anti-conspiracy theories?

[R_P_A_S]

help me understand this...

why does it seem like communist are against conspiracy theories?

[RedCommieBear]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26, 2007 08:03 am
help me understand this...

why does it seem like communist are against conspiracy theories?
Well, because they are almost always irrational with little or no evidence. Of the dozens of conspiracy theories out there (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conspiracy_theories), I have yet to see one that had any shred of evidence. It is also interesting to note that people who believe in one conspriacy theory are more likely to belileve in others (1) (http://www.crab.rutgers.edu/~goertzel/conspire.doc)

Edit: Fixed a double negative (haven't yet seen one?)

[Hit The North]

Conspiracies do happen though. I was involved in one this morning when my flatmate and I pretended to be out and not open the door to the meter man. :D

More seriously, I believe that the US and UK government engaged in a conspiracy to fabricate 'evidence' for an armed assault on Iraq.

The problem with conspiracy as a tool to understand world events, however, is that it assumes a degree of mastery and control over events on the part of the conspirators, which is implausible.

Reality is complex and conspiracy theories attempt to make it simple.

They also tend to exhibit a high degree of paranoia.

[Aurora]

We dont want to identify communism with theorys that may be false.Also conspiracy theorists arent known to be reliable.

Although i wouldnt be surprised if some were true,because nothing capitalism does surprises me anymore.

[Tatarin]

why does it seem like communist are against conspiracy theories?

I think the first answer is that most conspiracy theories are false. Many do not follow a "conspiracy" pattern - that is, if a small group would want to take control over the world, there have been many occasions where such a coup could make big progress, but did not. For example - why did the Soviet Union collapse?

Now, most conspiracy theorists believe in the liberal theory of freedom. Anything on the left - Stalinism to Anarchism - are just "stuff invented" to control people, according to them (i.e., the old argument about the Soviet Union).

Also, conspiracy theorists oversee the root of many global problems. Poverty, war, huge corporate chains, oppressive governments, oppressive police and laws and so on, all are part of a plan to enslave the world. Never do they mention that it is the system itself - capitalism - that has allowed people to gain enormous power and wealth. They want to reduce capitalism, we want to abolish it.


More seriously, I believe that the US and UK government engaged in a conspiracy to fabricate 'evidence' for an armed assault on Iraq.

Those aren't new. The US created groups during the Cold War to create "evidence" that terrorism was actually a global "communist" network - that all groups all over the globe were funded by the Soviet Union. The nazis blamed the communists after the Reichtag fire, also a fabrication.

[bezdomni]

Because people who believe in conspiracy theories think it is important to "FIND OUT EVERYTHING YOU CAN ABOUT COMMITTEE 300!" or "Reopen 9/11!".

The reality is we need to be doing everything we can to overthrow capitalism, not wasting our time with crackpot theories.

Some conspiracies do exist...but there is a difference between acknowledging the existence of actual conspiracies (like Watergate) that are well documented and have plenty of evidence, and being a "conspiracy theorist" nut like du che.

It also really hurts one's credibility when they spew out crap that can't be proven.

Conspiracies or not, capitalism must be overthrown.

[Janus]

Simply put, we communists focus on actual/factually based material issues in the real world. These problems affect us directly and are in front of us; we have no need or desire to make up problems or blame them on mysterious or secretive organizations.

[mikelepore]

One conspiracy theory that I find realistic is that some capitalists have intentionally promoted racism and other forms of bigotry because they knew this would keep workers divided among themselves. When poor workers are blaming their problems on other poor workers, they aren't organizing with them.

Another conspiracy theory that seems realistic is that the capitalist-owned media have a policy of only mentioning socialist organizations in ways that will associate the word "socialism" with totalitarianism. We here know that there's an extensive history of socialist organizations promoting democracy and individual freedom, but one would never hear about that by watching the news on television.

On a related subject, I have been checking the program listings of The History Channel since the mid-1990s. During that time, there have been many programs about technology (building dams, etc.), ancient times (Archimedes, Nero, ....), extensive coverage of Hitler's reign, and frequent programs about the paranormal (flying saucers, haunted houses). Has anyone here ever once seen a program on The History Channel about, or even mentioning, the development of organized labor, unless in was entirely within the a documentary about the Mafia which mentioned the corruption of union leadership? I have never seen a single program on that channel mentioning the existence of a labor movement. The civil rights and peace movements, yes, occasionally, but unions and strikes, no, they are never, ever mentioned. What is the probability of that happening if it were not part of a conscious policy? That certainly comes under the heading of conspiracy.

[Hiero]

One conspiracy theory that I find realistic is that some capitalists have intentionally promoted racism and other forms of bigotry because they knew this would keep workers divided among themselves. When poor workers are blaming their problems on other poor workers, they aren't organizing with them.

Another conspiracy theory that seems realistic is that the capitalist-owned media have a policy of only mentioning socialist organizations in ways that will associate the word "socialism" with totalitarianism. We here know that there's an extensive history of socialist organizations promoting democracy and individual freedom, but one would never hear about that by watching the news on television.

That's not a conspiracy. A conspiracy is a group of people organising some private scheme. The capitalist didn't get together secretly to theorise Social Darwinism. Idealist in bourgeois universities tried to explain how the world works, why Europeans had "advanced" while it seems other "races" were still living in feudal and stone age. The capitalist/colonialist/imperialist accepted this ideas as offical to justify oppression of other "races". Then it becomes accepted in the wider oppressor community which have little idea of how the world works then the bourgeois acadamics of the 19th century.

It is similar when the bourgeois lie about socialist organisations. They are just protecting thier class interest by speading their class ideas through their hegonomy of media.

Marxist put things in the class context. Sure conspiracies do occur, but they are not the primary crime of the bourgeois. They only assist the bourgeois when things go wrong. Conspiracy theorist are anti materialist as they put conspiracy theories as a primary concern and push for public knowledge of government, military and private corporation's daily actons and decisions.

[Janus]

One conspiracy theory that I find realistic is that some capitalists have intentionally promoted racism and other forms of bigotry because they knew this would keep workers divided among themselves. When poor workers are blaming their problems on other poor workers, they aren't organizing with them.

Another conspiracy theory that seems realistic is that the capitalist-owned media have a policy of only mentioning socialist organizations in ways that will associate the word "socialism" with totalitarianism. We here know that there's an extensive history of socialist organizations promoting democracy and individual freedom, but one would never hear about that by watching the news on television.
They shouldn't be considered "conspiracy theories" simply because the term has a specific denotation (it also has a strong connotation due to its usage) and should not be inappropriately used to describe well-documented and substantiated evidence.

[Eleftherios]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26, 2007 08:03 am
help me understand this...

why does it seem like communist are against conspiracy theories?
Because they usually belong to right-wing lunatics who think that Jews want to destroy the white race through race mixing, how Jews rule the world, how the United Nations wants to destroy the United States, how one secret organization has ruled the world for hundreds of years and is responsible for every single major world event, and many more crazy theories

[RedHal]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27, 2007 05:32 pm

One conspiracy theory that I find realistic is that some capitalists have intentionally promoted racism and other forms of bigotry because they knew this would keep workers divided among themselves. When poor workers are blaming their problems on other poor workers, they aren't organizing with them.

Another conspiracy theory that seems realistic is that the capitalist-owned media have a policy of only mentioning socialist organizations in ways that will associate the word "socialism" with totalitarianism. We here know that there's an extensive history of socialist organizations promoting democracy and individual freedom, but one would never hear about that by watching the news on television.
They shouldn't be considered "conspiracy theories" simply because the term has a specific denotation (it also has a strong connotation due to its usage) and should not be inappropriately used to describe well-documented and substantiated evidence.
THat's the problem, the mass media has shoved all these looney consipiracy theories down ppl's throats that ppl now equate the possibility of powerful men getting together to conspire as (lonney) conspiracies.

[R_P_A_S]

I gotta tell you guys. One of the main reasons I ended up on the left wing was because of conspiracy theories like 9/11 and the New world order.. shit that made me see how fucked up the Govt is!!!

[RHIZOMES]

I gotta tell you guys. One of the main reasons I ended up on the left wing was because of conspiracy theories like 9/11 and the New world order.. shit that made me see how fucked up the Govt is!!!

There are REAL conspiracies, which can be proven, that show how fucked up (capitalist) government is. No need to believe in bullshit like 9/11 Truth or the "New World Order" to realize this.

[R_P_A_S]

There are REAL conspiracies, which can be proven, that show how fucked up (capitalist) government is. No need to believe in bullshit like 9/11 Truth or the "New World Order" to realize this.

But it payed the way for me.

[Holden Caulfield]

JFK assasination, blamed on Oswald had evidence, and eye witness account from a good few people

do we believe that one?

[R3V0LUTI0N(A)RY]

As has been said, there are some conspiracies that makes no sense whatsoever, like the one about royal persons and politicians being blood-drinking reptilians from outer space who sacrifice children to satan etc.. and there are those who are quite possible. I believe 9/11 was done by the US government, there is so much that points to it, youtube has lots of videos about the "coinsidencies" that occured, like the fact that the towers were covered in some dangerous metal plating and the owners would have to spend millions to remove it. There was some sort of "installations" being made two weeks before the attacks and nobody was allowed to go inside for days, and the fact that the towers fell just like they would in a controlled explosion. But now Im getting a bit off-topic, I can see theres allready topics about the subject, but the point is, altrough lots of conspiracies are just mad ramblings some of them are propably true. But thats just my opinion.

[chegitz guevara]

and a very ill-informed opinion it is

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Communists don't smoke as much pot as libertarians. :D

[DustWolf]

Conspiracies are an American thing, communism is not.

[RHIZOMES]

JFK assasination, blamed on Oswald had evidence, and eye witness account from a good few people

do we believe that one?

Yes. See Penn & Teller's Bullshit episode on conspiracy theories for explanation.

[Holden Caulfield]

i will, Bill Hicks got me to notice a large wiff of bullshit,

[oujiQualm]

That's not a conspiracy. A conspiracy is a group of people organising some private scheme. The capitalist didn't get together secretly to theorise Social Darwinism. Idealist in bourgeois universities tried to explain how the world works, why Europeans had "advanced" while it seems other "races" were still living in feudal and stone age. The capitalist/colonialist/imperialist accepted this ideas as offical to justify oppression of other "races". Then it becomes accepted in the wider oppressor community which have little idea of how the world works then the bourgeois acadamics of the 19th century.

It is similar when the bourgeois lie about socialist organisations. They are just protecting thier class interest by speading their class ideas through their hegonomy of media.

Marxist put things in the class context. Sure conspiracies do occur, but they are not the primary crime of the bourgeois. They only assist the bourgeois when things go wrong. Conspiracy theorist are anti materialist as they put conspiracy theories as a primary concern and push for public knowledge of government, military and private corporation's daily actons and decisions.

-------

I think this debate is USEFULL PROVIDED THAT IT MAKES US THINK more critically about what it is that we call conspiracy theory.

Just for the sake of argument, I could argue that yes, in certain historical cicumstances race was used in a way "where certain people met in a room" would it be better if they were discussin it while swimming in a pond-- and used race to divide class. After 1676 when colonial elites in Virginia were responding to Bacons Rebellion they explicitly decided to use race to prevent class unity.

WHat about 1988. Didnt Bushs Infamous Willie Horton commercial represent what might be called a "conspiracy" to use race to prevent the white working class Reagan Dems from returning to the dems. THey may have even been in a room.

The left have been trained by gatekeepers to just accept the Label conspiracy theory too uncritically. No , this doesnt mean that I dont think there are lot of insane "conspiracy theories" out there.

DO yourself a favor In 1992 it made history when Olier Stones JFK movie was attacked as conspiracy theory that JFK was going to get out of Vietnam. Read the books by historians of the last ten years. ALL OF THEM CONCLUDE THAT HE WAS! All of the books addressed to that particular question. Yet like trained sheep the so-called - left defend Time and Newsweek as if they were Das Capital. Probaly some will think all they have to do is type the word Oliver Stone and they will be making some point! > NOW HOW DID WE REACH THAT STATE?

People, Conspiracy Theory are 2 words.

[welshboy]

Nah, we've got quite a few 9/11 nuts in the UK. Mostly they seem to be led by ex-MI5 guy David Shayler, a complete loon who claims to be the reincarnation of King Arthur.:crying:

[invocation]

Conspiracies do happen, and only a lunatic would disagree. People work together in secret all the time, which is the definition. Take 9/11 for example. I believe 19 Muslim extremists secretly conspired to attack America, and they did. Does that make me a "conspiracy theorist"? Do I need government approval before it becomes fact? Am I loon for thinking the CIA conspired with Nixon in Watergate?

The label "conspiracy theorist" as a derogatory term is meaningless because it gives no indication of the amount of evidence for said conspiracy. Nowadays it's lazily used by close-minded people to rubbish opinions that differ from the majority's.

[invocation]

JFK assasination, blamed on Oswald had evidence, and eye witness account from a good few people

do we believe that one?Oswald without a doubt was a patsy. His coworker swears he was eating lunch in the canteen when it happened, there are also witnesses who actually SAW a shooter on the grassy knoll. Not to mention the 50 or so people who ran there after the shots.

[invocation]

Yes. See Penn & Teller's Bullshit episode on conspiracy theories for explanation.
Penn and Teller are tools. The research on that show is abysmal, it's all about entertainment rather than serious discussion. But what can you expect? They're Libertarians :rolleyes:

They even manage to deny man-made global warming in one episode.

[dirtycommiebastard]

I have here for you all an excerpt from an article a comrade of mine wrote concerning 'consipracy theories'. In my opinion, people believe that if we prove these theories, people will react and change the system ridding us of all the evil, yet everyday, the ruling class 'conspire', if you will, to maintain their positions of power. Whether or not 9/11 was planned or not is really of no concern. The concern is eliminating the material basis for such occurrences.

Marxism and conspiracy theories


«in all ideology men and their circumstances appear upside-down as in a camera obscura»
Karl Marx & Friedrich Engels, The German Ideology
Marxism is no conspiracy theory. This does not mean that we deny the existence of secret plots. Basically, every bourgeois or reformist political party or government is the public façade of a kind of secret plot, because its bodies hold private sessions where strategies in favour of the ruling class are worked out. George W. Bush will never literally declare "I have been given this position to defend the interests of the US ruling class", nevertheless this is exactly what he does, and he also states that by using cleverer expressions (as much as his notorious brain limitations allow him to compose clever sentences), like "It is my duty to protect the interests of the US economy and to implement business-friendly policies".
Is he conscious that the interests of the US bourgeoisie conflict with the interests of most of the US population (let alone the rest of the world)? We have no way of knowing, and in the end it is not relevant from our point of view. Quite often the ruling class believes its own propaganda. This does not change our attitude to them. In Mark Twain's A Connecticut Yankee at King Arthur's Court, Arthur is very naïve and clearly intimately convinced of the official ideology. He maintains his feudal beliefs also when he disguises himself as a poor man to visit the country incognito and ends up enslaved by a slave trader.
Smarter rulers, especially the ones with a past record of involvement in the Left and comprehension of Marxism, might as well be acting maliciously and consciously use ideology to deceive the downtrodden. In a way, this makes them more vicious and dangerous for us.
Occasionally, the bourgeoisie resorts to true plots. The WMD hoax is one such case. Probably, a lot of people in the US administration and military, as well as in the neo-con intellectual clique, knew perfectly well that there was no such thing as a weapon of mass destruction hidden somewhere in the Iraqi desert. Nevertheless, they managed to convince a lot of people (namely, a relevant percentage of Americans in 2002-2003) that this was the truth; some of those who were convinced by them, thus becoming unconscious tools for the spreading of this hoax, could also be people in leadership positions in the US state apparatus, military, politics, press, religious hierarchies etc. They were not informed by the White House that it was just a trick.
However, people in the top layers of society were keen to be convinced because of their social position, their class background, and their material interests, for believing it was useful to justify their own privileges and parasitic role in society. As Lenin underlined in Marxism and Revisionism:

«There is a well-known saying that if geometrical axioms affected human interests attempts would certainly be made to refute them.»
Similarly, what is the interest of the ruling layers of society is postulated as an established truth notwithstanding what reason has to say.
Regarding WMDs, also a lot of people in the bottom layers of society shared the same false belief of their masters, at that time. That is how any form of dominant idea works - it spills from above but affects the bottom too. Only a (large) minority of US workers and youth opposed the WMD hoax from the beginning, either because they were more informed or they were following their class instinct. Most of them changed their mind later, when the lies were more effectively exposed - basically, because no super-weapon was found anywhere half-buried in the sand, and it was not very easy to forge a fake one in the unstable conditions of the Iraqi occupation.
As the WMD plot shows, keeping a plot completely secret is extremely difficult, also for the most powerful and ramified bourgeois apparatus of the planet, the US imperialism and its British puppet. Sooner or later any plot will be exposed. It will expire and then rot - sometimes causing more harm than good to the cause it was forged for. "Weapon of mass destruction" has rapidly become a worldwide synonym for "government-forged lie". The propaganda machine turned into a boomerang.
It is much simpler and more useful to rely on the more subtle mechanics of standard propaganda and ideology-making, i.e. disclosed and overt lying instead of behind-the-scenes manoeuvring.

[invocation]

i will, Bill Hicks got me to notice a large wiff of bullshit,Kudos on listening to Bill Hicks.

[oujiQualm]

Im sure there are quite a lot of MI5 people typing about 9/11> so it is therefor logical to accept the official government conspiracy theory, which its authors have admitted was based on faulty time lines and information based on torture?

OR is this is site where people are just encouraged to type CONSPIRACY Theory a la Guru Chomsky?