The State - how?

[Apprentice of Marx]

Help a poor soul like me who hasn't read State and Revolution(yet!)

How is the state supposed to "wither" away?

If this has already been discussed then could you please link to that thread!

[redstar2000]

The theory is rather fuzzy, but a reasonable summary would probably go something like this.

The "state" in Marxist terms is the mechanism by which one class rules over another. The victory of communist revolution means the abolition of classes...the capitalist class is deprived of all its wealth and power. Therefore, there is no further need for a state apparatus. Deprived of its central function, the state gradually becomes irrelevant and is eventually abandoned entirely.

In the real world, of course, things are far more complicated. Capitalists do not cease being capitalists in their own minds simply because they have lost their capital. They set to work immediately to regain power, to make a counter-revolution.

They have many allies--racists, religious fundamentalists, philosophical conservatives, open fascists, etc.

Some kind of "state"-apparatus appears to be required to stop their schemes...but how repressive it should be is a matter of heated debate among leftists and even among communists.

In any event, after some period of time has passed, the threat of counter-revolution will have dissipated...and, at that point, the state begins to "wither away."

I would interject into this consensus the idea that the withering of the state apparatus must be a conscious goal of communists; both Marx and Lenin seemed to think it would "just happen". Unless reduction of the authority of the state over the working class begins immediately and progresses steadily...it is all too easy to begin interpreting "dictatorship of the proletariat" as dictatorship over the proletariat. We've already been down that road before...it didn't work.

:cool:

[Revolution Hero]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 10:18 am on Mar. 18, 2003
Some kind of "state"-apparatus appears to be required to stop their schemes...but how repressive it should be is a matter of heated debate among leftists and even among communists.

In any event, after some period of time has passed, the threat of counter-revolution will have dissipated...and, at that point, the state begins to "wither away."





The threat of counter- revolution has to be linked not with internal, but with external factors, particularly with the existence of capitalist states. Thus socialist state will exist till the time of final victory of socialism in all countries. This final victory creates the most important precondition for the transition to communism.

[redstar2000]

I rarely find myself accepting instruction from RH, but this time he definitely has a point. Certainly as long as there are powerful capitalist states still in existence, the working class will need enough of a state of their own to provide for the common defense against external efforts to overthrow the revolution.

Still a sharp eye must be kept that the remnants of capitalism are not used as an "excuse" for a large military establishment far beyond the point that it could ever be needed. The existence of a few dozen weak and backward capitalist countries would not be a valid reason for retaining a huge military machine in the advanced socialist/communist countries.

And one must be extremely careful to avoid conflating the cause of communism with residual nationalist ideologies. Nothing could be more pathetic or more dangerous than to see someday two or more "communist" countries squabbling over "territorial claims" or "national honor." That kind of shit is simply treason to the cause of the working class!

:cool:

[Just Joe]

thats where the Soviet Union went wrong. so concerned with national security, it forgot what it was trying to do.....build Socialism!

i am 100% confident a democratically planned economy is better, more secure and more efficient, yeah you heard me Capitalists, more efficient than a market system. so why pump huge revenues into the military when you can pump money into the people; proving the superiority of Socialism.

learn from the past guys.