so simple; however, it an ideal communist world (which I am not sure is attainable, at least in the near future) there would be no war.

[hazard]

uhura:

I think the argument you are making refernce to is the idea of baseline, material appeals as being the cause of wars

ie. one feudal lord went to war with another feudal lord to expand his feudal empire

since capitalism is derivetive of feusalism, this idea of amterialsim is also transfered along with it. so now capitalists go to war with other capitalists for the same reasons, and with communists to force them into the same mode of production

[Monks Aflame]

executioner... I believe your justifications are a bit over-simplified.

1) religion - people will still be religious regardless. if you speak of one country being communist, then other countries can still attack it because of their peoples' religious beliefs.

2) economic - but goods and raw materials must still be imported, no?

3) as for political... this is the reason that most 'communist' countries did enter war. cold war, vietnamese, korean... the ideal communist enviroment has no centralized government, yes, but that's your ruling. that's your form of government, and other countries will attack you for it.

if you are saying if the global society was made communist, wars wouldn't exist, then you might be right. but if the world was cast completely under any system... would there still be wars?

[Silent Eye]

It depends on how socialism is implemented.. . . if by gradual non violent means, the religion would wither away and war would not be declared as the changes would be far more subtle.

The violent revolution on the other hand, aims to destroy religion quickly and gets dragged into political and economic conflicts as the changes were not gradual and no one had time to adjust.

[Uhuru na Umoja]

Also, if communism were properly implemented the state would wither away. Beyond there being no (or at least little) personal motivation for conflict, large scale conflict such as wras would be inconceivable without a state. States cause wars, without them war would not happen.

[ravengod]

communism issupposed to be perfect
war is not included in any definition of perfection
so u are right

[Silent Eye]

I disagree, war is an element of human nature. For example, lets take Tribes. Is a tribe by any means a state? Of course not. Yet tribal warfare is bloody and ruthless. The state, i do not believe is the engineer of war, it is the people who engineer the war.

Modern day attempts to create war without people do not work.

[Wolfie]

You are right, there would be less war, the reason, equality ALL wars can be realted back to inequality, whether it be one person owning more land or one person bieng different racially.

[Palmares]

If people truly understood what communism/socialism is, then war would be reduced.

Perhaps in an ideal world it would be non-existent.

[Uhuru na Umoja]

Quote: from Silent Eye on 10:59 pm on Mar. 31, 2003
I disagree, war is an element of human nature. For example, lets take Tribes. Is a tribe by any means a state? Of course not. Yet tribal warfare is bloody and ruthless. The state, i do not believe is the engineer of war, it is the people who engineer the war.

I think it is people who engineer conflict; states turn this into war. Yes, little kids and even groups of adults may fight, but there shouldn't be war. Besides, why do people start wars? To exploit others, improve their lot in life, etc. If everyone were equal and happy, as they should be if communism worked perfectly, there would be no reason for large scale conflict. I agree that practically this would be impossible - or nearly impossible - to achieve, given human nature, but we must in our 'ideal' (perhaps unrealistic) utopian world, there would be no war.

[mentalbunny]

ravengod, no one said communism is perfect, at least not that i can remember. In fact perfection is unattainable, it's some concept we invented, a bit like God (although I'm not saying God doesn't exist, just that we created our own idea of him/her/it).

Communism should end war, through various ways that have already been mentioned, but it will be a very long time before this world is totally communist and until then there will be wars, and after then there will be wars. Humans beings can't stay in the same situation for a long time, we always want what we don't/can't have.

[Silent Eye]

But even without "official" warfare, gangs can always emerge and brawl. organized crime requires a war to fight within the nation itself. Thus war, remains a basic human instinct, from the first Cro magnon who bashed another on the head to take his food, to organized armies fighting in complex formations, they are all the same in one respect: violence. Violence is the most obvious part of war. And what are battles? They are organized fights. The route can never trully be tackled.

[mentalbunny]

Silent Eye, when the human species overcomes violence, greed and selfishness, then we are truly civilised. In the meantime I suggest we try getting there by leading by example.

[CruelVerdad]

Communism could work, but as CHE once said, communism supress the human liberty...
Maybe you will give a solution to one problem, but in the end you are generating a new one.

[Fever]

Quote: from ravengod on 1:23 pm on Mar. 31, 2003
communism issupposed to be perfect
war is not included in any definition of perfection
so u are right


There will always be war, it IS part of human nature. The fact is that communist governments are often not stable, and unstable governments are prone to revolution. But yes, in the perfect communist country there would indeed be no war.

[Uhuru na Umoja]

I think if we look at what exactly is meant by a perfect utopian society, we must accept that ideal communism would end wars. However, you could argue, along the lines of war being an essential part of human nature, that such a society would be impossible.

[Silent Eye]

Quote: from mentalbunny on 9:54 pm on April 2, 2003
Silent Eye, when the human species overcomes violence, greed and selfishness, then we are truly civilised. In the meantime I suggest we try getting there by leading by example.


That is a piper's dream i am afraid. As great and noble as it sounds, that is an impossibility, no matter how you look at it. There is always one or two who will not be kind, civilized, etc.