make up our minds

[ChickenJoe]

I'm confused here...well how are we sopposed to bring about the revolution when it seems that we can't even make up our minds about what socialism and communism are I mean I here some socialists say no money while others say pay according to job... it just seems like we are all in splintered cells like leninism and stalinism and maoism all these isms whats going on??? I don't get it maybe I am just not reading into it enough.....help me please....

[DiggerII]

It's an unfortunate disease of the left dude. The left wants the most good for the most amount of people. The problem with that lies in that we have to mobilize everyone which is a beyond daunting task. The right is in the minority so they don't have to do a whole lot of organizing, they all just pursue profit. It was the same during the time of Marx and Engels. There were loads of splinter groups and Socialists all over Europe couldn't agree on anything. REvolution has to come unfortunately as somewhat of a last resort. We can all hang around and say that it needs to come but until the people feel and know the truth of oppression, they're not going to take a whole lot of action. Even then, they might prefer unionism over something more radical.

[Janus]

well how are we sopposed to bring about the revolution when it seems that we can't even make up our minds about what socialism and communism are I mean I here some socialists say no money while others say pay according to job
Proselytizing and agitating for class war is one thing, trying to figure out the minute details of a post-revolutionary society is another. None of us are future tellers and thus we are unsure of how exactly a future society should operate which is why we are currently debating it now.

As for the factionalism and sectarianism, you're definitely not the first to point it out or attempt to discuss it:
agenda (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=65509&hl=unity)
divisions (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=61996&hl=unity)
lack of unity (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=57729&hl=unity)
unity (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=56269&hl=unity)
unity (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=43781&hl=unity)

[RGacky3]

I think these little differences are easily overcome when it comes to action, when a strike is going on very few people are discussing at that moment "In a communist society will there be money"?, they are more asking, how can we hurt the Capitalist more and get more power for the workers.

The problem usually ends up when its no longer a broad class struggle but rather a few people leading and making the desicions, thats when splintering happens.

[ChickenJoe]

Hey thanks for all the input guys I really appreciate it....

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Revolutions happen when the ruling class cannot go on ruling in the same old way, and the working class won't let them -- to paraphrase Lenin.

We do not make them, workers do. We just have to make sure such events are successful - and that is where our differences on the far left emerge.

You are right though, unless we work through this, we will never see a successful revolution, as far as I can see -- and it is partly why all have so far failed.

But even that fact is contested!

[rouchambeau]

Because Teh Revolution ™ doesn't depend upon what a bunch of internet radicals say what communism and socialism are.

[Axel1917]

Splintered groups are nothing new. The Bolsheviks were a minority at first and had to combat all kinds of other groups. By sticking to correct theory, supplemented and tested by practice, the Bolsheviks managed to win over the majority of the workers and peasants and set up the first large scale proletarian dictatorship. The group that has the correct methods, ideas, method, with orientation to the working class, not fearing even the most "bourgeoisifed" traditional mass working class organizations is going to be the one that ends up winning over the proletarians and ending the rule of capitalism.

[Robo the Hobo]

I have realy not posted here for ages precisely because there is so much pent up frustration and somehow everyone takes it out on anyone who holds the wrong views...

If you dont beleive in violent revolution your borgiouse

If you dont agree with dictatorship of the prolatariat your borgiouse

If you think that our aims could be acheived by co-operation you are borgiouse and a class traitor

If you are religious any views you hold are vile and wrong.

Or whatever.


Seriously this forum has almost deccended into a massive hate filled time of taking the problems of society out on someone, prefferably someone you can insult to their face.


I may have exagerated, but seriously, this forum has some seriouse problems it needs to deal with - maby because it is too large to be a caring community.

[Labor Shall Rule]

Originally posted by Robo the [email protected] 27, 2007 08:24 pm
I have realy not posted here for ages precisely because there is so much pent up frustration and somehow everyone takes it out on anyone who holds the wrong views...

If you dont beleive in violent revolution your borgiouse

If you dont agree with dictatorship of the prolatariat your borgiouse

If you think that our aims could be acheived by co-operation you are borgiouse and a class traitor

If you are religious any views you hold are vile and wrong.

Or whatever.


Seriously this forum has almost deccended into a massive hate filled time of taking the problems of society out on someone, prefferably someone you can insult to their face.


I may have exagerated, but seriously, this forum has some seriouse problems it needs to deal with - maby because it is too large to be a caring community.
I don't think I have heard anyone call someone "bourgeois" on this forum, anywhere. Not even CriticizeEverythingAlways, Hiero, Henry, and Illegitimate have went that far.

I think PeacefulAnarchist went pretty far without being put in the Opposing Ideologies forum, and I am sure that there is still pacifists in this forum as we speak.

[Tower of Bebel]

I hope I'm right on this: Anton Pannekoek wrote once that the revolution will bring many so called splinter groups together (because there simply is'nt the time to argue). When the revolution fails, when it takes too much time for the revolution to succeed then revolutionary groups will fight each other again theoriticaly.

[Robo the Hobo]

Originally posted by RedDali+June 27, 2007 09:35 pm--> (RedDali @ June 27, 2007 09:35 pm)
Robo the [email protected] 27, 2007 08:24 pm
I have realy not posted here for ages precisely because there is so much pent up frustration and somehow everyone takes it out on anyone who holds the wrong views...

If you dont beleive in violent revolution your borgiouse

If you dont agree with dictatorship of the prolatariat your borgiouse

If you think that our aims could be acheived by co-operation you are borgiouse and a class traitor

If you are religious any views you hold are vile and wrong.

Or whatever.


Seriously this forum has almost deccended into a massive hate filled time of taking the problems of society out on someone, prefferably someone you can insult to their face.


I may have exagerated, but seriously, this forum has some seriouse problems it needs to deal with - maby because it is too large to be a caring community.
I don't think I have heard anyone call someone "bourgeois" on this forum, anywhere. Not even CriticizeEverythingAlways, Hiero, Henry, and Illegitimate have went that far.

I think PeacefulAnarchist went pretty far without being put in the Opposing Ideologies forum, and I am sure that there is still pacifists in this forum as we speak. [/b]
Maby it would be more fair to say that you condemn virtualy everything outside your own groups. I haven't been here for a while, so I mixed two things up. What I said relates probably better to the way that many seem to condemn the actions of anyone who doesnt oppenly shout I AM A COMMUNIST or whatever over the rooftops, but may be a slightly less revolutionary socialist. Sure, many people may not go far enough, but to portray Hugo Chavez, (something many people on the forum has done,) as somehow an enemy, or for that matter as some people have done anyone who is not proletariat in orrigin is crazy.

Not to say that their ideas are perfect, but I was seeing people inside or outside the forum being condemned virtualy every second post.