Trotskyism - What is it?

[Geddan]

Good or bad? What makes it different from other ideologies? What are the main theories?

[Conghaileach]

Unless I'm mistaken (which I very well could be), Trotskyism is the same as Leninism, but since Trotsky was attacked so much by Stalin the two ideologies had to be separated as much as possible.

[Kez]

CiaranB got it right basically
Theyre exactly the same, and support each other in their own arguments in terms of ideological standings
http://www.marxist.com/LeninAndTrotsky/

id encourage u to buy it, but its all online if u wanna read it or print it

[Uhuru na Umoja]

Stalinists will argue that Stalinism and Leninism are the same and Trotskyism is a deviation. However, I do not agree with this and would basically agree that Trotskyism is a form of Leninism. Nonetheless, Trotksy and Lenin did not always agree. When they did disagree, though, such as over the NEP Lenin often ideologically supported Trotsky and was only forced by pragmatism to follow a different course. Also remember that before 1917 Trotksy was a Menshevik, and therefore was not in ideological agreement with Lenin until this time. Still, his actions thereafter proved his committment to Bolshevism.

[Political Suicide]

#Moderation Mode

Moved to Theory.

Moved here (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=13&topic=710)

[Just Joe]

Quote: from TavareeshKamo on 7:37 pm on Mar. 27, 2003
CiaranB got it right basically
Theyre exactly the same, and support each other in their own arguments in terms of ideological standings
http://www.marxist.com/LeninAndTrotsky/

id encourage u to buy it, but its all online if u wanna read it or print it


i'm not questioning your position, but i think talk like this is only going to lead to another Stalin-Trotsky debate now Cassius Clay is out of OI.

[Cassius Clay]

LOL, Just-Joe would I ever turn something into a 'Stalin-Trotsky' debate (=flame war)?

No ofcourse I wouldn't. I will answer the question of what Trotskyism is. Suffice to say it is based on rascism, militarism, Imperialism and ultra-Leftism. Lenin said 'Trotskyites deceive the workers' he was right.

[Uhuru na Umoja]

Quote: from Cassius Clay on 9:34 am on Mar. 28, 2003
LOL, Just-Joe would I ever turn something into a 'Stalin-Trotsky' debate (=flame war)?

No ofcourse I wouldn't. I will answer the question of what Trotskyism is. Suffice to say it is based on rascism, militarism, Imperialism and ultra-Leftism. Lenin said 'Trotskyites deceive the workers' he was right.
Lenin also criticised Stalin. I will not bother repeating the statements in his testament, which I am sure you are well acquainted with. I just don't think quoting Lenin is the best way to attack Trotsky and defend Stalin.

[ELComandante]

I am not sure about this, but Trotsky was an imperial-socialist. That is what i have heared. I wonder what would happen if he was the succeeder of Lenin, and not Stalin. Stalin gave the communism a bad name.

[Saint-Just]

The Mensheviks, along with Trotsky suggested that October 1917 was too early for a revolution in Russia, they said a socialist revolution could only be sustained in a capitalist country.

Stalin proved this entirely wrong by turning Russia into a superpower within 20 years.

Trotksy was an opportunistin my opinion.

[Wolfie]

Trosky was a great writer and philisopher. Not quite imperial as much as a strong promoter of revolutionary armed struggle. I think he would have been slightly more liberal than Stalin if he had succeded Lenin and may have even acheived more than Stalins 5 year plans.
I think I would consider myself a Troskite because of his love, like stalin for a socialist world and for armed struggle.

[BRIN]

wasn't Trotsky more anarchistic than lennin.He was more focused on a council based goverment than totalitarism?[excuse the spelling]

[man in the red suit]

trotskyism = take over the world.....RED DOMINATION!!!

[Silent Eye]

I try not to get involved in the Trotskyist-Stalinist conflict and stick to leninism, as it is the safest of the three. No way you can go wrong by just following lenin.;)

[MAN with a RED face]

i guess trotkyism is the softer side of leninism, though both of them help in building communist russia, lenin and trotsky were rivals a number of times coz trotsky was a strong advocate to marxism's idea of evolution and not revolution which was the opposite to lenin's views.
the world should have been better if trotsky succeded lenin not by stalin.

forgive me if i was wrong:confused:

please dont mind my english(im asian):(

& 4get stalin! hes just a piece of shit!:angry:

[Som]

"The introduction of compulsory labour service is unthinkable without the application, to a greater or lesser degree, of the methods of militarisation of labour".

"We have been more than once accused of having substituted for the dictatorship of the soviets the dictatorship of our own Party. . . In this substitution of the power of the party for the power of the working class there is nothing accidental, and in reality there is no substitution at all. The Communists express the fundamental interests of the working class..."

"They [the workers' opposition] have come out with dangerous slogans. They have made a fetish of democratic principles. They have placed the workers' right to elect representatives above the party. As if the Party were not entitled to assert its dictatorship even if that dictatorship clashed with the passing moods of the workers' democracy! . . The Party is obliged to maintain its dictatorship . . . regardless of temporary vacillations even in the working class . . . The dictatorship does not base itself at every moment on the formal principle of a workers' democracy."

"If we seriously speak of planned economy, which is to acquire its unity of purpose from the center, when labor forces are assigned in accordance with the economic plan at the given stage of developement, the working masses cannot be left wandering all over Russia. They must be thrown here and there, appointed, commanded, just like soldiers" "Deserters from labour ought to to be formed into punitive battalions or put into concentration camps"

Some Trotsky quotes.

[ComandanteMario]

Much of the theory of Trotsky was good, but modern Trotskyism es the enemi of socialist progress.

[Saint-Just]

Quote: from ComandanteMario on 9:12 pm on April 3, 2003
Much of the theory of Trotsky was good, but modern Trotskyism es the enemi of socialist progress.

I disagree with Trotsky theory being 'good'. However it is an enemy to social progress. Trotskysists simply wanting to implement a state capitalist system, higher wages and 35 hour week they demand. They are ultra-left bourgeois social democrats.

[RedComrade]

Obviously Mao you must remember Stalin would have never been able to build that power if it were not for Trotsky. How so? Trotskys brillant leadership of the Red Army was the only thing that secured the fruits of the revolution. Everyone who appreciates the socialist experiment of the U.S.S.R must appreciate the true architects of the revolution, Lenin and Trotsky. While they fought a war Stalin sat on his ass in some miserably pathetic post as commisar of nationalities. It was the brillant genius Trotsky who formed a strong army from the post feudal crisis of revolution era Russia. To CC imperialism in the name of Communism is never a crime. Indeed it is our duty if you are a truly a socialist to extend our glorious ideologies as far as we can. Militarism?, if you consider building a strong military, the only way to combat an entire international class bent on your destruction, as militarism than maybe you should get out of the socialist camp and go join a Green party and whine about animal rights, revisionist scum.

[Geddan]

:D @ Redcomrade :) Good post!

[Revolution Hero]

The significance of Trotsky’s role in the Civil War shouldn’t be denied.
But his political views, which have nothing in common with Leninism, should be attacked and criticized.

[Cassius Clay]

''Obviously Mao you must remember Stalin would have never been able to build that power if it were not for Trotsky. How so? Trotskys brillant leadership of the Red Army was the only thing that secured the fruits of the revolution.''

No it wasn't. Trotsky got the sack as war commisar because he kept on messing up, his so called 'Military Specialists' often acted as fifth collums and he kept on disagreeing with the Central Committe even when he was outvoted. Stop believing what your school book tells you and read into the facts.


''Everyone who appreciates the socialist experiment of the U.S.S.R must appreciate the true architects of the revolution, Lenin and Trotsky. While they fought a war Stalin sat on his ass in some miserably pathetic post as commisar of nationalities.''

No he wasn't. Stalin led the defence of Tsaritsyn in 1919 and was awarded the highest military medal for it. He played a vital part in the east of Russia aswell against Kolchak and co.


''To CC imperialism in the name of Communism is never a crime.''

Yes it is, what you fail to understand is that it is not the duty of one particular Red Army to go and force a revolution on another group of workers. It is Imperialism if the workers are faced with a rifle behind their back. It is up to the workers of a nation to have their own revolution on their own when the circumstances are right. Not to have it forced on them. Lenin and Stalin understood this.


''Indeed it is our duty if you are a truly a socialist to extend our glorious ideologies as far as we can.''

Ultra-leftism, but not only that this is Imperialism. The Nazis thought the same, the U$ is currently doing the same in the name of 'extending our glourious ideologies'. It doesn't matter whether the cause may be just, if someone invades your homeland you fight. A question what if your own population doesn't want to fight? Afterall they've just had a revolution of their own, your not going to force them are you? Heaven forbid a Trotskyite thinking of going against the people's will.

''Militarism?, if you consider building a strong military, the only way to combat an entire international class bent on your destruction, as militarism than maybe you should get out of the socialist camp and go join a Green party and whine about animal rights, revisionist scum.''

Not a strong army that's a good thing. But throwing workers into concentration camps for no reason as Trotsky and yourself wan't is not only Militarism but Fascism.

[trotskylives]

New to the site. Hello all. Interesting debate, however it lacks concrete analysis. The merits of trotsky or trotskyism are based on opinions of people not on historical fact or a marxist analysis. Its hard to see if anyone here as actually read or studied the works of Trotsky.
As with most "left ideas", Trotskyism has been dragged through the mud. Indeed the left Internationally is littered with groups who claim to come from the Trotskyist tradition and the battle he waged (along with lenin at the end of his life) against the isolation of the Soviet Union and, as a result the bureacratisation of the CP. In this battle, Trotsky defended the revolutionary methods developed by Lenin in opposition to the stale methods of Stalinism.[ BTW this is not a personal attack on Stalin or followers of Stalin. Stalin was the personification of a process that was widely taking place in the CI and especially in the CP in Russia.
Anyway, as I was saying there are hundreds of groups that claim their tradition to Trotsky, the biggest of which are USFI, IST (socialist worker) and the CWI (former militant). apart from the important role of trotsky during the Russian revolution, building the red army etc and the campaign he waged against the betraying of the revolution by the Stalinists, Trotsky's main contribution was the building a new international (after the utter betrayal of the Stalinists by signing a deal with the Nazi's) the Fourth International. Although this failed and basically disintegrated after his death, the idea of a new revolutionary international organisation of the working class, was raised as the priority of all who lay claim to the ideals of October, for all who struggle consciously for the overthrow of capitalism and for a socialist world - as he called it... a world party of socialist revolution.
Trotsky is also responsible for a massive contribution to Marxism in his analysis, (History of the Russian Revolution, The Permanant revolution, In Defense of Marxism, The Transitional Programme for Socialist revolution.... i could go on. no doubt I've left out a few classics) . Before any one was to make up their mind on Trotsky, these brilliant works should be read

[El Barbudo]

VERY INTERESTING!
THANKS A LOT!

[bolshevik1917]

watch this video http://sub.spc.org/speakerscorner/worldhist150k.ram

[kylie]

Trotksy was an opportunistin my opinion.


and here i was thinking it was Stalin who abused his position to make himself look better.

However it is an enemy to social progress.
and Stalinism isnt? the support for a reactionary regime that abused its power and assisted the counter-revolution?

. Stalin led the defence of Tsaritsyn in 1919 and was awarded the highest military medal for it
it was Stalins military leadership that resulted in the defeat in Ukraine.

. While they fought a war Stalin sat on his ass in some miserably pathetic post as commisar of nationalities
yes, and his complete inability to respond to the threat from the central powers in 1917/1918. he was one of the quietest and indecisive members of the central commitee during this period.

. Lenin and Stalin understood this.

this is something i see a lot, attempts to align Stalin with Lenin. in his final years, Lenins view on Trotsky was: "On the other hand, Comrade Trotsky, as was proven by his struggle against the Central Committee in connection with the question of the People's Commissariat of Ways and Communications, is distinguished not only by his exceptional abilities -- personally he is, to be sure, the most able man in the present Central Committee"
while on Stalin in 1924 in 1924 he had to actively work against him to achieve his wishes.

[Mehring]

It is true that Lenin and Trotsky came from different factions of what, before the split, had been called the Russian Social Democratic Party (before social democracy meant liberal reformism). However, an excellent book written recently with very careful archival analysys " The Bolsheviks in Power: The First Year of Bolshevik Rule in Petrograd" by Alexander Rabinowitch shows that the nature of the marxist movement, even in the period immediately after the revolution, was highly fluid. Mensheviks and Bolsheviks as well as other socialist parties such as Socialist Revolutionary Party (which was a peasant based party) worked closely together and there remained revolutionary elements within the Mensheviks of which Leon Trotsky was the leading figure. So despite the factional differences there was a great deal of unity between Lenin and Trotsky even before Trotsky became a bolshevik.

It should also be remebered that Trotsky's crowning work "permanat revolution", which was supported by Lenin and which formed the basis for much of the movements thinking and agitation, was wriiten in 1905. So Lenin and Trotsky were, despite some disagreements of course, were very closely alligned.


The Label Trotskyism came about as Stalin butchered the left opposition and falsified the leninist heritage. The opposition in the workers movement to Stalinist reaction grew into a global movement which in turn lead to the formation of the 4th international. Stalin himself labled revolutionary workers Trotskyite deviationists and used it as a pretext to supress the workers wherever revolutions threatened the interests of the Kremlin. The Trotskyists, of course, wear it as a badge of pride.

[Mehring]

Looking at the surface impressions of politics does not yield an understanding of the significance of the Stalinist Trotskyist split. The point of depature is the fate of the revolution itself.

Even if it is reasonable to defend a few of Stalin's policies for one reason or another, one must see the attitude of stalinists to revolution and to the working class. The two stage theory and the alliance with "progressive" parties in other countries actualy subbordinated the interests of the workers to other classes. Nowehere is this more obvious than in the Socialist revolution in china 1925 to 27.

see: CLASS RELATIONS IN THE CHINESE REVOLUTION by Leon Trotsky

To summarise. Stalin ordered the chinese workers to subordinate themselves to the Kuomintang. By forming a subordinate alliance in such a way ensured that the nationalist petty bourgeoise interests of the Kuomintang would become paramount. The result was the mass murder of Chinese workers and the end of socialism in China.

The "revolution" of 1949 was not socialist at all. It had the interests of the peasant class at the forefront (though it resulted in millions of peasant deaths). This has created a country where workers rights are worse than anywhere except perhaps in North Korea. The cultural revolution was a reaction against modernity which shows its anti-marxist orientation.

The significance of the Trotskyist/Stalinist split is that Stalinism represents a reaction against workers revolution and for the suppression of workers interests. Trotskyism is the contiuation of the Marxist heritage. Historical analysis must always be based on analysing class forces!