Fascist history teacher [Archive]

Tommy-K

1st July 2007, 10:53

This woman, is a *****.

She told a ginger girl that the only reason she was ginger, is that her brain was rusting and leaking into her hair.

She also described Stalin as 'cuddly'.

But the one thing, that shocked me more than anything, was this:

Whilst teaching a class about Nazi Germany, she decided that, although it goes against the National Curicculum, she would instill her own views onto the poor, unsuspecting class, and proclaimed:

"The Jews brought the Holocaust upon themselves."

Now this has only just come to my attention, I was told by someone and have had it backed up by others. This ***** is retiring at the end of this school year (i.e. in about 2 weeks). The question is this...should I just let her retire and never hear of her again, or shall I report her now so she goes out in shame.

Led Zeppelin

1st July 2007, 10:56

Report her, definitely.

praxis1966

1st July 2007, 11:53

Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2007 03:56 am
Report her, definitely.
Damn right. You might even be able to get her pension pulled.

Tommy-K

1st July 2007, 12:02

Does what she said count as Holocaust denial? Because I'm pretty sure that's a crime.

Jazzratt

1st July 2007, 13:51

Oh but if you reported her you'd be taking awy her free speech and we all know how important it is for nazis to have that <_<

Demogorgon

1st July 2007, 13:58

Originally posted by Tommy-[email protected] 01, 2007 11:02 am
Does what she said count as Holocaust denial? Because I'm pretty sure that's a crime.
Not in the UK. Anyway it amazes me a teacher would sy that in this day and age. What was the context she said it in? As for calling Stalin cuddly that sounds like just being stupid and the comment to that girl was the kind of nasty joke that all comes down to how the girl takes it. Some people like that kind of banter with their teachers. But the holocaust comment is shocking. Still at least she is retiring.

Sir Aunty Christ

1st July 2007, 15:11

I would say report her but I suspect that the school authorities will drag their heels ensuring that she retires without a stain on her name. <_<

Amusing Scrotum

1st July 2007, 16:30

Originally posted by praxis1966+July 01, 2007 10:53 am--> (praxis1966 @ July 01, 2007 10:53 am)
[email protected] 01, 2007 03:56 am
Report her, definitely.
Damn right. You might even be able to get her pension pulled. [/b]

Do you honestly think having her pension "pulled" because of her political allegiances is a step in the right direction?

Dr Mindbender

1st July 2007, 18:12

Originally posted by Tommy-[email protected] 01, 2007 09:53 am
This woman, is a *****.

She told a ginger girl that the only reason she was ginger, is that her brain was rusting and leaking into her hair.

She also described Stalin as 'cuddly'.

But the one thing, that shocked me more than anything, was this:

Whilst teaching a class about Nazi Germany, she decided that, although it goes against the National Curicculum, she would instill her own views onto the poor, unsuspecting class, and proclaimed:

"The Jews brought the Holocaust upon themselves."

Now this has only just come to my attention, I was told by someone and have had it backed up by others. This ***** is retiring at the end of this school year (i.e. in about 2 weeks). The question is this...should I just let her retire and never hear of her again, or shall I report her now so she goes out in shame.
Rather than attempting to get her silenced, You should have challenged her views there and then ( I would have) It would have embarressed the fuck out of her and possibly prevented her racist bullshit perpetrating the minds of your classmates.
Or next time bring a dictaphone into your class and record her to let the senior teachers listen. If they fail to take an interest, try the local newspapers.
Job's a good one. ;)

Coprolal1an

1st July 2007, 18:27

Yes, what she said is profoundly stupid, and yes it would be better if she didn't say those things. However, before you report her, look into if she has done this sort of thing before--I've had teachers than have taught for ~20-30 years, and towards the end they do tend to get a little *****y.. If this is an isolated incident and it was towards the end of the last year that she would teach, I would just let her be. Now, if this was happening for a long time then I would report her.

Dr Mindbender

1st July 2007, 18:35

Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2007 05:27 pm
Yes, what she said is profoundly stupid, and yes it would be better if she didn't say those things. However, before you report her, look into if she has done this sort of thing before--I've had teachers than have taught for ~20-30 years, and towards the end they do tend to get a little *****y.. If this is an isolated incident and it was towards the end of the last year that she would teach, I would just let her be. Now, if this was happening for a long time then I would report her.
I would tend to disagree, because if nothing is done then it sets a precedence that its okay for other teachers to say the same things. Holocaust denial, especially whenever its in front of so many impressionable minds shouldnt be tolerated. Fair enough, she might be retiring in a fortnight but you dont know how many potential Adolf Hitlers or Nick Griffins might have been in that classroom.

which doctor

1st July 2007, 18:39

You'll have to deal with these types of people all through out your life.

Dr Mindbender

1st July 2007, 18:43

Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2007 05:39 pm
You'll have to deal with these types of people all through out your life.
Thats probably what people who grudgingly suffered the company of Hitler said pre-third reich.

Coprolal1an

1st July 2007, 20:01

Originally posted by Ulster Socialist+July 01, 2007 05:35 pm--> (Ulster Socialist @ July 01, 2007 05:35 pm)
[email protected] 01, 2007 05:27 pm
Yes, what she said is profoundly stupid, and yes it would be better if she didn't say those things. However, before you report her, look into if she has done this sort of thing before--I've had teachers than have taught for ~20-30 years, and towards the end they do tend to get a little *****y.. If this is an isolated incident and it was towards the end of the last year that she would teach, I would just let her be. Now, if this was happening for a long time then I would report her.
I would tend to disagree, because if nothing is done then it sets a precedence that its okay for other teachers to say the same things. Holocaust denial, especially whenever its in front of so many impressionable minds shouldnt be tolerated. Fair enough, she might be retiring in a fortnight but you dont know how many potential Adolf Hitlers or Nick Griffins might have been in that classroom. [/b]
What I'm trying to say is that you are not going to be able to take back what she said by reporting her for hate speech in the last few days of her teaching career. The only time in that scenario where you could make that much of a difference would be if someone stood up to her while she was saying these things.

I suppose you could argue that reporting her would be good because teachers shouldn't get away with 'poisoning' the minds of children, but like what Sir Aunty Christ said, the school officials will probably drag their heals and nothing would happen anyway. Furthermore, if any other teachers were close friends of that teacher or shared her beliefs at least partially, they might stand up for her and try to instill their beliefs into more children or put that teacher on a pedestal.

which doctor

1st July 2007, 20:40

It's just that there's really nothing to remotely suggest that this woman is a fascist. She mad a joke in bad taste about someone with red hair, a sarcastic personality description of Stalin, and an anti-semitic comment.

Besides that, I really don't see anything to suggest she is anything beyond an idiot.

To be a history teacher in a capitalist state is by definition, to be full of shit.

ps. Ulster Socialist just validated Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_law)

link fixed

Coprolal1an

1st July 2007, 23:37

Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2007 07:40 pm
ps. Ulster Socialist just validated Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law)
Mike Godwin was such a nazi

Dr Mindbender

2nd July 2007, 00:00

Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2007 07:40 pm
It's just that there's really nothing to remotely suggest that this woman is a fascist. She mad a joke in bad taste about someone with red hair, a sarcastic personality description of Stalin, and an anti-semitic comment.

Besides that, I really don't see anything to suggest she is anything beyond an idiot.

To be a history teacher in a capitalist state is by definition, to be full of shit.

ps. Ulster Socialist just validated Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law)
''Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name. Please search for Godwin& in Wikipedia to check for alternative titles or spellings.'' :blink:

Coprolal1an

2nd July 2007, 00:19

Originally posted by Ulster [email protected] 01, 2007 11:00 pm
[QUOTE=FoB,July 01, 2007 07:40 pm]
''Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name. Please search for Godwin& in Wikipedia to check for alternative titles or spellings.'' :blink:
The parser script built into the forum for some reason replaced the apostrophe with its html equivalent.

Eleftherios

2nd July 2007, 04:32

Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2007 07:40 pm
To be a history teacher in a capitalist state is by definition, to be full of shit.

Hahaha so true :lol:

This woman, is a *****.

Yeah, probably, but she does not seem to be much more. Many teachers care less about their jobs towards the end of their careers and as a result start doing stuff that they might not be supposed to do. Trust me, I've had my share of old teachers who are just waiting to retire and do little to really teach the class.

Led Zeppelin

2nd July 2007, 08:03

Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2007 07:40 pm
To be a history teacher in a capitalist state is by definition, to be full of shit.
Erm, Michael Parent, Howard Zinn?

Devrim

2nd July 2007, 10:13

Let's put this in perspective. There is a worker who makes a racist comment, and the immediate reaction of the leftists is to run to the management to try to get her punished.

Doen't anybody see anything deeply wrong here?

Devrim

Led Zeppelin

2nd July 2007, 11:04

Right, because workers who are Naziss are exempt from any action.

Get real, there are a lot of workers who are reactionary and Nazis, that doesn't make them any better because they're workers.

Devrim

2nd July 2007, 11:07

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 10:04 am
Right, because workers who are Naziss are exempt from any action.

Get real, there are a lot of workers who are reactionary and Nazis, that doesn't make them any better because they're workers.
Yes, lots of workers are Nazis. I don't think this woman is though.
Is the way you deal with Nazis by complaining to the management?
Devrim

Devrim

2nd July 2007, 12:28

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 11:11 am
devrimankara has a point, but I think using a mechanism of the current system to get rid of a fascist is perfectly justified, although it's not a revolutionary way.
Bariş,
I think that the first thing to be considered is that this woman is in all likelyhood not a fascist at all. She made a unprofessional comment about a girl's intelligence, a strange remark about Stalin, and an anti-semitic remark.
In many workplaces it is not uncommon to hear racist remarks. It doesn't mean that the people making them are fascists.
I would say that you argue with these people, not run to the management, and try to get their pension taken away.
Devrim
P.S. What mechanism would you use to get rid of the MHP at Gazi?

Led Zeppelin

2nd July 2007, 13:53

Originally posted by devrimankara+July 02, 2007 10:07 am--> (devrimankara @ July 02, 2007 10:07 am)
[email protected] 02, 2007 10:04 am
Right, because workers who are Naziss are exempt from any action.

Get real, there are a lot of workers who are reactionary and Nazis, that doesn't make them any better because they're workers.
Yes, lots of workers are Nazis. I don't think this woman is though.
Is the way you deal with Nazis by complaining to the management?
Devrim [/b]
If I have the possibility to do so then hell yeah I will.

Eleftherios

2nd July 2007, 14:36

Originally posted by Leninism+July 02, 2007 07:03 am--> (Leninism @ July 02, 2007 07:03 am)
[email protected] 01, 2007 07:40 pm
To be a history teacher in a capitalist state is by definition, to be full of shit.
Erm, Michael Parent, Howard Zinn? [/b]
Yeah, I guess the generalization does not apply to all. But in High School and Middle School the teachers usually take a harder stance against Communism and are more inclined to instill a sense of nationalism, capitalist values, anti-Communism into the kids' minds, while both Parenti and Zinn are professors at the University.

Black Cross

2nd July 2007, 17:07

Originally posted by devrimankara+July 02, 2007 10:07 am--> (devrimankara @ July 02, 2007 10:07 am)
[email protected] 02, 2007 10:04 am
Right, because workers who are Naziss are exempt from any action.

Get real, there are a lot of workers who are reactionary and Nazis, that doesn't make them any better because they're workers.
Yes, lots of workers are Nazis. I don't think this woman is though.
Is the way you deal with Nazis by complaining to the management?
Devrim[/b]
So what would you do instead? Why are you against going through the proper channels to have this lady (if you can call her that) punished? She definitely shouldn't get off clean for this.

Axel1917

2nd July 2007, 18:38

Definitely try to report it. We shouldn't be letting Fascist scum get off the hook.

Amusing Scrotum

2nd July 2007, 19:03

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 09:13 am
Doen't anybody see anything deeply wrong here?

Looking at this thread, I think you and I are in the minority here. Which brings me to the following conclusion: I'd rather be in a normal workplace, than one full of leftists. Primarily because you can count on normal workers to have some kind of basic class instinct -- whilst the same, of course, cannot be said of many leftists.

Coprolal1an

2nd July 2007, 19:25

The way I see it, she is entitled to her opinion--who are we to limit her speech? The only reason she should not be able to say these things in this particular instance is because she is telling it to impressionable youth.

Led Zeppelin

2nd July 2007, 19:35

Originally posted by Amusing Scrotum+July 02, 2007 06:03 pm--> (Amusing Scrotum @ July 02, 2007 06:03 pm)
[email protected] 02, 2007 09:13 am
Doen't anybody see anything deeply wrong here?

Looking at this thread, I think you and I are in the minority here. Which brings me to the following conclusion: I'd rather be in a normal workplace, than one full of leftists. Primarily because you can count on normal workers to have some kind of basic class instinct -- whilst the same, of course, cannot be said of many leftists. [/b]
That basic class instinct being not giving a shit, right?

Most workers agree with the majority that posted in this thread, in that fascists are scum and we should fight them at all times, wherever they are. Do you think the bourgeois state put the laws against fascism in place because they hate them so much, or because the working-class forced them to?

Think about that for a second before you come to the defense of the freedom of speech of "nazi/fascist workers".

Coprolal1an

2nd July 2007, 20:30

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 06:35 pm
Think about that for a second before you come to the defense of the freedom of speech of "nazi/fascist workers".
Why can you not protect the right of others to express themselves, without defending what they express?

"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." ~Noam Chomsky

"If all mankind minus one were of one opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind." ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty, 1859

Also, isn't only allowing the speech of those you agree with, while denying the right to everyone else fascist in itself?

Devrim

2nd July 2007, 20:40

Originally posted by Leninism
Think about that for a second before you come to the defense of the freedom of speech of "nazi/fascist workers".

Neither AS or I defended the fredom of speech of Nazi/Fascist workers. 'Coprolal1an' did, but we certainly didn't.

What I said was that one anti-semitic remark does not make somebody a Nazi, or a fascist, and that we don't run to the bosses to ask them to discipline people.

Devrim

Led Zeppelin

2nd July 2007, 20:53

Actually I know that was your position, not sure about AS though. As for Coprolal1an, I don't believe in the liberal notion of total "free speech", because it's bullshit.

A-S M.

2nd July 2007, 21:17

take a dump on het car, wont do anything but it could be fun ^^

Entrails Konfetti

3rd July 2007, 00:18

You shouldn't run to the management.
When your head is on the plate in the future you will be expected to compromise with the management because they saved you from this treachery.
All you have to do is counter her really bad arguments:
*Brains don't oxidize.

*Stalin had webbed feet, and poxmarks plus he allegedy said "My heart has turned to stone" when his first wife died-- who'd wanna cuddle that? Also, bring up his forced collectivizations, prison camps, how horribly he treated his son (who ran into an electric fence at a concentration camp when Stalin told the Nazis upon his capture " I have no son")

*The Jews did not bring the Holocaust on themselves, there are many ways to say how.

Theres this jerk I work with who makes me do all the work. He pisses me off,
from what I know is that he doesn't need to work-- he's retired, and lives off the interest from the bank, has no kids, lives in a nice house, has decent healthcare, and there are others who I think need the job worse than him. But I could be wrong about him. Still-- I get into the position where he will actually do a job because I'm busy doing something else. I don't have to say anything to the management. If he really is incapable of doing as much as I can do, and needs the money-- I understand. If hes just being a jerk-- Well I'm not going to be there forever, hes not as bad as the bosses of the company we work for.
Someday we will all stand around and bullshit while the machinery does the work for us.

Devrim

3rd July 2007, 00:57

Originally posted by EL [email protected] 02, 2007 11:18 pm
Theres this jerk I work with who makes me do all the work. He pisses me off,
from what I know is that he doesn't need to work-- he's retired, and lives off the interest from the bank, has no kids, lives in a nice house, has decent healthcare, and there are others who I think need the job worse than him. But I could be wrong about him. Still-- I get into the position where he will actually do a job because I'm busy doing something else. I don't have to say anything to the management. If he really is incapable of doing as much as I can do, and needs the money-- I understand. If hes just being a jerk-- Well I'm not going to be there forever, hes not as bad as the bosses of the company we work for.

Interesting argument from EK. He has a problem with a guy at work. Funnily enough, he doesn't run to the management and say "Boss, boss, he doesn't work hard enough."

So with this woman, who may have a few anti-Semitic ideas, but nobody has proved is a fascist (and I really doubt she is). You all want to run screaming to the boss.

I remember having an argument with someone who wanted to scab on a strike at work about twenty years ago. Unfortunately it ended up in a bar fight. In the end though he struck with the rest of us. What should I have done? Run to the boss screaming "Boss, Boss, he wants to scab".

Maybe, none of you have ever worked (I presume this about the original poster because he talks about his school). When however you do start work, you will realise that lots of workers make racist, sexist, or homophobic comments.

What are you going to do, argue with them in front of other workers explaining why they are wrong, or run to your boss winging about 'fascists'?

EK, and AS show a working class perspective on this thread. The response of the rest of you is typical petty-bourgeois leftism.

Devrim

Leo

3rd July 2007, 01:08

Hmm, do you say this in general, or only when we encounter fascists among the working class?

I think he is talking about when we encounter fascists among the working class.

LuÃs Henrique

3rd July 2007, 01:30

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 09:13 am
Doen't anybody see anything deeply wrong here?
Yes, and I can even say what is wrong. It is the lack of a mass perspective.

You confront those people politically from below - from a students' movement - or you don't.

Luís Henrique

More Fire for the People

3rd July 2007, 02:35

Spread posters defaming her, gather mass student opposition to her, and force the school to fire her. On her last day, key her car.

Entrails Konfetti

3rd July 2007, 02:44

Originally posted by Hopscotch [email protected] 03, 2007 01:35 am
Spread posters defaming her, gather mass student opposition to her, and force the school to fire her. On her last day, key her car.
Again running to management.

Besides, what would be the point in firing her? Shes going to retire soon anyways.

Entrails Konfetti

3rd July 2007, 02:49

Originally posted by Barish+July 03, 2007 01:39 am--> (Barish @ July 03, 2007 01:39 am)
[email protected] 02, 2007 11:57 pm
Interesting argument from EK. He has a problem with a guy at work. Funnily enough, he doesn't run to the management and say "Boss, boss, he doesn't work hard enough."
It's not the same thing. So if you knew a worker who is a murderer and rapist, you wouldn't tell the police? [/b]
:huh:
Its' very rare that a murderer/ rapist would tell fellow workers about their deeds...
this question doesn't deserve a serious response.

Answer: NO I'd hack them up into six pieces, have sex with their parts, and feed them to the pigs (the farm animal kind). Haven't you ever watched Snatch?

More Fire for the People

3rd July 2007, 02:52

Originally posted by EL KABLAMO+July 02, 2007 07:44 pm--> (EL KABLAMO @ July 02, 2007 07:44 pm)
Hopscotch [email protected] 03, 2007 01:35 am
Spread posters defaming her, gather mass student opposition to her, and force the school to fire her. On her last day, key her car.
Again running to management.

Besides, what would be the point in firing her? Shes going to retire soon anyways. [/b]
It's not 'running' to the management it's making demands to the management. There's a difference between asking for removal and demanding removal. :rolleyes: Are you saying workers shouldn't strike to removal certain abusive foreman?

Entrails Konfetti

3rd July 2007, 02:55

Originally posted by Hopscotch [email protected] 03, 2007 01:52 am
It's not 'running' to the management it's making demands to the management. There's a difference between asking for removal and demanding removal. :rolleyes: Are you saying workers shouldn't strike to removal certain abusive foreman?
You have a different perspective on teachers than I do. You must think they belong to a section of the upper-classes.

More Fire for the People

3rd July 2007, 03:00

Originally posted by EL KABLAMO+July 02, 2007 07:55 pm--> (EL KABLAMO @ July 02, 2007 07:55 pm)
Hopscotch [email protected] 03, 2007 01:52 am
It's not 'running' to the management it's making demands to the management. There's a difference between asking for removal and demanding removal. :rolleyes: Are you saying workers shouldn't strike to removal certain abusive foreman?
You have a different perspective on teachers than I do. You must think they belong to a section of the upper-classes. [/b]
Nope, they're workers and one of the most vanguard sections of the working class. But under certain conditions teachers can use their powers to elevate their position to that of oppressor. No deference for oppressors, no stopping the oppressed. If liberating / oppressed teachers were to join oppressed students it would be even better.

Entrails Konfetti

3rd July 2007, 03:13

Originally posted by Hopscotch [email protected] 03, 2007 02:00 am
Nope, they're workers and one of the most vanguard sections of the working class. But under certain conditions teachers can use their powers to elevate their position to that of oppressor. No deference for oppressors, no stopping the oppressed. If liberating / oppressed teachers were to join oppressed students it would be even better.
You equated a teacher with a foreman.

More Fire for the People

3rd July 2007, 03:16

Originally posted by EL KABLAMO+July 02, 2007 08:13 pm--> (EL KABLAMO @ July 02, 2007 08:13 pm)
Hopscotch [email protected] 03, 2007 02:00 am
Nope, they're workers and one of the most vanguard sections of the working class. But under certain conditions teachers can use their powers to elevate their position to that of oppressor. No deference for oppressors, no stopping the oppressed. If liberating / oppressed teachers were to join oppressed students it would be even better.
You equated a teacher with a foreman. [/b]
I think you're taking the analogy too seriously. I'm talking about a power-relationship not a class-relationship. For instance, a male worker and a female worker are equally working class but when the male worker initiates sexual violence against the female worker he puts himself in the position of oppressor.

Entrails Konfetti

3rd July 2007, 03:33

Originally posted by Hopscotch [email protected] 03, 2007 02:16 am
I think you're taking the analogy too seriously. I'm talking about a power-relationship not a class-relationship. For instance, a male worker and a female worker are equally working class but when the male worker initiates sexual violence against the female worker he puts himself in the position of oppressor.
Now you're equating a kooky teacher with a sex offender.

A kooky teacher, who's very likely no ones mentor can be fought off with arguments.

A sex offender, when they are fiddling your bits is fought off with violence, in self-defence.

I think you're taking this to extremes.

Devrim

3rd July 2007, 08:27

Can we put this back in perspective. This woman is neither Hitler,nor Ted Bundy. In fact, she is probably not a fascist at all, and almost certainly not a mass murderer.

She is a woman, who made one anti-semitic remark allegedly (remember the original poster didn't hear it himself).

Actually coupled with the remark about Stalin being cuddly*, I would guess that this is a woman who in all likelyhood tends to consider herself as on the left.

If I hear anti-semitic remarks at work, I argue against them. That is it.

Devrim

*There is quite a bit of anti-semitism amongst that generation of Stalinists.

Led Zeppelin

3rd July 2007, 08:40

Originally posted by Devrim
EK, and AS show a working class perspective on this thread. The response of the rest of you is typical petty-bourgeois leftism.

Devrim

Haha, typical petty-bourgeois leftism? How does this have anything to do with class, at all?

I've noticed that ultra-leftist types like yourself like to throw around the "petty-bourgeois" slur whenever you're arguing against a position you don't like.

It works, until you say that to a member of the working-class, which shatters your petty theory.

Anyway, EK and AS's position is not the working class perspective on this issue, there is no working class perspective on it. You do not speak for the working class, neither do it, at least I'm not pompous enough to claim I do.

So please stop trying to muddy the issue with bullshit commentry about one's class having anything to do with their position on this issue and try to argue your side with logical arguments.

There have been cases wherein workers, or class-conscious workers, do go to the management to complain about other workers, who are either racists, sexists, fascists, etc. and the management opposes it. Of course they oppose it not because they care so much about that particular worker, but because they don't care so much about the offense. The majority of workers, at least in this country, will not stand for Nazism, fascism, racism or any of that reactionary shit and they WILL join a campaign to get rid of that.

That is what will force the manangement to take action against that reactionary worker.

Now of course we're not arguing that, are we? You're arguing that she isn't really a fascist or nazi, and that therefore nothing should be done except counter her arguments. Well, of course if she isn't a Nazi or fascist that's what should be done, but how the hell do you know the situation? Do you live there? Did you experience it? No, you are basing it off the original poster. So instead of going around calling people petty political slurs that are meaningless, at least wait until the original poster gives some more info on her position, because that's what your entire argument is based on anyway, and we might agree on it based on what the original poster says about her.

Devrim

3rd July 2007, 09:18

Originally posted by Leninism+--> (Leninism)Now of course we're not arguing that, are we? You're arguing that she isn't really a fascist or nazi, and that therefore nothing should be done except counter her arguments. Well, of course if she isn't a Nazi or fascist that's what should be done, but how the hell do you know the situation? Do you live there? Did you experience it? No, you are basing it off the original poster. So instead of going around calling people petty political slurs that are meaningless, at least wait until the original poster gives some more info on her position, because that's what your entire argument is based on anyway, and we might agree on it based on what the original poster says about her.[/b]

I know as much about the situation as you do. I also know enough about schoolkids to know that when one of them calls a school teacher a fascist, it doesn' always mean that she is a fully fledged member of the Waffen SS.

As I said before, lots of workers make anti-semetic, rascist, or sexist remarks. You state that:

Leninism
The majority of workers, at least in this country, will not stand for Nazism, fascism, racism or any of that reactionary shit

Well, I don't know where you work, but it is completly the opposite of my experience.
Remember here that we are talking about casual remarks, not organised fascism.

It works, until you say that to a member of the working-class, which shatters your petty theory.

I don't think you understand this. It is talking about your political perspective, not your sociological origins.

Devrim

Led Zeppelin

3rd July 2007, 09:30

Well this argument is pretty useless, neither of us know the situation, so what is the point of it? If she is a fascist, who really does believe in that crap, then action should be taken, if it was just a stupid passing remark then it should be countered through discussion at first, and if that doesn't work take action.

Either way, if she is serious about her remarks and will come to the defense of them when they are challenged, she is clearly a conscious anti-semite, so in that case action should be taken outside of trying to reason with her, because that will have proven not to have worked.

Leo

3rd July 2007, 10:45

Originally posted by El Kablamo+--> (El Kablamo)Haven't you ever watched Snatch?[/b]

I did; incredible film.

Leninism
Haha, typical petty-bourgeois leftism? How does this have anything to do with class, at all?

It has to do with class ideology, not sociological class background.

Either way, if she is serious about her remarks and will come to the defense of them when they are challenged, she is clearly a conscious anti-semite, so in that case action should be taken outside of trying to reason with her

I don't think "taking action" against an individual, beating up or getting fired a teacher is something will wipe out antisemitism at all. This is the way the bourgeoisie has been "dealing" with antisemitism, racism and such. We know that it hasn't worked.

A fellow workers might be an asshole, might be antisemitic, might be a racist, might be a fascist even. If you run to the management to get him fired, if you beat him up, if you go and destroy his car, you will hurt this person alright, but you will not really change anything. If you discuss with this person you can prove this person wrong very easily. If you go on strike and this person participates in the strike, you can even show him that he was wrong. We can destroy racism and such not in the manager's office but in the picket line.

midnight marauder

3rd July 2007, 10:56

I've been in a few similiar situations to what's going on in this discussion.

Two major examples I managed to stop more or less effectively. The first, was a (female) teacher who would start off each day making sexist male v female jokes that did little more to reinforce patriarchal gender roles and would on several occasions make heterosexist comments along the lines of homosexuality being amoral. In the other, I had to deal with a science class teacher who was totally inept at his job. He was the sponser of the school Bible Club and had a bad tendency to bring his religion into the classroom. He would often argue, using anecdotal evidence, subjective opinion, misunderstandings of the scientific method, and all-around incredibly poor logic that one should never expect from a person in his position, with me and some other athiest peers in the classroom.

When this came up, I would argue with each of the teachers where I could. This has the consquence of showing other students that it IS okay to argue with teachers, and it helped other students of mine to speak up with their own opinions. It sometimes helped the situation (a few arguements with other teachers over one time what I'd call "reactionary" comments immidiately put a stop to the discussion -- especially when the teacher realizes that they are wrong and cannot win the discussion, such as taking the time to explain the false world hypothesis to counter the classism when an ISS teacher told me that she did her job because "somebody has to work at McDonald's), but in any event, debate is always a beneficial and educational thing to do.

Even when it got me into fits of trouble with my highschool's administration.

In the events I listed above, neither teacher would stop preaching their outdated points of view, so I approached them outside of class and politely asked them to stop doing that.

When that didn't work, I began to keep logs of all the things that each of them said that no respectable educator would find kosher in a classroom. After showing the teachers my records, one stopped, the other told me to go ahead and tell her boss. "They aren't going to do anything for you."

Well, they did, and after her bosses had a discussion with her, she never brought up any more sexist or homophobic drivel again. Although I did get quite a few glares.

I guess the point here is all these people are really just people. I think a lot of people, myself included, tend to see the world in binaries once they become leftists, i.e. facist, reactionary, classist, etc. Most of these types of people aren't any of these things, they're just ignorant, and can be very willing to stop their ways when their flaws are countered through intelligent and polite debate.

Failing that, I personally have no qualms about appealing to administrative action. High school management is full of corrupt ideologies and harmful practices, but the people in charge of high schools are well meaning folk who believe whole-heartedly that what they're doing is right. I'd be willing to say that most principals and other school leaders would have no problem adressing these sorts of inappropriate comments, especially when they're as clear-cut as the one you posted. Administrators DON'T want their teachers teaching antisemitism, and they will do anything they can do to prevent the incident from gaining any further exposure.

Whatever you decide to do, good luck in getting this type of shit out of the system.

Tommy-K

7th July 2007, 09:11

Originally posted by Ulster Socialist+July 01, 2007 05:12 pm--> (Ulster Socialist @ July 01, 2007 05:12 pm)
Tommy-[email protected] 01, 2007 09:53 am
This woman, is a *****.

She told a ginger girl that the only reason she was ginger, is that her brain was rusting and leaking into her hair.

She also described Stalin as 'cuddly'.

But the one thing, that shocked me more than anything, was this:

Whilst teaching a class about Nazi Germany, she decided that, although it goes against the National Curicculum, she would instill her own views onto the poor, unsuspecting class, and proclaimed:

"The Jews brought the Holocaust upon themselves."

Now this has only just come to my attention, I was told by someone and have had it backed up by others. This ***** is retiring at the end of this school year (i.e. in about 2 weeks). The question is this...should I just let her retire and never hear of her again, or shall I report her now so she goes out in shame.
Rather than attempting to get her silenced, You should have challenged her views there and then ( I would have) It would have embarressed the fuck out of her and possibly prevented her racist bullshit perpetrating the minds of your classmates.
Or next time bring a dictaphone into your class and record her to let the senior teachers listen. If they fail to take an interest, try the local newspapers.
Job's a good one. ;) [/b]
I wasn't in the class. I don't study History. I heard it from several good friends who were in the class.