About the situation in Palestine

[Katyusha]

Hello dear comrades
It's wonderful to join this great forum : ) , and i would like to start a topic about what is going on in Palestine these days .

A lot of you heard about the last clashes between Fateh & Hamas in Gaza strip and that Hamas control Gaza now !

Let me explain for you the situation since Oslo Agreement until the last events .
In 1993 Yasser Arafat ( The Leader of PLO ) signed the first peace agreement with Israel ( Oslo Agreement ) alone with his group ( Fateh ) while USA & Israel were happy to change Arafat's believes ti liberate the entire of Palestine finaly ! . That agreement made ( Autonomy ) for Palestinian in some areas in the west bank and gaza ( but in truth Palestinian were controled by isrealis and the new palestinian authority could live by international help only ! ) .
In 1998 Arafat cancelled " The Palestinian National Charter " which contains the basic principles of the palestinian struggle against Zionism ( he cancelled it in front of Israeli PM and the american president ).

So the Palestinian Authority was built on the cancellation of palestine's martyrs blood and palestine people struggle to be slavishness for Zionism and USA !

Later in the Palestinian Parliament Elections ( in 2006 ) Hamas had a big victory in that elections ! immediatly there was worldwide siege on the palestinain led by USA cuz they elected Hamas in democratic way !!

After about a year of trouples between the previos leader group ( Fateh ) and Hamas they agreed in Saudia Arabia for a Unity Government . But after three months exactly in 14/6/2007 Hamas with it's military power started an attack to end Fateh illegal control to the palestinian authority army which recieve the support from USA in gaza ! in days hamas finished the successful attack .

But what did hamas found ?
Hamas discovered dangerous things were found in the security troops places . They found that those security troops were having the support from USA and Israel ( as i said before ) and serves USA by spying to countries considered as enemies for USA like Iraq and Iran . They found that those troops were torturing the palestinian struggle men ( specialy hamas and left movements ) cuz those men resist Israel animal policy ! They found many files about the security men specialy that famous one " Mohammad Dahlan " .. ( don't fogret that Nosh said once about Dahlan : He is our man ! ) . Beside that they discovered that those troops were filming porn tips of palestinian leaders and ministers to blackmail them !

After Hamas las victory .. what do " human rights associations " say ?
Yes , Hamas is a religios movement but every one ( even the human rights associations ) in Gaza now agrees that there is more security and organizing after hamas victory ! They say now after years on danger we can go out and live in peace , and Hamas did NOT harm the public freedoms ! .. so many of gaza people believe that the security troops were the reason of the danger previos years !

What do Israel say ?
Israel refuses Hamas in every way , plus that Israel controls the roads and " gates " of Gaza strip and they are threating gaza people to cut the help , food , water , and electricity !

What is the left position ?
Usualy the radical palestinain left refuses any supported group by USA ( like Fateh ) so they don't mind about hamas control in gaza ! the other leftist movements refused hamas military attack and prefer more democratic way to deal with the issues ! ( many of those leftist movements kiss fateh ass to get money ! ) .

What did Fateh do after Hamas victory ?
The Palestinian President " Mahmoud Abbas " who is the leader of Fateh stopped the legal parliament cuz most of it's member from hamas ! and created an " Emergency Government " didn't have the parliament approval !!!


Now i think i finished my topic , hope every thing is clear for you : )

[NDVNDV]

you're talking so many bullshit
every reasonable man in palestine is afraid of hamas and blames it for the crisis in gaza.
no one there is struggling to be slavishness Zionism and USA !

i agree that the hamas won the elections in a democratic way but i'm sure that most of their electors are regreting for choosing them.

i don't know about the palestinian left but i'm sure the DO mind about hamas control in gaza

[NDVNDV]

why isn't there an edit button :S (edit: =\ it just didn't show up when i wrote this message)
--
i noticed that you're from palestine... hope you didn't vote for the hamas...

[Katyusha]

Hi comrade ,

No I didn't vote ofr any one cuz i refuse Oslo agreement and i think you know that the election is built on Oslo Agreement : )
If you agree that hamas won in a democratic way , then you should agree that they are allowed to fix the security troops leadership who get support from USA and use their place to steal money and power !

About accepting hamas in gaza : im talking about the simple gaza human , who wants to live in peace , they were not happy for the clashes but now they feel good because of the unusual security those days ! .. Be sure when hamas hurt the freedoms i will be against them .. but that doesn't mean i will accept groups get support , money , weapons from imperialism countries like USA .

The left don't mind about hamas control , cuz they relize that palestinian people chose hamas ! they just mind about the military way !
The only movement who refuses hamas in any way and made problems for them and tried to start a civil war to show hamas as loosers are Fateh : )

[NDVNDV]

so what are you saying is that the leftists in palestine are only thinking about themselves
and not about the poor people in "Sederot" that live in a big fear and are threatened from the 'kasam's every day, and the others poor people in gaza that don't agree with you...
and the acting of hamas is not different from the nazism, except hamas doesn't have a "real" reason for killing all their opponents and they're just shooting poor people in the streets, and robbing their property when they don't fight back and just run away

[Revolution Until Victory]

Katyusha, you Palestinian?

I'm Palestinian too.


every reasonable man in palestine is afraid of hamas and blames it for the crisis in gaza.

no, every reasonable man in Palestine agrees with Hamas. Hamas has won a democratic elections. Fateh refused to give up power. Hamas had to act militarly to

1) take what rightly belongs to them through the gun since democracy didn't work

2) prevent a coup by the isolated traitor Dahlan gang.



i agree that the hamas won the elections in a democratic way but i'm sure that most of their electors are regreting for choosing them.

no


don't know about the palestinian left but i'm sure the DO mind about hamas control in gaza

no they don't. the marxist-maosit or marxist-leninst DFLP and the Marxist-leninist PFLP are members of the PLO, so they simply say they are against Hamas taking control militarly, but at the same time, they area against the traitor Abbas and his emergency government.
the PFLP and the DFLP have a perfect relationship with the two Islamic groups in Palestine.
all of the Palestinian liberation movments exist for one reason and one reason only: the total liberation of Palestine, no communism, not Islam.
that's why they all coporate with each others and are complete allies.
just yesterday, the marxist-leninst PFLP have spotted a zionist special unit invading Gaza and clashed with them, with the coporation of the islamic movment, the Palestinina Islamic Jihad.

[Revolution Until Victory]

so what are you saying is that the leftists in palestine are only thinking about themselves

no, the left doesn't think only of itself and that isn't what he said



and not about the poor people in "Sederot" that live in a big fear and are threatened from the 'kasam's every day

lol, you are not serious are you???

the "poor" people of "Sederot"??!!

since when are colonizers "poor"?

I bet you think the French colonizers where "poor", suffering attacks by the Algerian revolution

or you think the Rhodesian colonizers were "poor" suffering from the attacks by the ZAPU and ZANU, right?

colonizers are NOT "poor"; they are COLONIZERS.

they should be threatend every single minute by the Kasams and the Soumud Rocket and the Quds Rocket and all other kinds of weapon. they are colonizers.

for your information, among the most deadly attacks on Sedrot was by the leftist PFLP, in which a colonizer was killed and another injured.

[NDVNDV]

so i guess you and all the others "left" palestines cannot have a real discussion with people who do care
--
leave USA for the moment.
from what you're saing i can understand from you that you think that if hamas won the elections it is fine and 'virtuous' to kill innocent people and even people within them and justify the civil war

--

just read your last post...
you are a disgusting man and you insult the left, reasonable side which doesn't want anyone to be hurt and thinks that negotiations is the way to solve that situation.

BTW i'm from israel and thanks for hating me, i really appreciate that!
i'm only considering if i should hate you to though
cause we're all human (although i'm starting to lose this belief after your last post)

[Katyusha]

Comrade ,
You are accusing me something i didn't say !
The left in Palestine is so weak ! im angry for that but it's the truth !

who talked about Sederot ?
Is the topic about the Palestinian - Israeli fight ??

The left here is so radical ! so they don't care about Sederot people cuz they consider Israel illegal state !
and don't tell me about that shit .. you know that zionism is just like nazism .. there is no difference .. nazism wanted to cancel non german .. and zionism wants to cancel any palestinian live on his homeland .

Hamas has the right to defence about their lives and the palestinian democratic against a group on Fateh wants to be a helping hand for america in Palestine !
Looks like you refuse hamas and thats okay .. but you accept other movements want to bring USA controlling to Palestine !!!

[Revolution Until Victory]

The left in Palestine is so weak ! im angry for that but it's the truth !

no not really. the left world wide was negativley effected by the USSR, but the left is still strong in Palestine.

the second largest faction in the PLO is the leftist PFLP.

the PFLP were the only one to be able to assasinate a zionsist minister in the second uprising (Zeevi, minister of toursim October 17, 2001)

not to mention all other other attempted assasinations, one of which was against Olmert, but the PFLP member got imprisoned.

the PFLP was also the first group to introduce mortar attacks from Gaza.

the PFLP almost daily is involved in military attacks and operations: sniping soldiers, armed clashes with special units, defending in invasions, rocket attacks, assasinations, kidnappings, etc.

the DFLP is minor compared to the other groups, but they too are quiet active. they constantly are involved in rocket attacks against the zionist colony, and just 2 days ago they escaped an assasination attempt.

[NDVNDV]

read my edit that is refers to "Revolution Until Victory" last post
here it is:


just read your last post...
you are a disgusting man and you insult the left, reasonable side which doesn't want anyone to be hurt and thinks that negotiations is the way to solve that situation.

BTW i'm from israel and thanks for hating me, i really appreciate that!
i'm only considering if i should hate you to though
cause we're all human (although i'm starting to lose this belief after your last post)

=========
i told you to leave USA for a moment...

do you think that all these things that hamas are doing are virtuous?

=======

btw.... zionism isn't even similar to the zionism before the establishment of the State of Israel

today i have almost no leftist friends.
in every israeli forum that i go i find israelis cursing all arabic (doens't make any distinctions) and wish them to die.
and each dos calles himself a zionist so leave this expression

[Katyusha]

NDVNDV :
what reasponsible people ??
are you saying that people who serve USA and do american ready plans in Palestine and creating death gangs and hurting good people in prisons are reasponsible ?
Hamas does not have the right to fight them in legal way ??

by the way , Yes you are human , but don't forget that every israeli (human) is a reservist soldier and when a big war happen they call for them .. so some day you'll kill us right ?

[NDVNDV]

have MSN?
mine:
[email protected]

i won't kill any arabic that doesn't want to kill me! and israel won't call me to fight cause i won't stand up and fight like a robot that doesn't look around and shoots without distinctions!
don't blame me for all the stupid israelis that raised their kids in a way that they doesn't see the different between good and bad, they just curse him for being arabic
--
reasonable people are aginst war of any kind
and just want to have peace and quiet.
those are people that want their representors to discuss instead of shoot

[Revolution Until Victory]

you are a disgusting man and you insult the left, reasonable side which doesn't want anyone to be hurt and thinks that negotiations is the way to solve that situation.

you are 13 yrs old, righ?

anyways, the left stands for justice.
there could be NO negotiations or "peace" talks with imperialism and colonialism.

colonialism and imperialism should be eradicted. period.


BTW i'm from israel and thanks for hating me, i really appreciate that!
i'm only considering if i should hate you to though
cause we're all human (although i'm starting to lose this belief after your last post)

I hate the French colonizers of Algeria, the European colonizers of South Africa, the Portugese colonizers of Angola, the Dutch colonizers of Indonesia, Belguim colonizers of Congo, the European colonizers of North "America", the British colonizers of India and the Zionist colonizers of Palestine.


reasonable people are aginst war of any kind
and just want to have peace and quiet.
those are people that want their representors to discuss instead of shoot

the ONLY way for peace and quiet is the total defeat of imperialism and colonialism. this can't be achieved through "peace" talks or negotiations.
it could only be achieved through People's war, revolutionary violence, and popular guerilla warfare.

[NDVNDV]

not talking to you anymore cause you're not a man that i can talk to.
so this message is only for Katyusha
if you leave israel's&USAs stupidity for a moment (which i don't justify!)
and try to see what i'm really trying to say,
is that you don't care about other people!
you said it yourself!
they don't care about Sederot people
(although i don't know what do you mean buy saying "they don't...")
I think you should care about each one of us as i care about each suffering palestine that has no food and water,
and his standard of living is very, very low.
and if you do think like i am,
the most "correct" way to divide all the people israel (inc. palestine area),
is people like you and I
and in the other side all the people that are full of hate to each other,
and think of nothing but killing each other, and make the other suffer.

are we getting somewhere in this discussion?

=========

to Revolution Until Victory:

I hate the French colonizers of Algeria, the European colonizers of South Africa, the Portugese colonizers of Angola, the Dutch colonizers of Indonesia, Belguim colonizers of Congo, the European colonizers of North "America", the British colonizers of India and the Zionist colonizers of Palestine.
you actually hate any person that is trying to mix with other people,
and that you think that every race/group of people
should stay only among themselves.
there's a man that thought like you in the past... there were a lot of them but he almost made it... hmmm
what was his name?
oh...
HITLER!!

[Revolution Until Victory]

I think you should care about each one of us as i care about each suffering palestine that has no food and water,
and his standard of living is very, very low.

lol, you can't be any more mistanken!!!

the Palestinian liberation movment and the Palestinian revolution cares about the jews of Palestine. that's why it wants to liberate BOTH arab AND jew from imperialism and colonialims. coz we CARE about you we want to liberate you from imperialism and colonialism which have been exploiting for decades.

this is from the program of the PFLP:


The Palestinian liberation movement is not racist or hostile to the Jews. It is not aimed at the Jewish people. Its aim is to break the Israeli military, political and economic entity which is based on aggression, expansion and organic unity with the interests of imperialism in our homeland. It is against Zionism as a racist aggressive movement in alliance with imperialism. Zionism has capitalised on the suffering of the Jewish people to serve its interests and those of imperialism in this rich part of the world, which is the gateway to the countries of Africa and Asia. The aim of the Palestinian liberation movement is the establishment of a national democratic state in Palestine in which the Arabs and Jews can live as equal citizens with regard to rights and duties, forming an integral part of the democratic progressive Arab national existence which will live peacefully with all the progressive forces in the world.


you actually hate any person that is trying to mix with other people,
and that you think that every race/group of people
should stay only among themselves.

:lol:

[NDVNDV]

ok... so if you'll see me in an imaginary place,
and you'll have the possibility to kill me without knowing my opinion first,
will you do it? will you kill me for being jew cause there's nothing i can do about it?

other case:
you saw in the news that an israeli plane crashed,
will you be happy?

[NDVNDV]

the Palestinian liberation movment and the Palestinian revolution cares about the jews of Palestine. that's why it wants to liberate BOTH arab AND jew from imperialism and colonialims. coz we CARE about you we want to liberate you from imperialism and colonialism which have been exploiting for decades.
--

they should be threatend every single minute by the Kasams and the Soumud Rocket and the Quds Rocket and all other kinds of weapon
can't you see the contradiction it these things you wrote?
you wan't to free our both from something but you don't want to leave in peace with us, claiming that we take your land or something like that?
i believe that most of the israelis in sederot are colonizers,
and most of the colonizers i hate to becacause of their bad thinking that is very close to nazism.
but do i shoot them?
think of the human brain for a moment.
you have being raised to think that justice is good and all that...
and this is what you grew up to be.
but these people think that their opinion are better cause this is what they learned.
and if you attack them for that, and they live through attacks, and their parents tell them that "the bad guys" are attacking us for being "good"
so they will grow up to fight you back cause this is what they know

[Revolution Until Victory]

ok... so if you'll see me in an imaginary place,
and you'll have the possibility to kill me without knowing my opinion first,
will you do it? will you kill me for being jew cause there's nothing i can do about it?

if I saw you in an imagenary place, and I knew you were a colonizer, and you were not a minor and over 18, and thus responsible for your colonial actions, then yes, as colonized Palestinian, I will fight my colonizers.
I don't care about your opnion. I won't kill you for have an imperialist or racist opnion. I won't kill you for what you think, rather, what you do.
I won't kill you for being jew, muslim, or chirstian. that's just laughable.



you saw in the news that an israeli plane crashed,
will you be happy?

again, I need more information.
if the plance was full of adult colonizers, then, who wouldn't be happy that colonizers are being harmed?


can't you see the contradiction it these things you wrote?

you are welcome to live next to me as an EQUAL, not as a colonizer.
I didn't contradict myself. I said those in Sedrot should be targeted coz they are colonizers, not simply coz they are jewish or coz of their opnion.


you wan't to free our both from something but you don't want to leave in peace with us, claiming that we take your land or something like that?

yes, I want to live in peace with you, but as an equal, not as a colonizer and a colonized, master and slave.


i believe that most of the israelis in sederot are colonizers,
and most of the colonizers i hate to becacause of their bad thinking that is very close to nazism.
but do i shoot them?

you hold a smilar view of mine. but, unlike you, I dont' care about thier opnion.
I will fight them coz revolutionary violence, peoples war, and popular guerilla warfae is the way for the total defeat of zionist colonialism and imperialism.



but these people think that their opinion are better cause this is what they learned.
and if you attack them for that, and they live through attacks, and their parents tell them that "the bad guys" are attacking us for being "good"
so they will grow up to fight you back cause this is what they know

see, I don't attack them for the what they were brought up to think. I attack them for their actions. I attack them for being colonizers. I attack them for the same reason the French colonizers were attacked in Algeria, the European colonizers in North "America', the Portugese colonizers in Angola, the European colonizers in Zimbabwe, and all other colonized nations.

[NDVNDV]

but as i said... the actions they do is what the learned to do (not just to think...)
and how do you see people in sederot colonizers?
you can see people as your neighbors and you can see them as colonizers
this is, again, what you learned to think, what youre surroundings told you to think, as the "zionist" see the arabics as an annoyance that should be expelled from israel (i don't think like that.. just telling you what some do..)
and believe me that i also don't like them... and i may even curse them for that... but not more!
i don't see the possibility of killing them as a solution.
and the same at the other side, when you say you want to live in peace with me, they are some of your friends that don't.
i won't kill them for that of course, but if we'll live together in peace, there won't be peace cause they'll try to kill all jews&even the extremist will kill anyone that want to live in peace with us...

[NDVNDV]

wrote an explenation about zionism of today, and zionism of the past.


i really do think that there was other zionism in the past,
not religious ones, people who were the working class like my family that came from poland for only good reasons, and not like the zionists of today,
the religious that don't do anything but complaining and want the arabics the go away.
they were the people who really cared about israel and built it from zero.
they were poor, weak, some of them went to israel before WWII and some survived the holocaust, and today's zionist "greatness" is teaching from the bible and want others to go to work and give them money.

[Revolution Until Victory]

but as i said... the actions they do is what the learned to do (not just to think...)

well, I don't care about their opnion, until this opnion and thinking turns into action.

in other words, the zionists can think whatever they want. I dont' give a shit.

but when their thinking turns to action, when they are colonizers, then yes, I do care.


i don't see the possibility of killing them as a solution.

what is the solution then?

[PRC-UTE]

so the PFLP is still active? I know their secretary was imprisoned.

[NDVNDV]

if i did knew the solution i'd offer it :P
a solution isn't supposed to be violent...

[Dimentio]

But you do know it? ;)

Building the temple together with the mosque :P

[NDVNDV]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 10:25 pm
But you do know it? ;)

Building the temple together with the mosque :P
well, there is kind of this thing....
where i live there's harmony between all man of all kind :P
and there are all praying buildings for all religions that are in here... ;)
they are not attached but they are scattered where there's community that needs it over the city...

[Revolution Until Victory]

so the PFLP is still active? I know their secretary was imprisoned.

of course they are! they are among the most active, powerful and popular Palestinian group (regardless of the result of the elections in which less than 1/3 of the Palestinian people where only able to vote).


if i did knew the solution i'd offer it
a solution isn't supposed to be violent...

I know a solution and it is supposed to be violent.

the same solution in Zimbabwe, Algeira, South Africa, Angola, Congo, Indonesia and most other settler-colonies: revolutionary violence, people's war, and popular guerilla warfare.

[NDVNDV]

but i don't this will lead to the result that you expect for...
as imperialist USA stands next to Israel...
it's like NPO in CN browser game...
---
and i'm not going to stay still while you're killing people...
the reason doesn't matter!
it is not virtuous :angry:
and you can't fight fatah either...
if you said in one of the first posts that you have security
why do you need to break it buy keep fighting?
you already got the government...

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by Revolution Until [email protected] 30, 2007 10:39 pm

so the PFLP is still active? I know their secretary was imprisoned.

of course they are! they are among the most active, powerful and popular Palestinian group (regardless of the result of the elections in which less than 1/3 of the Palestinian people where only able to vote).
Glad to hear it. The PFLP have always been one of our best allies.

[Revolution Until Victory]

but i don't this will lead to the result that you expect for...
as imperialist USA stands next to Israel...
it's like NPO in CN browser game...

so??? all former imperialists were MUCH stronger than the people they were occupying and colonizing, yet, through revolutionary violence, popular guerilla warfare, and people's war, colonialism and imperialism got defeated.

and no, we don't have a government or any authority.
there could no "authority" on Bantustans.

[Katyusha]

NDVNDV :
Thanks for changing the topic ! now .. can you throw ur lies our of here ??
There is a difference between jew & israeli ! beside that there are some jews worked with the palestinian liberation movement ( there is a jew member in Fateh ) and there are jew members in the PLO from " Natury Carta " movement ! don't forget that the national palestinian charter said that palestinians fighting zionism as a part of fighting imperialism ! so why are speaking about racism against jews while we were disscusing zionism ??


Now please comrades back to the original point in the topic :)

[NDVNDV]

ok... as i wrote before and you probably didn't see it:
zionism:


i really do think that there was other zionism in the past,
not religious ones, people who were the working class like my family that came from poland for only good reasons, and not like the zionists of today,
the religious that don't do anything but complaining and want the arabics the go away.
they were the people who really cared about israel and built it from zero.
they were poor, weak, some of them went to israel before WWII and some survived the holocaust, and today's zionist "greatness" is teaching from the bible and want others to go to work and give them money.

[Dimentio]

Originally posted by NDVNDV+June 30, 2007 10:31 pm--> (NDVNDV @ June 30, 2007 10:31 pm)
[email protected] 30, 2007 10:25 pm
But you do know it? ;)

Building the temple together with the mosque :P
well, there is kind of this thing....
where i live there's harmony between all man of all kind :P
and there are all praying buildings for all religions that are in here... ;)
they are not attached but they are scattered where there's community that needs it over the city... [/b]
Hm... sorry, I thought you were VNWO in disguise

[NDVNDV]

Originally posted by Serpent+July 01, 2007 02:40 pm--> (Serpent @ July 01, 2007 02:40 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 10:31 pm

[email protected] 30, 2007 10:25 pm
But you do know it? ;)

Building the temple together with the mosque :P
well, there is kind of this thing....
where i live there's harmony between all man of all kind :P
and there are all praying buildings for all religions that are in here... ;)
they are not attached but they are scattered where there's community that needs it over the city...
Hm... sorry, I thought you were VNWO in disguise [/b]
what's "VNWO"?

[Comrade_Scott]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 12:55 pm
you're talking so many bullshit
every reasonable man in palestine is afraid of hamas and blames it for the crisis in gaza.
no one there is struggling to be slavishness Zionism and USA !

i agree that the hamas won the elections in a democratic way but i'm sure that most of their electors are regreting for choosing them.

i don't know about the palestinian left but i'm sure the DO mind about hamas control in gaza
dude im sure you are aware of why hamas is in this situation?? the US demanded elections and hamas won. the us being *****es said they wouldnt accept it and together with the eu and israel they cut off supply to palestine. This along with fatha not wanting to relinquish what they lost ended up in the long internat political conflict. if you look at the average palestinian they blame fatha for aligning with the US and putting them in hell. so they turn to hamas, in short the majority still support hamas because they stuck to there guns and never "sold out" in the eyes of the people. and no i do not support hamas or fatha but BUT!!! i dont agree with demanding elections and then crushing the elected government cause you dont like it..... and thats what the west did

[Severian]

There's an earlier thread on these events (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=67788&st=125)

I think the Palestinian opinion poll I posted at the end is a significant fact about the current situation - one that nobody's responded to so far.