acab = shit?

[A-S M.]

I'm having some problems with the whole acab crap amonst a lot of activists, it seems to me that we put way too much effort in fighting the police and blaming things on them while we should be fighting the people who are responsible (politicians etc), yea offcourse we don't have to let them kick our ass at protests, but in my eyes they're also victims of our "leaders"

I'd like too see your guys thought on this :)

[Iron]

I agree way to much effort is put into fight the police and blame on them. i'm all for self defense at a rally. but burning a police car or throwing bricks at officer joe from the downtown P.D. will do nothing but turn public opion away from your cause. the fact of the matter is people don't like to see the police geting beat up it. neither do i even though some may be fasict at a rally or traffic stop they are just doing their job, and to blame all cops for the action of the minioirity sounds like a bad idea to me. in my opion yes the police, soilders, and civil workers are among the victims of politicians that have payed the highest price. they have to follow orders wether they belive in them or not. i doubt a roit cop is very happy about have to break up and rally that he/she might support.

but this is just my 2 cents

[apathy maybe]

ACAB. All Coppers are Bastards.

Cops have chosen a job that means that they will be used against demonstrators, strikers and others by the ruling classes. If they don't like it, they should get out.

There isn't anything wrong with burning a police car, I paid for it (taxes), therefore, I get to smash it up!

Anyway, I can't be fucked giving a longer post, I think you get my point.

[A-S M.]

Originally posted by apathy [email protected] 03, 2007 11:36 am
ACAB. All Coppers are Bastards.

Cops have chosen a job that means that they will be used against demonstrators, strikers and others by the ruling classes. If they don't like it, they should get out.

There isn't anything wrong with burning a police car, I paid for it (taxes), therefore, I get to smash it up!

Anyway, I can't be fucked giving a longer post, I think you get my point.
dude I fully agree, maybe my title wasn't the best but what I try to say is that all the energy we put into fighting cops we could use it to fight the people who are really responsible, not those stupid enough to defend them...

[apathy maybe]

Ah, I understand.

Of course, we have to go through the coppers to get to the bastards though. And if we do go for them, we'll have to contend with the cops at every turn.

That's the thing you see, you don't see too many politicians on the street engaging in street battles.

[Never Give In]

Originally posted by A-S [email protected] 01, 2007 03:54 pm
I'm having some problems with the whole acab crap amonst a lot of activists, it seems to me that we put way too much effort in fighting the police and blaming things on them while we should be fighting the people who are responsible (politicians etc), yea offcourse we don't have to let them kick our ass at protests, but in my eyes they're also victims of our "leaders"

I'd like too see your guys thought on this :)
The police that show no brutality and are the actual people who do what a cop is supposed to do (Protect and Serve) are fellow victims of the Opression given by Politicians and other leaders of this country.

But the Racist cops that exercise way too much power must be stopped, whether physically attacked or put out of their job, we cannot allow this to go on.

I think ACAB and the theories of it are inaccurate, because not all cops are bastards. I never say Fuck The Police. I say Fuck Racists, or Fuck Police Brutality.

Saying that all Police are brutal, racist, ect. is a generalization and stereotype, and generalizations and stereotypes are what we have sworn to destroy.

Unfortunately, the stereotypical Police officer is what we usually see, but there are cops that are not racist bigots like most.

[Comeback Kid]

So im in a small country town. You cant hate the cops here, there your neigbours, the guys down the street, their kids go to school.

You cant hate them for being cops (you can if they are overtly racist/facist ect) they joined up because they wanted to protect and serve. They had the best intentions in mind, and you cant hate some one who just has the best inentions for the community in mind.

Went over to grandparents house today and we were broken into, the police were professional and did their job, lucky not much was stolen.

It is unfortunate that we live in society were violence and crime exists, we are tyig to fight it. As are they, they just are doing it a different way to us, that doesn't make them evil. Just a little misguided, but like all oppressed workers arnt fully class concious and cant be expected to rationalize their actions in a sense of class struggle.

[Never Give In]

Originally posted by Comeback [email protected] 13, 2007 07:49 am
You cant hate them for being cops (you can if they are overtly racist/facist ect)
Exactly. I respect the Police for how they give up almost their lives at times to Protect and Serve.

But Fascist/Racist Police Officers must be stopped without disrupting the flow of the hard-working, just police officers that are oppressed by Capitalism just as we are.

[midnight marauder]

There are very few people who I would call objectively "evil". Most bourgeois politicians, for example, are well meaning people who think what they're doing is just, and good. Police tend to fall in this category.

Unfortunately, many of us don't have the luxury of rewarding the respect that should naturally come from someone being a well meaning member of a police force who is dedicated to protecting and serving the public. This is because the role of a policeman is (among other things) somebody dedicated to protecting private propert, and ensuring the enforcement of the legal system in the status quo. What this means for many people, especially people who are underpriveleged or minorities, is that the police will in effect be proctecting the distribution of inequality, and enforcing laws and policies which disproportionately affect these groups of people. Not by choice necessarily, but by job. This is especially problematic becaues most people don't understand this as the role of the police, because our culture is such that we regard them as heroes and people who DO "protect and serve" the public.

Sometimes they do, sometimes the don't. The key factor in determining tends to come down to who you are. Police respond very differently to you if you're a minority (especially if you're black, latino, or arab), young, male, poor, and in an urban enviornment, than they would if you were someone else. Whereas police protect the upperclasses and upperclass areas, they tend to have the unintended effect of preventing people who are lower class from poorer sections of cities from having a better quality of life. Some of you might be familiar with this quote from Omali Yeshitela, that "the police become necessary in human society only at that junction in human society where there's a fight between those who have, and those who have not." and I think that's a pretty accurate description of why we feel like "fuck the law".

Point being, when the police stop acting like an occupying army in the hood, then we will start respecting them. Until then, we're probably finna act like all cops are bastards.

[Never Give In]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 12:44 am
There are very few people who I would call objectively "evil". Most bourgeois politicians, for example, are well meaning people who think what they're doing is just, and good. Police tend to fall in this category.

Unfortunately, many of us don't have the luxury of rewarding the respect that should naturally come from someone being a well meaning member of a police force who is dedicated to protecting and serving the public. This is because the role of a policeman is (among other things) somebody dedicated to protecting private propert, and ensuring the enforcement of the legal system in the status quo. What this means for many people, especially people who are underpriveleged or minorities, is that the police will in effect be proctecting the distribution of inequality, and enforcing laws and policies which disproportionately affect these groups of people. Not by choice necessarily, but by job. This is especially problematic becaues most people don't understand this as the role of the police, because our culture is such that we regard them as heroes and people who DO "protect and serve" the public.

Sometimes they do, sometimes the don't. The key factor in determining tends to come down to who you are. Police respond very differently to you if you're a minority (especially if you're black, latino, or arab), young, male, poor, and in an urban enviornment, than they would if you were someone else. Whereas police protect the upperclasses and upperclass areas, they tend to have the unintended effect of ensuring that people who are lower class from poorer sections of cities from having a better quality of life. Some of you might be familiar with this quote from Omali Yeshitela, that "the police become necessary in human society only at that junction in human society where there's a fight between those who have, and those who have not." and I think that's a pretty accurate description of why we feel like "fuck the law".

Point being, when the police stop acting like an occupying army in the hood, then we will start respecting them. Until then, we're probably finna act like all cops are bastards.
It's unnecassary to work against the entire police force when not the whole police force is unjust/racist, and the stereotypical "pig".

[midnight marauder]

Thanks for the quick response. I tend to agree, comrade, but I always keep in mind that when it comes down to it, no matter how well meaning or helpful a police officer can be, in many ways their job prevents them from being on the side of the proletariat and the disenfranchized. It's incredibly hard for me to support a police force when my people are being harassed, beaten, and sometimes killed by corrupt law enforcement officers in major urban cities across the United States.

[Faux Real]

I'm sure we all know what the Police "protect and serve", yet as mentioned before many are just in it for the nice pay and benefits. There are the racist fascists who believe they're a godsend and intimidate innocent minorities for the fun of it, as low as their numbers are.

The ones who are class conscious can garner their skills and be useful in a workers revolution is a huge +. We can't go off confronting them when they are not our class enemies, until they are in direct command of the state.

[Never Give In]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 12:53 am
Thanks for the quick response. I tend to agree, comrade, but I always keep in mind that when it comes down to it, no matter how well meaning or helpful a police officer can be, in many ways their job prevents them from being on the side of the proletariat and the disenfranchized. It's incredibly hard for me to support a police force when my people are being harassed, beaten, and sometimes killed by corrupt law enforcement officers in major urban cities across the United States.
It's unfortunate the bad name spread in the proletariat places of the world of the police. I know many police that are in it only to protect lives.

It's also unfortunate that police have so much power and space to corrupt that way. The policing of the world is a tragic situation in my eyes.

On a lighter note, I MADE IT OVER A 100 POSTS! WOOT!!! Kay. Anyway.

[apathy maybe]

Just to bump this thread and to add something more to it, Cops, Dirty Harry, And Junious Poole (http://marxists.org/archive/draper/1972/01/cops.htm) is an article about just this topic. Written in the early 1970s, the author basically states that the police are disposable barriers to the ruling class.

He is no doubt correct, the police do protect the ruling class, and the ruling class aren't hurt even if police are.

But how do we get to the rulers? I'm pretty sure the author would advocate revolution. Indeed sir. But even then we have to contend with the cops.

[A-S M.]

Originally posted by apathy [email protected] 17, 2007 03:09 pm
Just to bump this thread and to add something more to it, Cops, Dirty Harry, And Junious Poole (http://marxists.org/archive/draper/1972/01/cops.htm) is an article about just this topic. Written in the early 1970s, the author basically states that the police are disposable barriers to the ruling class.

He is no doubt correct, the police do protect the ruling class, and the ruling class aren't hurt even if police are.

But how do we get to the rulers? I'm pretty sure the author would advocate revolution. Indeed sir. But even then we have to contend with the cops.
you only would face the cops/army/... if you go after them openly, I think the only way to get the ruling class without hurting innocent people would be covert action

[apathy maybe]

Hardly revolutionary :P

Revolution is *mass* action, which cannot be covert by definition. :P

[A-S M.]

Originally posted by apathy [email protected] 18, 2007 07:43 am
Hardly revolutionary :P

Revolution is *mass* action, which cannot be covert by definition. :P
covert action supported by the masses? :ph34r:

[NorthStarRepublicML]

Cops have chosen a job that means that they will be used against demonstrators, strikers and others by the ruling classes. If they don't like it, they should get out.

the police and most others who have risk oriented jobs, much like persons in the military are often what could be called "economic draftees" .... if you would bother to look at the makeup of the typical military unit or police precinct you will find that most if not all of them come from lower income, working class backgrounds... .

its easy to say something like "if they don't like it, they should get out" but often these jobs are able to provide persons with the income required to raise a family and sustain themselves .... yes, obviously they are being used to enforce state power .... but to some degree everyone that contributes to a capitalist economy is working to enforce state control ....

do you pay taxes? i do and i wish i didn't have to but if i said: "i don't like it, i should get out" and actually did I would most likely face consequences ....

its the same thing with police .... i'm pretty sure that there are police officers that actually enjoy exercising power over others, but a sizable percentage are most likely not thrilled with the prospect of shooting and killing or beating people on a regular basis ....

do you like your job? i sure don't ... i don't know too many people that do ... i assume that police would be included there ....


Went over to grandparents house today and we were broken into, the police were professional and did their job, lucky not much was stolen.

thats a very good point, although they may be the enforcers of state power .... most of the time you can call them for help, and even though they may have never met you, not have a whole lot in common with you, might not even speak the same native language, and they will come out and check out your problem ... it's their job after all ....

[Never Give In]

When there is a murderer in your house, when someone is harming you or your family, when nobody else is left to help, who will you call? The ghostbusters? Hell no.

Though, in theory, after revolution there will be no need for police, as long as Capitalism is still in place they should be recognized as our protectors.

The Racist Police that deliver brutal injustice every day must be stopped, but police, while under Capitalism, are necassary and useful.

[A-S M.]

Originally posted by Never Give [email protected] 19, 2007 07:38 am
When there is a murderer in your house, when someone is harming you or your family, when nobody else is left to help, who will you call? The ghostbusters? Hell no.
what about the A-Team?

[Never Give In]

Originally posted by A-S M.+July 19, 2007 07:41 am--> (A-S M. @ July 19, 2007 07:41 am)
Never Give [email protected] 19, 2007 07:38 am
When there is a murderer in your house, when someone is harming you or your family, when nobody else is left to help, who will you call? The ghostbusters? Hell no.
what about the A-Team? [/b]
True...very true.

[bezdomni]

It is sad that there are so called revolutionaries that think cops actually "protect and serve" anybody other than the bourgeoisie.

[NorthStarRepublicML]

It is sad that there are so called revolutionaries that think cops actually "protect and serve" anybody other than the bourgeoisie.

have you ever been the victim of a crime? has your home ever been robbed or your relatives been victimized by criminals?

if so who shows up to listen to your problem? who makes an effort to help even though they are total strangers?

[Saint Street Revolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 09:10 pm

It is sad that there are so called revolutionaries that think cops actually "protect and serve" anybody other than the bourgeoisie.

have you ever been the victim of a crime? has your home ever been robbed or your relatives been victimized by criminals?

if so who shows up to listen to your problem? who makes an effort to help even though they are total strangers?
I agree.

Something must be done about police brutality, not police.

In theory, once Capitalism is overthrown, the need for police will significantly lessen. But while Capitalism is the political system, police are a necessity, no matter how much we disagree with them. Saying "Fuck the police" is pretty stupid I think. "Fuck Police Brutality" better suits the situation we have with police and acab and all that.

[Lord Testicles]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 10:10 pm
have you ever been the victim of a crime?
Yes.


if so who shows up to listen to your problem? who makes an effort to help even though they are total strangers?

Not the bloody police, I can tell you that.

[Edelweiss]

It is sad that there are so called revolutionaries that think cops actually "protect and serve" anybody other than the bourgeoisie.

Exactly. Sad, truly sad. I can't believe how much bullshit defending the pigs is coming here from supposed communists. It's not a surprise to hear that from bourgeois, moralist, right-wing pseudo-communists like NorthStarRepublicML, but such insane, naive bullshit that the police is just there "to protect and serve" and has "the best intentions" from supposed anarchists like ComebackKid is just making me speechless. It's just showing how effective the bourgeois brainwashing machine goes even in our circles. You all have watched too many Dirty Harry, Die Hard, or whatever movies. And at the top of it, ComebackKid calls the police "oppressed workers" who are just trying "to fight crime and violence like us". I hardly ever did hear such a bullshit over the years here at revleft. Newsflash ComebackKid: It's the cops who are enforcing the oppresion against the workers. Really, comeback kid, you did won the price for the shittiest and most embarrassing post of the year.

The police are in no way "oppressed workers". They are class traitors, they are here to enforce the power of the state that we are fighting, and they are here to "protect and serve" nothing but the interests of the ruling class. The police is a representative of the bourgeois, capitalist state, which wouldn't hesitate a second to use their "monopoly of violence" against YOU in any occasion, if their leader told them so, or if they just feel like having fun kicking another's commie ass. Again, the cops are class traitors, and should be treated as such. They joined the police out of free will, nobody forced them so. ACAB for sure, period.

Comeback Kid, I don't care if your relatives, friends, or neighbours are cops, they are bastards as well, all of them deserve a good kick in the ass.

I have experienced too much shit with cops that I is making me change my opinion on them. ComebackKid, maybe where you are coming from, in your little small-town bourgeois middle-class idyll, you never experienced ever any police brutality or police arbitrariness. But that doesn't matter, because you don't realize that this is just part of their "protect and serve" job, just like helping your poor, fucking grandparents out when somebody has stolen their property.

The other point that naive pesudo-anarchist fools like ComebackKid, (A)//(E) and A-S-M don't understand that it's not our choice to fight the police. They are the one who attack our rallies, they are the ones who protect the fascists, they are the ones who repress us, not the other way round. We are just reacting to their oppression. A cop ends to be an enemy when he changes the side of the barricades, not a second earlier.

ComebackKid, go to hell, and take your cop friends with you!

[NorthStarRepublicML]

It's not a surprise to hear that from bourgeois, moralist, right-wing pseudo-communists like NorthStarRepublicML,

HA! this coming from the right-wing pseudo-communist that supports the brutal apartheid state of Israel ... get off your high horse ....

Hmmm ... understanding the plight of working class economic draftees (police) or openly supporting genocidal ultra-right colonists (Israel) ... you are a hypocrite of the highest order.

[Edelweiss]

HA! this coming from the right-wing pseudo-communist that supports the brutal apartheid state of Israel ...

Well, that's not really reply to my points raised, you are only trying to distract from your own, embarrassing bullshit stance. Not a surprise though....

[NorthStarRepublicML]

Well, that's not really reply to my points raised

oh excuse me ... you had a point? .. it just sounded like a bunch of ACAB rhetoric and personal attacks ...

[Edelweiss]

Originally posted by NorthStarRepubl[email protected] 13, 2007 11:26 pm

Well, that's not really reply to my points raised

oh excuse me ... you had a point? .. it just sounded like a bunch of ACAB rhetoric and personal attacks ...
Whatever. Have fun fighting for the establishment of a "socialist republic" within the USA side by side with your beloved cops. :lol:

[peaccenicked]

Gone are the romantic days of old. http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-90158...n-Police-Strike (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9015840/Boston-Police-Strike)

There was a time when I thought the police could be unionized and brought on to the side of the working class, but now things are so top down heavy that if they are not filth,
they soon will be. If the notion of a good cop is alive at all.The come in their hundreds to crush our demos and strikes.
ACAB sounds right to me, and it sounds like SCAB to me we should treat them with mistrust and contempt, (until they protect our picket lines from scab presence.... :wacko: .)


As sung by Pete Seeger,

TALKING UNION

If you want higher wages, let me tell you what to do;
You got to talk to the workers in the shop with you;
You got to build you a union, got to make it strong,
But if you all stick together, now, ‘twont he long.
You'll get shorter hours,
Better working conditions.
Vacations with pay,
Take your kids to the seashore.

It ain’t quite this simple, so I better explain
Just why you got to ride on the union train;
‘Cause if you wait for the boss to raise your pay,
We’ll all be waiting till Judgment Day;
We’ll all he buried - gone to Heaven -
Saint Peter’ll be the straw boss then.

Now, you know you’re underpaid, hut the boss says you ain’t;
He speeds up the work till you’re ‘bout to faint,
You may he down and out, but you ain’t beaten,
Pass out a leaflet and call a meetin’
Talk it over - speak your mind -
Decide to do something about it.

‘Course, the boss may persuade some poor damn fool
To go to your meeting and act like a stool;
But you can always tell a stool, though - that’s a fact;
He’s got a yellow streak running down his back;
He doesn’t have to stool - he'll always make a good living
On what he takes out of blind men’s cups.

You got a union now; you’re sitting pretty;
Put some of the boys on the steering committee.
The boss won’t listen when one man squawks.
But he’s got to listen when the union talks.
He better -
He’ll be mighty lonely one of these days.

Suppose they’re working you so hard it’s just outrageous,
They’re paying you all starvation wages;
You go to the boss, and the boss would yell,
"Before I'd raise your pay I’d see you all in Hell."
Well, he’s puffing a big see-gar and feeling mighty slick,
He thinks he’s got your union licked.
He looks out the window, and what does he see
But a thousand pickets, and they all agree
He’s a bastard - unfair - slave driver -
Bet he beats his own wife.

Now, boy, you’ve come to the hardest time;
The boss will try to bust your picket line.
He’ll call out the police, the National Guard;
They’ll tell you it’s a crime to have a union card.
They’ll raid your meeting, hit you on the head.
Call every one of you a goddamn Red -
Unpatriotic - Moscow agents -
Bomb throwers, even the kids.

But out in Detroit here’s what they found,
And out in Frisco here’s what they found,
And out in Pittsburgh here’s what they found,
And down in Bethlehem here’s what they found,
That if you don’t let Red-baiting break you up,
If you don’t let stool pigeons break you up,
If you don’t let vigilantes break you up,
And if you don’t let race hatred break you up -
You’ll win. What I mean,
Take it easy - but take it!


Words by Millard Lampell, Lee Hays and Pete Seeger (1941)
Music: traditional ("TaIking Blues”)

[NorthStarRepublicML]

Whatever.

wow that was a really productive talk.... and good luck to you sir somehow justifying yourself as a leftist while maintaining support for the apartheid state of Israel, you make me sick.

bye now.


SCAB

agreed

[Edelweiss]

understanding the plight of working class economic draftees (police)

I won't go into an offtopic discussion with you about why I do acknowledge Israel's right to exist, but condemn their politics of apartheid now. I have made my position very clear on this, you are just an ignorant prick, who is knowingly misunderstanding my position.

But to call the police "working class economic draftees" and justify their crimes somehow with that is utterly absurd. Poor cops, they are just victims of the ruling class...:rolleyes: What's next, are you also defending imperial soldiers "working class economic draftees"? What about your so much hated Israeli soldiers and police? Are they being "working class draftees" as well?!

Stop calling for some form of working class solidarity with the pigs. Either you are on the side of the ruling class or even a cop yourself, or you oppose the class enemy represented by the police. There is no in between - choose your side.

[NorthStarRepublicML]

What's next, are you also defending imperial soldiers "working class economic draftees"?

look at the majority of US soldiers, they come from low economic backgrounds as well as from areas with limited options for economic stability ... yes soldiers are "economic draftees", the type of people that wal-mart turns down for a job .... the army is always hiring. the vast majority of soldiers enlist because they have been fooled, they sign up to protect people not capitalist interests, they sign up to get a college education not to shoot Iraqi children.



What about your so much hated Israeli soldiers and police? Are they being "working class draftees" as well?!

they are colonists so fuck'em ... and from what i understand are actual draftees



Stop calling for some form of working class solidarity with the pigs.

HA! make me


There is no in between - choose your side.


everything isn't black and white pal, you need to accept that others do not see 100% of police as stormtroopers for global capitalism, sure there are Some police who are assholes, but the majority of them are just trying to make a living and as such are in the same position as the rest of us.

oh and who the fuck are you to offer such a choice?

[Edelweiss]

look at the majority of US soldiers, they come from low economic backgrounds as well as from areas with limited options for economic stability ... yes soldiers are "economic draftees", the type of people that wal-mart turns down for a job .... the army is always hiring. the vast majority of soldiers enlist because they have been fooled, they sign up to protect people not capitalist interests, they sign up to get a college education not to shoot Iraqi children.

So what's your conclusion out of this? "Supporting the troops but being against the war" - we might see a Stalinist lowering down into liberal rhetoric here...:lol:


everything isn't black and white pal, you need to accept that others do not see 100% of police as stormtroopers for global capitalism, sure there are Some police who are assholes, but the majority of them are just trying to make a living and as such are in the same position as the rest of us.

I'm not into black and white thinking either, (unlike you, which your stance in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and your angry accusations because of my divert position are proofing), but in the case of cops there simply is no in between. A cop is a cop is cop. There is no "good cop" as much as they can't be "good capitalism".

[NorthStarRepublicML]

So what's your conclusion out of this?

its not too complicated, you asked a question i answered it. you might not like the answer and even attempt to slander me by throwing around slogans or catch phrases but thats just the way it is.


There is no "good cop"

ha! good luck with keeping a society, any society, including socialism or communism, together without police forces. there will always be a need for peace officers.


as much as they can't be "good capitalism".

read up on the Lenin's NEP

[peaccenicked]

I think the police and the army are a bit different, the army actively recruits pissed off teenagers who dont really think out what war means, they think the risk is worth it if they get a trade., but to join the police is prospectless, and takes a ever more slavish mentality which sides the police against the working class.

The revolutionary process, I think will not be about solidarity with cops but as their families increasingly come over to the side of revolution, the point will be to out them from the police force or to make them spies for us, so we know what they know about us- could be useful.

[NorthStarRepublicML]

the army actively recruits pissed off teenagers who dont really think out what war means, they think the risk is worth it if they get a trade., but to join the police is prospectless, and takes a ever more slavish mentality which sides the police against the working class.

it is also important to consider that many former soldiers with only the basic skill set enter into the profession of law enforcement upon their discharge.

[bolshevik butcher]

The point here isn't whether individual police officers are bastards or not, as some people seem to be arguing, good sense of serving the community, genuinely fighting crime etc. That is not what's up for debate. I'm sure that on occasions police officers to arrest violent offenders, stop rapes etc. However the fundemental question is what is the role of the police force in relation to class society. Ultimatley the police forces role is to protect class privilledges and private property. Engels said that the state could be diminished to armed bodies of men in defence of private property. In practise this is often the role of the police and the reason that the bourgoise has created the police force as an institution. Let's look at for instance the miners strike in Britain where the police were deployed like military units in order to break the strike ruthlessly and violenently repressed the organised working class, this is their true role in society exposed.

[Severian]

What Malte said, in his first post. And BTW, cops are a class layer where Israelis are a national group. So really, this illustrates that NorthStar has nothing like a class perspective, but rather a purely nationalism-based one.

Also: Do all cops commit acts of racist and other brutality? Possibly no. Typically, some cops are the subject of a lot more citizen complaints than others.

But all cops defend the worst ones who commit the most and worst acts of brutality. All cops cover for the crimes of the worst racists and thugs in blue. Even though supposedly their job is to enforce the law.....

They remain silent, they lie to cover for other cops, they mobilize to attend trials and otherwise support cops who get in trouble for brutality or frame-ups.

Any cop who won't go along with this tends to end up run out of the force like this guyhere (http://www.policeabuse.org/director.html). Or hey, remember Serpico? Though that was corruption rather than brutality. Anyway, the occasional honest cop is the real exception. And they tend not to stay cops long.

It's sometimes claimed that there are just "a few bad apple" cops. If so, they've spoiled the whole barrel. As happens with real apples, BTW.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Either you are on the side of the ruling class or even a cop yourself

Close.. he's a security guard (whose job is specifically to protect capitalist private property).

[hajduk]

we dont need no more troubles with police..and we can avoid them...with net

[Axel1917]

The police play a reactionary role in society, regardless of how they behave individually. They are the first line of defense of the capitalist class and are enemies of the proletariat.


I think the police and the army are a bit different, the army actively recruits pissed off teenagers who dont really think out what war means, they think the risk is worth it if they get a trade., but to join the police is prospectless, and takes a ever more slavish mentality which sides the police against the working class.

I agree in this aspect; the Bolsheviks managed to successfully get cells into the army and win a good deal of them over. Many soldiers are taken from working poor familes, these teens and young adults not seeing any other way to "get anywhere."

[Saint Street Revolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 04:53 pm
What Malte said, in his first post. And BTW, cops are a class layer where Israelis are a national group. So really, this illustrates that NorthStar has nothing like a class perspective, but rather a purely nationalism-based one.

Also: Do all cops commit acts of racist and other brutality? Possibly no. Typically, some cops are the subject of a lot more citizen complaints than others.

But all cops defend the worst ones who commit the most and worst acts of brutality. All cops cover for the crimes of the worst racists and thugs in blue. Even though supposedly their job is to enforce the law.....

They remain silent, they lie to cover for other cops, they mobilize to attend trials and otherwise support cops who get in trouble for brutality or frame-ups.

Any cop who won't go along with this tends to end up run out of the force like this guyhere (http://www.policeabuse.org/director.html). Or hey, remember Serpico? Though that was corruption rather than brutality. Anyway, the occasional honest cop is the real exception. And they tend not to stay cops long.

It's sometimes claimed that there are just "a few bad apple" cops. If so, they've spoiled the whole barrel. As happens with real apples, BTW.
Well, after much thought, I agree with you and Malte on this issue.

I thought that there should be something done about police brutality not police. You're right though.

[bezdomni]

You pig-lovers have no place on the revolutionary left! Really, if you aren't on the completely opposite side of the class struggle from actual proletarians and revolutionaries...then you are clearly grossly detatched from it.

I guess that explains NorthTsar's deranged one-man call for a socialist republic in a particularly reactionary place in the U.S. :lol:

A revolutionary advocates and engages in illegal acts of suberversion against the bourgeois state. The cop enforces the law of the bourgeois state.

There is an obvious conflict of interest there. Who's side are you on?

[bezdomni]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 09:10 pm

It is sad that there are so called revolutionaries that think cops actually "protect and serve" anybody other than the bourgeoisie.

have you ever been the victim of a crime? has your home ever been robbed or your relatives been victimized by criminals?

if so who shows up to listen to your problem? who makes an effort to help even though they are total strangers?
I've been a victim of pigs more than I've been a victim of "criminals" (which are the creation of capitalism and galvinized by the capitaist prison system).

A pickpocket has never threatened to arrest me at a protest. Robbers don't harass me when I'm agitating...and it's not theives you have to be looking out for when you are sabotaging industries, organizing illegal strikes, decorating your city with communist line or taking over the means of production.

If the police actually help you, then that really shows more about your class nature than it does to change my mind about the police.

Go to a black proletarian neighborhood in the U.S. and ask these questions, or talk to some undocumented workers who are constantly trying to evade the pigs who helps them when they need something.

The real theives, rapists and murderers are the pigs, not the people they throw behind bars.

Also, you are being incredibly national chauvinistic. There are pigs in countries other than the U.S. that are in fact, much worse than american pigs and are openly engaged in war against communists.

What do you think Lenin meant when he talks about "combatting the political police"? Having them over for coffee and asking them to stop attacking your people?

[Axel1917]

read up on the Lenin's NEP

That was intended as a temporary measure, to stave off the pressure of alien class forces until the revolution came to other countries and dragged Russia out of isolation.

[bezdomni]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 12:07 am

read up on the Lenin's NEP

That was intended as a temporary measure, to stave off the pressure of alien class forces until the revolution came to other countries and dragged Russia out of isolation.
Yeah. It wasn't "good capitalism" it was one step backward for two steps forward.

[A-S M.]

why the hell is everyone so black and white about this? you're either with us or against us! that's kinda anti-unity like lol

[Saint Street Revolution]

Originally posted by A-S [email protected] 16, 2007 10:09 pm
why the hell is everyone so black and white about this? you're either with us or against us! that's kinda anti-unity like lol
Apparently not on this subject. Turns out Leftists have various views on cops.

[Tower of Bebel]

The police are in no way "oppressed workers". They are class traitors, they are here to enforce the power of the state that we are fighting, and they are here to "protect and serve" nothing but the interests of the ruling class. The police is a representative of the bourgeois, capitalist state, which wouldn't hesitate a second to use their "monopoly of violence" against YOU in any occasion, if their leader told them so, or if they just feel like having fun kicking another's commie ass. Again, the cops are class traitors, and should be treated as such. They joined the police out of free will, nobody forced them so. ACAB for sure, period.

The concept of police you're talking about is indeed reactionary. Yet, that does not mean all cops, as human beings, are fully aware of the concequences they face when they do their jobs. If all workers knew about their class interests, then their would be socialism today already!

My best friend wants to go to the army. I gave him all the info he needs to fully understand what a soldier really is: a reactionary counterforce, ready to serve the bourgeoisie. He does not believe what I say, and he does not care about society, he does not (want to) understand what I say. He always dreamed of going to the army. Should we stop visiting eachother? No. You do not choose your friend in politics. That's why I understand what mr. Kid is saying.

It is clear that the police, guards, soldiers, whatever... - as a concept - are reactionary forces in order to serve the bourgeoisie. This does not mean that all cops are reactionary bastards themselves.
In Nigeria our comrades have to endure severe pressure form police forces. But when these comrades go on the streets and demand better wages for workers, they also demand better wages for police men, as many policemen in Nigeria - just like in Russia - mostly live from black mail and theft. They just do not earn enough to make a living. Many workers in this world take any job as long as they earn some money, they don't care about which class they belong to as long as they get some money. Don't blame the policemen, blame the concept they have to follow in order to earn their living.

Like I said before. If everyone was class conscious, then maybe we would already have socialism today.

[Coggeh]

My perception on the police force are that they indeed actively defend the bourgeois state .

But according to their economic position in society they are indeed working class who have to sell their labor to make a living .

I see the police force as somewhat reactionary but not entirely , when you see police hitting workers on protests , they are merely doing their job and being told from a higher power to do so .. although they shouldn't be fucking doing that anyway no matter who tells them ... but its for a wage in the end .As in the same context as a teacher is being told to teach right wing rhetoric in history class etc . doing what their told for their wage .

True though that their are some power abusers in the police force or racist cops .But i don't think pigs ..cops or what ever are entirely reactionary and can be won over to the revolution in the end .

[Rawthentic]

But according to their economic position in society they are indeed working class who have to sell their labor to make a living .
No they are not, they dont produce any surplus value. Their relationship the means of production is that of protecting them in the benefit of the bosses.

Unlike army soldiers, cops are not known to mutiny and join revolutions.

[Tower of Bebel]

Originally posted by Voz de la Gente [email protected] 17, 2007 06:11 am
Unlike army soldiers, cops are not known to mutiny and join revolutions.
That's because soldiers had more chances to be the sons of farmers or workers. Especially the police cavalry only contained sons of (petty) bourgeois.

[Forward Union]

Allow me to throw in my two cents.

The Police are the front-line defence of property and privelage. That is their institutional imperative, and it directly stands in opposition to our political objectives. Therefore they are enemies. Armed and uniformed enemies at any rate.

They may be the nicest people in the world as individuals, Indeed I have family who are ex-fuzz. But their institutional role is monstrous. And come the time we shouldn't hesitate to deploy lethal force against them. Because they can and well do everything to destroy us come the time.

I would however say that the phrase "ACAB" is, to say the least, crass. It does nothing for our PR. Saying things along the lines of "all cops are bastards" or "fuck the police" is politically immature, though I agree with the sentiment, I learnt through experience that the police were scum, but beforehand (even while I was political) I felt alienated by others who openly hated the police, the rhetoric sounds extreme and a bit full hardy.


But according to their economic position in society they are indeed working class who have to sell their labor to make a living .


So were a majority of Hitlers SA. Obviously they are working class, but they are stooges of the capitalist state. Obviously they are welcome to quit and join us come the time. But I doubt that will occur, desertion is far more likely in the military.


The concept of police you're talking about is indeed reactionary. Yet, that does not mean all cops, as human beings, are fully aware of the concequences they face when they do their jobs.

Of course they are. They have to understand the law, most of which is focused on defence of property rights and bussiness assets.

But whether they do or not is politically irrelivant to us. The point is they stand in direct opposition to our goals, and will attack us. So the only thing we need to consider, is come the time we attempt to take back the means of production, do we defend ourselves and enter combat with the police, or surrender?

[Tower of Bebel]

Of course they are. They have to understand the law, most of which is focused on defence of property rights and bussiness assets

Well, look at the USA where half of the population votes for either liberals or liberals. Liberals are the scum of the earth and the people undergo the consequences (Catrina, neoliberal attacks, ...). Still half of the population votes liberals.

I think it is the same with people who sign up for the police: people today are incapable of knowing the brought social consequences of their actions.

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2007 02:28 pm

Of course they are. They have to understand the law, most of which is focused on defence of property rights and bussiness assets

Well, look at the USA where half of the population votes for either liberals or liberals. Liberals are the scum of the earth and the people undergo the consequences (Catrina, neoliberal attacks, ...). Still half of the population votes liberals.

I think it is the same with people who sign up for the police: people today are incapable of knowing the brought social consequences of their actions.
Perhaps, but whether or not the police fully understand the political implications of their employment is aside the point. Which is that institutionaly they are our immediate enemies, I mean that in entirely practical terms of course.

[bezdomni]

Aw, NorthTsar hasn't replied. :(

He must be out fighting crime with his pig buddies.

[WashingtonBullets]

The British police were declared 'Institutionally Racist' in 1999 after the Stephen Lawrance murder back in '93. They have had to change their recruitment policy and methods of investigating crimes involving a racial motive.

If the government have declared the UK police racist over 8 years ago then surely the problem is being adressed in the best manor it can be...

or does anybody have an opinion on what should be reformed in the police?

[Black Flag Rising]

The purpose of Law Enforcement is clear; to Protect and Serve...the rich. The Bourgeoise State we have sworn to destroy uses law enforcement, swat teams, and all the other legions of class traitors, as it's cronies to hold the Revolutionary and the different down.

No matter the Policing that does their "duty" (Fight crime, keep the peace, blah blah blah), the main component of Law Enforcement is to serve as a shield for the rich and the priveleged.

[Lord Testicles]

Originally posted by Red-star-Hague+September 01, 2007 07:10 pm--> (Red-star-Hague @ September 01, 2007 07:10 pm) or does anybody have an opinion on what should be reformed in the police? [/b]
I don't understand what your trying to say... Are you trying to say that the police can be reformed, into a "better, less oppressive institution" ?


The Anarchist Tension
And when we talk of solving a problem that involves the lives of all of us, our daily existence, we are talking of questions of such complexity' that they cannot be restricted to a simple restatement of the problem itself Take, for example, "the problem of the police". The existence of the police constitutes a problem for many of us. There can be no doubt that the policeman is an instrument of repression used by the State to prevent us from doing certain things. How do you solve such a problem? Can the problem of the police be solved? The very question reveals itself to be absurd, there is no such thing as the solving of the problem of the police. Yet from a democratic point of view it would be possible to solve some aspects of it by democratising certain structures, changing policemen's attitudes and so on. Now, to think that this might be a solution to the problem of control and repression would be as stupid as it is illogical. In actual fact, it is nothing other than a way of regulating repression in keeping with the interests of power, of the State.

[WashingtonBullets]

I don't understand what your trying to say... Are you trying to say that the police can be reformed, into a "better, less oppressive institution" ?

I know this is a often debated topic amongst leftists... anarchists / non-anarchists etc..

I was more asking for other peoples opinions rather than that of my own.... and I understand that yours is abolishment of police outright like many people on this forum. If we are talking post-revolution, and post counter-revolution resistance...in a stable communist society shall we say...the police will not be a tool of the state used to repress but will be a tool of the proletariat to protect. A volunteer force for local intergration into the community. My perception of human nature is a rather pesimistic one...although i strongly believe the establishment of a communist society will reduce crime rates (because crime is undoubtedly linked to socio-economic misbalance)...I feel crime will always plague the streets. Utopia is impossible. The system is there to be cheated and criminals tend to be oppurtunistic. petty mugging/drunk and disorderly/theft to feed an addiction etc.. cannot be solved.

I know alot will disagree massivley with me but the police (if under a dictatorship of the proletariat during transition) will serve the everyday needs of citizens. People feel safe on the streets if there is a 'bobby on the beat' (unless ur carrying drugs :huh: ). If somebody is a victim of crime they want the criminal to be dealt with. Obviously not custodial, (simply because it helps nobody) but in the eys of your average citizen the 'knee jerk' reaction is get tough...and that is undisputable.
Theory behind sentancing and teh legal system is another debate entirely but in terms of a police force... it is essential for society of any ideology.

Feel free to disagree...I prefer to develop my ideology and views that way :rolleyes: